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Yeah we have some pretty strong restrictions for feats involving light, that can be read here: Laser/Light Beam Dodging Feats
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Sword Art Online Speed Downgrade.
- Thread starter Omega613
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To clarify the differences between your approach and ours, it appears for you, a "Light Ray" denotes a very strict category from what I'm understanding. If something is categorized as a Light Ray, it must be moving at light speed to match its category.
For us, a Light Ray is a visual representation of what something looks like and we do not necessarily care about how it looks like. We care about its... Well, everything. Thus how it looks is just one of the countless indicators of what it actually is. Thus whether we describe how it looks as a "Light Ray" is of little significance in comparison to how much meaning it has when you guys say it is a "Light Ray".
That distinction is the main reason why I am trying to highlight this "Light Ray" does not fit your definition of a "Light Ray" as it does not possess the properties you guys require in what you deem a "Light Ray". Think of it like American English vs British English. We have the same words here and there, but they come with different connotations and implications.
For us, a Light Ray is a visual representation of what something looks like and we do not necessarily care about how it looks like. We care about its... Well, everything. Thus how it looks is just one of the countless indicators of what it actually is. Thus whether we describe how it looks as a "Light Ray" is of little significance in comparison to how much meaning it has when you guys say it is a "Light Ray".
That distinction is the main reason why I am trying to highlight this "Light Ray" does not fit your definition of a "Light Ray" as it does not possess the properties you guys require in what you deem a "Light Ray". Think of it like American English vs British English. We have the same words here and there, but they come with different connotations and implications.
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I seriously doubt that Agnaa is being biased honestly
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Not thinking in participate, just want to say that I understand why he give like, the comments of gamerturk have a lot of logic and his language is very good, so I don't think just give him a like is a reason to be biased. This was the only think I'm planning to comment here because of lack of knowledge.
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I like comments that I think make good points. I've liked comments from many members in this thread, including you.
That's just an indication of whether I like the experience of watching a series or not. Usually I stick to debating verses I enjoy. Honestly I'm only here because the drama in the RVT made me wonder who was making correct arguments (I did the same for a LoL speed thread a while back), I've also stuck around to try and smooth over how this all applies to our site's standards.
No offense to you but you and Gamerturk are both pretty new to the site and, how can I say this, I don't want either of you to think that stuff the other one says is necessarily a part of our site's standards? Like you've said that certain stuff should be infinite speed when it definitely shouldn't be, and I don't want Gamerturk coming away thinking we accept stuff like that.
I try my best to not be biased. I may be occasionally seen applying scrutiny to series I don't like, but I'm always applying that much scrutiny, or more, to series I do like.
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Fair enough. Bad on my end.
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Are we absolutely sure there aren't any speed feats above Peak Human? We didn't think there were any for Warriors above Superhuman either until we calced Ravenpaw reacting to a snake
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Mind you, my intentions here is just providing correct information, which should be to your benefit as well. Personally speaking, I do not care about strictly rating characters or abilities and the like. I feel categorizing can often lead to oversimplifying and homogeny as a result. However that does not change the fact that your categories still do benefit from factually correct information, and that is why I am here for. To provide that information and clarify circumstances that come with the standardizing process that comes with categorizing.
For example, the thought process I have seen from some people is:
Same thing here with Light Rays. They are called Light Rays as a visual descriptor, because that is the clearest way you can visualize a straight line shooting in your mind. However, the way it behaves does not fit your category of "Light Ray" because it simply does not behave as one. It explicitly acts like a sniper bullet, so much so that that is exactly what it does in War of Underworld. That is the distinction I am trying to make. Separate "How it looks" and "What it is", because looking at your charts, you guys too care about what something really is, rather than how it looks.
For example, the thought process I have seen from some people is:
Which I believe has resulted in a lot of miscategorization in the SAO side here. We are talking about literature, the most powerful tool it has is to use words creatively to provide you a very vibrant storytelling, which can easily mislead a lot of people when not paying attention. That is also why I clarified our approach. We care about "everything" when deciding what something is. And if I'm being honest, that is the idea behind your approach here too, it's just that some people just want to reach quick conclusions so they do it backwards. The discussion here about speed is the confirmation of that. You have a clear chart as to which speed fits into which category. So the idea here too is indeed:
Example:
You established a clear stardard of what is a Super Human and regardless what the text states, if the character does not meet that requirement, they are not a Super Human by your standards.
Same thing here with Light Rays. They are called Light Rays as a visual descriptor, because that is the clearest way you can visualize a straight line shooting in your mind. However, the way it behaves does not fit your category of "Light Ray" because it simply does not behave as one. It explicitly acts like a sniper bullet, so much so that that is exactly what it does in War of Underworld. That is the distinction I am trying to make. Separate "How it looks" and "What it is", because looking at your charts, you guys too care about what something really is, rather than how it looks.
Fanatio does not have any other speed related scenes. Her major appearances in the series is limited to her fight against Kirito in the Central Cathedral and then her fight against the Giants and Sigurosig. The latter does not feature any faster action than the former, so defining Fanatio's speed, it does not help. In regards to the Heaven Piercing Blade's attack, it showcases much better how it actually works like a simple sniper bullet.
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Bullets shot from a Sniper Rifle generally move at Supersonic.
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I mean, the ray is prety much light.
A quote:
“As it's a highly valued commodity made by pouring melted silver onto glass, I doubt there would be many opportunities for inhabitants outside the capital to lay their eyes on it, but... that tool is able to reflect Solus's light almost perfectly. I wonder if you understand... that is, the reason behind why the area shone on by the reflected light becomes twice as hot. —A hundred and thirty years from now in the past, her eminence, the highest minister, confiscated silver coins and other items made from silver, and commanded glassmakers to create a thousand large panes of glass. They were for an offensive art that required no chanting... an experiment labeled «weaponry» though, you see. The thousand mirrors, lined up to form a half circle in the cathedral's front yard, reflected the midsummer Solus's light and focused it onto a single spot, bringing forth a pure white inferno. That melted a large rock the size of a man in mere minutes.”
Another quote talking about it:
“—In the end, the eminent highest minister judged that it required too much preparation to get it into a battle-worthy state. However, she mentioned it would be too much of a pity for all of it to go to waste, and with her divine miracles, she gathered every one of the thousand large mirrors, tempered them, and created a single sword. That was this sacred instrument, the «Heaven Piercing Sword». Do you understand, criminal? What pierced through your abdomen and leg was the might of Sun Goddess Solus herself!”
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DMUA, when I said "pretty much" I pretty much meant IT IS LIGHT
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This quote is indeed talking about Light Rays, as it is the quote explaining the past of the Heaven Piercing Blade. It is talking about the Mirrors reflecting the light of Solus. How actual weapons function is different. There is no sunlight in the Great Hall of Ghostly Light, so if the weapon was still functioning exactly the same as the prior mirrors, it simply would not work at all.
Divine weapons' Memory Abilities simply unleash Spatial Resources. In the case of Heaven Piercing Blade, it is a blast of Luminous Elements. It is not the actual light of Solus.
You do realize this is just how they justify it with the religion they believe in right? Sun Goddess Solus is the creation of Quinella. There is no actual "Sun Goddess", there is only the Solus Superaccount. There is no such thing as "the might of Solus".
Again, this all goes back to the backwards logic I mentioned earlier.
You are looking at how it is described to enforce how it behaves. Whereas we know how it behaves and it is not what you claim it is solely based on a visual descriptor.
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This seems pretty classic action terminology. Don't you guys come across these quite often here? Instant barely anytime actually means 0.01 seconds, it just means "very quickly" without any clear description of how fast it actually was."Pretty much" doesn't cut it.
Also I guess there is one superhuman speed feat brought to my attention but I feel like may not go far beyond that.
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@Ion I don't think those statements make the weapon abide by our speed for considering stuff lightspeed.
@gamerturk Yeah, we usually consider "an instant" to be "1 second", 15 m/s is Superhuman under our system.
@gamerturk Yeah, we usually consider "an instant" to be "1 second", 15 m/s is Superhuman under our system.
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15 meters a second is good for Superhuman
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Why are you derailing with a verse that im pretty sure isn't even on the wiki due to utter lack of combat feats
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I see, got it. I would just chalk it up to classic action lingo, but if that is a standard, then I can't say anything about it.
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By the way, I was speaking with AKM and he notified me that this thread was completely about retracting the FTL statement from Kirito and Mechadragons due to false information as source, when I joined, it had already become about Fanatio and Kirito iirc. How do you guys usually proceed with commits?
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We have volunteers edit the profiles accordingly, if the pages are locked a Content Moderator or Sysop can unlock the profile for editing and then relock the profile afterword, this is an excellent chance to get you used to how editing works here
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Luminous Elements are light, you know? Even your very own wiki has it as that.
This part has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. And yes, I know that, again, nothing to do with what I said and not relevant.
It behaves like a ray tho, how do you think a ray behave? It literally goes in straight line, like, always.
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How do you guys usually proceed with commits?
It's pretty ad-hoc but it's sorta like:
Once a change is accepted, anyone competent enough is free to edit the profiles accordingly, linking the thread where it was accepted in the edit summary.
Sometimes pages are locked to edits, in which case a content mod/sysop will need to temporarily unlock them, or apply the changes themselves.
It's pretty ad-hoc but it's sorta like:
- Present a change.
- Discuss until it's accepted, rejected, or a compromise is accepted.
- If there's not universal consensus, sometimes a consensus in the vast majority will get accepted.
- If both sides have valid arguments, sometimes it's decided by vote.
- If things get dicey, sometimes only staff (and ex-staff/users who declined staff/trusted experts on the series) opinions are counted.
- Worst comes to worst, our 3-4 bureaucrats can decide what will happen.
Once a change is accepted, anyone competent enough is free to edit the profiles accordingly, linking the thread where it was accepted in the edit summary.
Sometimes pages are locked to edits, in which case a content mod/sysop will need to temporarily unlock them, or apply the changes themselves.
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Elements are elements. They are not objects you can relate to real things. They are literally "magic energy". "Luminous" means "Shiny", not "Light". All elements have this property of being named after how they look. Umbral Element, literally "shadowy/dark looking element", there isn't a metal element, there is a metallic element, an element that looks like metal etc etc. In the end, all elements behave the same, because how they behave depends on how you discharge them, not what element they are. Their effects are the only thing relying on their element type.
So, Luminous Element literally behaves exactly the same as other elements. You Discharge without added commands, it explodes. "Arrow Shape, Discharge" and you send it off flying as an arrow, the same way you would send off a metallic element etc etc. You have a completely wrong idea of what elements are.
I'm sorry, I tried to pick what could have been relevant to the best of my abilities. I do not see anything else that would be relevant to anything in that quote.
If a bullet had 0 material property, it too would go in a straight line. A actual ray however, compared to a bullet, would be countless times faster because it would actually be light. It isn't. The projectile shooting from the Heaven Piercing Blade has noticable travel time, so much so that someone far away can see the glint of the show, get scared, stumble and fall down, until the attack actually reaches them. That is the definitive proof that it does not behave like a "Light Ray" as you would describe here.
It is not called "Light". It is called "Luminous" element, which literally means "Shiny".
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Lasers/light beams are only accepted as real if they meet, at a minimum, a few of these criteria:
I think this case only meets a single criteria. That being reflected off a mirror. That's not enough.
- The beam refracts in a new material, such as a liquid or...
- The beam diffuses in a reasonably realistic way or reflects off a material that it can be expected to, such as a non-magical mirror.
- The beam is called lightspeed by reliable sources.
- It is stated to be composed/consisting of photons or light itself, again by a reliable source.
- It has its origin at a realistic source of light, such as a camera.
I think this case only meets a single criteria. That being reflected off a mirror. That's not enough.
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I'm sorry, what? I legit don't get what point you're making here. "Elements are elements" doesn't mean anything neither in favour or against this, the light being "magical" (which, mind you, Sacred Arts and magic aren't the same thing) isn't a disqualifier if it has other requierments (which is the discussion) - and all that explanation of how the discharge command is is completely irrelevant to it being light or not.
I mean, yes, but bullets have nothing to do with the argument here. So your argument here is that ANY beam is automatically disqualified from being light speed if it has visible travel? I'm very sure that's nowhere on our standards, or else calcs like this one wouldn't be used on profiles.
It's called 光素 in Japanese - First kanji literally is the word light.
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Look, even if we assume that it's not actual light (giving you benefit of the doubt here), since we don't know how fast it's going, we need to observe it's behavior VISUALLY. In the anime (which is an OFFICIAL ADAPTATION of the source), we see the "light rays" fly in straight lines, burn on contact, bounce off reflective surfaces, and was literally made using mirrors. So even if it's not actual light, it's at the very least comparable to it, and therefore, should scale accordingly. And btw, this is not me highballing or anything like that, THAT'S LITERALLY WHAT YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DO IN THAT SCENARIO, like in any verse, with any character. Now if you excuse me, I'm outta here. The way I see it, this entire CRT is costing me brain cells and the fact it's still going is ******* sad tbh. Do whatever you want a this point. I don't care anymore. Have a great day, and stay safe out there. Peace
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This really isn't worth getting worked up over...
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Sacred Arts is system commands. However most of these require the use of Spatial Resources that are condensed into elements. That is indeed a magic system. Limited amount of Spatial Resources around to use that indicate how much you can actually conjure most Sacred Arts. If there are no Spatial Resources around, then you cannot use many Sacred Arts that require these Spatial Resources.
Memory Abilities of weapons can conjure these spatial resources on their own, in expense of draining their durability in return, hence why they need to be sheathed to recover their durability after using Memory Abilities, because once sheathed, Divine Weapons absorb spatial resources around to heal themselves over time. Like, there is a full blown magic system integrated into the entire Underworld, how can you deny the existence of it?
I'll be as clear as possible. It is shooting concentrated Luminous Elements. It is not an actual ray of light. Memory Abilities imitate the "Memory of the Weapon", a fancy way of saying "What the object was before being transformed/transmorphed into one". Again, as explained above, they utilize their durability to unleash Spatial Resources relating to their original existence.
Except Japanese raw also uses the actual English words rather than the Japanese approximations. It's Sacred Arts, it uses the Sacred Script, which is English, written in Katakana. If you look carefully, our descriptions on the wiki use Furigana. There are 2 main uses for Furigana. It either is a helping tool for people to be able to read the Kanji below it, or it overwrites the meaning of the Kanji, aka Kanji is just there to provide a Japanese approximation and not the actual meaning.
So, the word used in the Japanese raw is ルミナス, read as Ruminasu. If you know enough Engrish, you'll recognize it is literally "Luminous". 光素 you mentioned is an japanese approximation for meaning, as the furigana over it overwrites it. How do we know it overwrites it for certain? Very simple. Because it is clear the Furigana is not there as reading aid, because ルミナス (Ruminasu) reads completely differently to 光素 (Hikari so/su/moto). (some sources state it would be "kouso", however that too apears to be an aproximation, as Kouso means Photon and uses a separate Kanji after 光, but that does not change the point of Furigana not matching the Kanji reading) If it was reading aid and not an overwrite, then the Furigana would spell ひかり そ/す/もと, which as you can see, it does not. And now, let's get to the meaning. Hikari I'm sure many of you are familiar as the word for "Light". 素 (so) is an addition that turn the word Light into "Based on Light, it's nature is of Light, it's element is of Light", it is literally saying "This element is based on how Light is, it is shiny and stuff", thus it is Luminous. You see all elements have the 素 kanji attached to their Japanese approximations. Because none of the elements are a specific material. They are just based on that material and are their own thing. And then what you do with the element is up to you, but what you can do is irrelevant of the specific element type, as their behavior is what you command it to as mentioned earlier, based on how you choose to discharge it. The only difference is their effect.
I recommend refraining from making assumptions on a language you do not know very well, both in a linguistic sense, as well as on the writing conventions of the language. I have actually seen you do it very often in your history and naturally, many people have the common courtesy to not speak about a language they do not know, so they do not challenge you and believe you instead thinking you know the language better than they do, leading to a lot of confusions. I will of course call you out on it when I see it, however it needs to be mentioned I too am just a Japanese learner at the moment and at times, I will just be going to the SAO Fan Translators Defan and Gsimenas for clarifications myself.
I too would rather not go in depth into Japanese topics, so please refrain from talking about things you aren't certain of yourself.
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Ok, for the moment, I'll just say those entire last paragraphs were completely uncalled for. Talking down people about basic Japanese linguistics when you admit you aren't fluent is one thing, but assuming that anyone else doesn't know about such things is completely unnecesary addo. I KNOW the kanji written below the kana isn't read aloud - that's the entire reason a kana is written over it, in this case, giving it its English pronunciation; this is always the case across these cases, the kana above is what's read, leaving the kanji below as a Japanese meaning to it. This is extremely basic knowledge of Japanese and the fact you talk me down on the assumption that I don't know such a thing, only for then to follow it up by admitting that you yourself aren't fluent, is downright flabbergasting.
Chasekilleen
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This thread
Curb your ban
Curb your ban
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I agree it was very uncalled for no reason to talk down or insult someone's intellect. You might be a mod or a YouTuber but that doesn't give you any right to do so.
I would suggest putting the sentence or wtv in the translation requests to have a person who is well versed in the language give context.
I would suggest putting the sentence or wtv in the translation requests to have a person who is well versed in the language give context.
Vietthai96
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I don't think he insult Ionliosite, just more like a harsh and blunt with his words. I think you guys exaggrated it slightly too high
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Is this stuff about "whether light being a beam qualifies as light" or "luminous element" really that important when this breakdown of a relevant feat shows it both being an aimdodge, and explicitly taking longer than light would to travel any reasonable estimate of the distance?
There's a lot of points in this thread where y'all seem to get caught up in the weeds when that doesn't have much to do with the substantive arguments.
There's a lot of points in this thread where y'all seem to get caught up in the weeds when that doesn't have much to do with the substantive arguments.
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That’s for Human Realm Arc/Post-Goblin Fight Kirito
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