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Super Sonic Rebuff
- Thread starter The_Smashor
- Start date
- Status
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Oh yeah there's no doubt that the FEB is inferior to the Chaos Emeralds.
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I doubt that the FEB was active after what happened in Battle.
The Eclipse Cannon was stated to pierce stars, but its just another form of translation since in the jap. version planets and stars are referred as the same, so its more likely that it can only pierce planets, which is not higher than 5-A, same if the piercing stars was considered.
The Eclipse Cannon was stated to pierce stars, but its just another form of translation since in the jap. version planets and stars are referred as the same, so its more likely that it can only pierce planets, which is not higher than 5-A, same if the piercing stars was considered.
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I'm going to step in and DragonMaster is right that the spammed Sonic threads do need to stop. I can also agree that both sides have been getting annoying, and the thread for the 2-B stuff should be reserved there, so I'll refrain from that one. But here's the reason no one is 4-A.
For one, the FEB is not consistent with anyone at all period. It's a one time weapon used solely to wake up Emerl and not once was it ever used for combat. So we don't reverse power scale to anyone at all. It took unknown amounts of prep time in order to perform and was never created again upon the initial use. And the Egg Blaster was probably just a glass cannon.
Chaos Emeralds do fluctuate and I agree with the low end and high end feats being for the variable instead of just listing random mid end feats. But here's the thing, there are many end game bosses who peak at 5-A even with all 7 Chaos Emeralds including Dark Gaia, Perfect Chaos, that Sonic Advance feat, ect. And even Chaos Emeralds fewer than 7 have no feats exceeding 5-B; the Eclipse Cannon needed 6 Chaos Emeralds to perform a 5-B feat, and 5 Chaos Emeralds to perform a 6-B feat.
Now as for the Eggman generally using the Chaos Emeralds as a battery, while that is true, it doesn't mean he always uses them solely for combat. And just because they're used as a battery doesn't mean they scale to the full chaos Emeralds. A kid isn't star level just because their gameboy has a solar battery. Or using Geothermal energy doesn't make you Planet level. Most of the time, Eggman uses Chaos Emeralds for non combat applicable stuff such as Power plants rather than just using them all for pure destruction. It's the reason the FEB is irrelevant is because it's not as controlled or multi purposed as the Chaos Emeralds rather than assumed pure firepower.
Eggman has used Chaos Emeralds for Tier 2 stuff before yes, but there's also many other times where we needed all 7 just to perform feats that don't exceed 5-A. Chaos Emeralds still fluctuate often, and they often times don't always exceed 5-A so should still be relevant. And the weakened Super Hedgehogs have also struggled with the 5-A stuff such as when Shadow almost died from the Eclipse Cannon. Additionally, Eggman has enough self awareness to realise the Egg Blaster if it were too close to the Earth would just be suicide. Which would be meaningless to his plan if he plans to rule over the world. He can't do that if he's not alive. There's also the possibility that the Egg Blaster would one-shot all those 5-A bosses and the lower end Super Hedgehogs for all we know, so there should just be no assumptions at all. So the 4-A Egg Blaster is simply not consistent, was a one time outside help satellite weapons that pretty much destroys itself upon use, and is like the most forgettable thing in the scaling. It would be the least assumptive thing to just not use it in the scaling whatsoever since there's lack of in depth detail about how it would work against anyone.
So 4-A shouldn't really be used at all, and it should just be a 5-A to 2-C if the Solaris stuff is rejected. But if the Solaris stuff is accepted, it will be 5-A to 2-B. But that's reserved for the other thread. But I think we can all agree that all this Sonic threads are really tiring for every reason said.
For one, the FEB is not consistent with anyone at all period. It's a one time weapon used solely to wake up Emerl and not once was it ever used for combat. So we don't reverse power scale to anyone at all. It took unknown amounts of prep time in order to perform and was never created again upon the initial use. And the Egg Blaster was probably just a glass cannon.
Chaos Emeralds do fluctuate and I agree with the low end and high end feats being for the variable instead of just listing random mid end feats. But here's the thing, there are many end game bosses who peak at 5-A even with all 7 Chaos Emeralds including Dark Gaia, Perfect Chaos, that Sonic Advance feat, ect. And even Chaos Emeralds fewer than 7 have no feats exceeding 5-B; the Eclipse Cannon needed 6 Chaos Emeralds to perform a 5-B feat, and 5 Chaos Emeralds to perform a 6-B feat.
Now as for the Eggman generally using the Chaos Emeralds as a battery, while that is true, it doesn't mean he always uses them solely for combat. And just because they're used as a battery doesn't mean they scale to the full chaos Emeralds. A kid isn't star level just because their gameboy has a solar battery. Or using Geothermal energy doesn't make you Planet level. Most of the time, Eggman uses Chaos Emeralds for non combat applicable stuff such as Power plants rather than just using them all for pure destruction. It's the reason the FEB is irrelevant is because it's not as controlled or multi purposed as the Chaos Emeralds rather than assumed pure firepower.
Eggman has used Chaos Emeralds for Tier 2 stuff before yes, but there's also many other times where we needed all 7 just to perform feats that don't exceed 5-A. Chaos Emeralds still fluctuate often, and they often times don't always exceed 5-A so should still be relevant. And the weakened Super Hedgehogs have also struggled with the 5-A stuff such as when Shadow almost died from the Eclipse Cannon. Additionally, Eggman has enough self awareness to realise the Egg Blaster if it were too close to the Earth would just be suicide. Which would be meaningless to his plan if he plans to rule over the world. He can't do that if he's not alive. There's also the possibility that the Egg Blaster would one-shot all those 5-A bosses and the lower end Super Hedgehogs for all we know, so there should just be no assumptions at all. So the 4-A Egg Blaster is simply not consistent, was a one time outside help satellite weapons that pretty much destroys itself upon use, and is like the most forgettable thing in the scaling. It would be the least assumptive thing to just not use it in the scaling whatsoever since there's lack of in depth detail about how it would work against anyone.
So 4-A shouldn't really be used at all, and it should just be a 5-A to 2-C if the Solaris stuff is rejected. But if the Solaris stuff is accepted, it will be 5-A to 2-B. But that's reserved for the other thread. But I think we can all agree that all this Sonic threads are really tiring for every reason said.
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I'll say at this point I don't really care about 4-A. Everyone on the thread agreed with Solaris being 2-B so that will happen either way, the debate is about the hedgehogs scaling.
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A one time feat doesn't invalidate anything,logically the FEB should be quite inferior to the Chaos Energy Cannon,which likely took even more prep time to create. There's heavy implication that the Emeralds are above everything in the verse barring the Master Emerald. There's no reason not to scale the low end above any weapon crafted without them. Saying something doesn't work because A feat/character/weapon has never interacted with others is an insane Double Standard as there are literal thousands of examples in Power Scaling that utilize the same assumptions. Also,bad analogies are bad.
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- Thread starter
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Personally, I feel like there needs to be a revision in Varies allowing any tiers inbetween the minimum and the maximum to be used. Otherwise, there's literally no point in it.
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Considering the fact that the Chaos Energy Canon actually has a feat at full power that is leagues behind the Final Egg Blaster, it proves my point more that the FEB is indeed one of Eggman's top things. Eggman has built robots to contend with Super Sonic before. This thing on the other hand has never interacted with ANYONE. It wouldn't be a double standard at all. When you see a "should", in the best case scenario to prove your point, there'd be a possibly. But 90% of the time, there's legitimate instances of somebody doing something to another, giving an idea where they are on the food chain. Yet no Super Form, or anything for that matter, does jack to the FEB.
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Just because Eggman actively seeks out the Chaos Emeralds doesn't mean it 24/7 has more firepower than the FEB. And the fact that the FEB has never been used for combat and is heavily implied to be one of the most dangerous weapons Eggman ever built with or without Chaos Emeralds basically proves it doesn't belong in the scaling. It is not a double standard, but rather characters don't scale from incidents that were never feats to begin with. And again, no one ever tanked it and it would have easily obliterated everyone if it were ever used close to the earth; this includes Eggman himself and Emerald. There is no proof that Metallord has the durability to withstand the FEB or better yet AP to scale from that.
Furthermore, as Cal explained, Eclipse Cannon even with all 7 Chaos Emeralds is clearly inferior to the FEB, so that proves our points even further. And yes, Variable tiers are only given if their's in depth lore that the power of character or items fluctuate back and forth, but Chaos Emeralds do.
Furthermore, as Cal explained, Eclipse Cannon even with all 7 Chaos Emeralds is clearly inferior to the FEB, so that proves our points even further. And yes, Variable tiers are only given if their's in depth lore that the power of character or items fluctuate back and forth, but Chaos Emeralds do.
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FWIW, in IDW the Chaos Emeralds being variable is directly mentioned.
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- Thread starter
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That's...
non...
canon....
non...
canon....
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The argument that the FEB is greater than the Chaos Energy Cannon sounds like an Attack Potency/AoE issue,why would Eggman build something that needs the Chaos Emeralds when he can build something hundreds of trillons of times stronger on his own? Why does he seek Dark Gaia Force or any Eldritch power at all when he can craft weapons far more terrifying? Why did does he soil himself everytime said power turns against him? It's not a matter of utility when he can make much smaller,swifter weapons that can "contend" with Super States on the fly,his weapons are inferior to Chaos Emeralds no matter which one it is period.
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True, but it works the same way in the games.The Smashor said:
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The IDW comics are very VERY closely overseen & mandated by Sonic Team this time,they can be used as reference.
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If a Super State were to face the FEB,they would deflect it due to the wish of being stronger to begin with,that's how the Emeralds work. Why do you think Super Sonic has a different move set almost every time he transforms,it's basically a form of Reactive Evolution. 4-A isn't out the equation,especially when said Reactive Evolution can skyrocket them to tier 2.
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Show it happening and you'd have an argument there. Super Sonic has a different moveset every time because he just does. Fire Kirby having a different move set between Adventure, Super Star, and RtDL doesn't mean it has reactive evolution.
It's not an AoE fallacy. It's an anti feat. Massive difference. It VERY clearly shows AoE with it being a planet bust and all.
It's not an AoE fallacy. It's an anti feat. Massive difference. It VERY clearly shows AoE with it being a planet bust and all.
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Cal has a point about Super Sonic's moveset. He has varying movesets because different games want you to use a different strategy in order to beat the final boss.
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The problem is, Eggman doesn't usually build machines anywhere near the FEB's power, he mostly just builds a bunch of fodder 9-B, and some of his strongest mechs are Tier 6 scaling from Base Sonic. And with or without chaos Emeralds, Eclipse Cannon lacks any capability exceeding 5-A at all. The FEB may have taking many years to build and is pretty much destroyed by the time it was used once, he probably doesn't even have durability exceeding Tier 6. Its purpose is too specific and is pure destruction with no stamina or power.
Chaos Emeralds very from 5-A to Tier 2, none of the low end end game bosses such as Dark Gaia, Metal Overlord, Perfect Chaos, and Devil Doom have any reason to even be 4-A, and the best feats between any of them is really 5-A. It's also consistent with the fact that all of them outright considerer planet level stuff threatening. Most importantly, Eggman cannot make anything beyond Tier 6 that's in his control without Chaos Emeralds; FEB is not something Eggman can properly control. That's the real reason he seeks Chaos Emeralds.
And yeah, as Cal said, Super Sonic fluctuates back and forth not just in terms of raw power, but in terms of how the abilities work, so it cannot be assumed they have reactive power level or anything like that. It's just a small fraction of what the Chaos Emeralds have. I also do need to note that weapon/vehicle scaling don't always work the same way character scaling does; characters may be more linear when it comes to scaling, but weapons and vehicles are usually far from linear.
Chaos Emeralds very from 5-A to Tier 2, none of the low end end game bosses such as Dark Gaia, Metal Overlord, Perfect Chaos, and Devil Doom have any reason to even be 4-A, and the best feats between any of them is really 5-A. It's also consistent with the fact that all of them outright considerer planet level stuff threatening. Most importantly, Eggman cannot make anything beyond Tier 6 that's in his control without Chaos Emeralds; FEB is not something Eggman can properly control. That's the real reason he seeks Chaos Emeralds.
And yeah, as Cal said, Super Sonic fluctuates back and forth not just in terms of raw power, but in terms of how the abilities work, so it cannot be assumed they have reactive power level or anything like that. It's just a small fraction of what the Chaos Emeralds have. I also do need to note that weapon/vehicle scaling don't always work the same way character scaling does; characters may be more linear when it comes to scaling, but weapons and vehicles are usually far from linear.
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Eggman didn't use the CEC to planet bust,he used it to wake up Dark Gaia,who has more power than him or his prep,clearly dictated by the fact that he needed much planning for it,it's not an anti-feat because that wasn't the intention.
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Super Sonic has some kind of Wishing/Reactive Evolution because it happens at the 11th hour when he turns "thoughts to power" or "dreams to reality" via the Chaos Emeralds. It's also after he witnesses the final bosses' capabilities/transformations,so it fits the bill(maybe,cause I suck at debating & you guys prove it all the time)
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@ED What you're describing sounds like Empowerment.
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- Thread starter
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Yeah, it actually does sound like that.
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Why does everyone keep saying the FEB can only be used once? Ultimate Emerl points it at Earth immediately after Eggman fired it,the stakes of the final battle was Emerl was going to fire it in 30 seconds,there's zero implication that it can only be used once.
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^^Thank you! Seriously, my main beef with the whole "Varies" thing is the "to". When I think of saying "this to this", I immediately think of having to go through everything in between. For example, if you're traveling from Chicago to Canada, you'd have to go through all the other locations between point A (Chicago) and point C (Canada) before you can reach Canada and you could make some stops in between. I feel like that "to" is very off-putting and should instead either be replaced with a comma or "and".The Smashor said:
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Bump
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Well now that the dumpster fire that is Maginaryworld stuff is done, we can now jump back into this.
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I just want to point out that we know how long it took Eggman to built the FEB, since he built it to attract Emerl to his side and we see the project on Eggman's lab in Knuckles story, so it took from the beginning of the game to the final story.
Since Eggman took the entire game it's fair to assume that other machines that he built that also are final bosses that took the entire game to be built are also just as powerful as the FEB, like the final bosses of Sonic Advance 1 and 2
Since Eggman took the entire game it's fair to assume that other machines that he built that also are final bosses that took the entire game to be built are also just as powerful as the FEB, like the final bosses of Sonic Advance 1 and 2
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We don't exactly know how long Sonic Battle lasts though. Anyway, regardless of how long it took Eggman to build the FEB, it can't be assumed to scale to every single weapon he creates. Honestly, that's pretty much the same thing as assuming every single Tank or Plane Russia makes is as powerful as the Tsar Bomba. Final Egg Blaster was literally a one time weapon that Eggman was never been shown to construct a weapon on that level.
Furthermore, most of Eggman's robots are only 9-B with a lot of his strongest Mechs and Robots not even being planetary or Tier 6 at best. Or heck, even some other creations made by him or his Grandfather were often dependant of having all 7 Chaos Emeralds. The Eclipse Cannon required 5 Chaos Emeralds just to perform a 6-B feat that was well intended for sheer destruction, and 6 did a partial Moon busting feat that was later recalc'd at Low 5-B. And once again, it's common that Eggman needed all 7 to even perform Tier 5 feats in the first place, making one random 4-A feat very inconsistent with the regular showings.
Furthermore, Eggman himself doesn't actually know the full power of the Chaos Emeralds. Like that one time he thought Metal Overlord was actually stronger than the Chaos Emeralds; note that this was well before any Tier 2 feats existed in Sonic. And he literally describes FEB as being the most power invention he ever created; thus making it much stronger than Metal Overlord, Eclipse Cannon, ect. So the "Low end" Super Hedgehogs don't have any reason to scale from it and neither does Emerl. They never took a direct hit from it, and something Eggman considered stronger than Chaos Emeralds is also way weaker than FEB showcases that FEB shouldn't even be used in the power scaling.
I also still need to point out that the FEB is literally designed for pure destruction when other technologies are literally 100% incapable of doing anything remotely close to that. I also have gone on record to with how character and weapon scalings are often to nonlinear and inconsistent to be taken seriously.
Furthermore, most of Eggman's robots are only 9-B with a lot of his strongest Mechs and Robots not even being planetary or Tier 6 at best. Or heck, even some other creations made by him or his Grandfather were often dependant of having all 7 Chaos Emeralds. The Eclipse Cannon required 5 Chaos Emeralds just to perform a 6-B feat that was well intended for sheer destruction, and 6 did a partial Moon busting feat that was later recalc'd at Low 5-B. And once again, it's common that Eggman needed all 7 to even perform Tier 5 feats in the first place, making one random 4-A feat very inconsistent with the regular showings.
Furthermore, Eggman himself doesn't actually know the full power of the Chaos Emeralds. Like that one time he thought Metal Overlord was actually stronger than the Chaos Emeralds; note that this was well before any Tier 2 feats existed in Sonic. And he literally describes FEB as being the most power invention he ever created; thus making it much stronger than Metal Overlord, Eclipse Cannon, ect. So the "Low end" Super Hedgehogs don't have any reason to scale from it and neither does Emerl. They never took a direct hit from it, and something Eggman considered stronger than Chaos Emeralds is also way weaker than FEB showcases that FEB shouldn't even be used in the power scaling.
I also still need to point out that the FEB is literally designed for pure destruction when other technologies are literally 100% incapable of doing anything remotely close to that. I also have gone on record to with how character and weapon scalings are often to nonlinear and inconsistent to be taken seriously.
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Heroes takes place before Battle though, but Advance 1 and 2 do take place before Battle.
The emeralds power increases exponentialy and one emerald did do a planet feat in Unleashed though, and the Eclipse Cannon wasn't built by Eggman, he built the FEB before It.
Also Eggman's always says when using one If his inventions that it's his greatest one, só it doesn't mean much.
Most of the final bosses are planet level via scaling to Super Sonic, not because of their own feats, the only planetary feats are Dark Gaia waking up and Shadow's statment about the Eclipse Cannon which was made to destroy the Black Comer so it's not built tô destroy as much possible.
Assuming that Eggman's top machines that he took entire games to built are just as strong as FEB isn't a far of comparassion, especialy since Eggman would use the full power that he can to fight Super Sonic, we also don't know how long the Advance games took as well, Battle was never stated to take longer than other games
The emeralds power increases exponentialy and one emerald did do a planet feat in Unleashed though, and the Eclipse Cannon wasn't built by Eggman, he built the FEB before It.
Also Eggman's always says when using one If his inventions that it's his greatest one, só it doesn't mean much.
Most of the final bosses are planet level via scaling to Super Sonic, not because of their own feats, the only planetary feats are Dark Gaia waking up and Shadow's statment about the Eclipse Cannon which was made to destroy the Black Comer so it's not built tô destroy as much possible.
Assuming that Eggman's top machines that he took entire games to built are just as strong as FEB isn't a far of comparassion, especialy since Eggman would use the full power that he can to fight Super Sonic, we also don't know how long the Advance games took as well, Battle was never stated to take longer than other games
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Eclipse Cannon was built by Gerald I know, but still. FEB is still much stronger than Eclipse Cannon; which even with 7 Chaos Emeralds, the best feat done by Eclipse Cannon isn't any higher than Tier 5. It was going to destroy the Earth for sure, and it was used to destroy Devil Doom's comment, but those are both Tier 5 statements. Dark Gaia is the one with a 5-A feat, and the Sonic Advance 3 Feat was done with all 7 Chaos Emeralds as stated in the instruction Manual. Also, the 5-B calc was actually hindering some details; that was a feat done by all 7 Chaos Emeralds being united, but simply being undone as each one gets removed. But it's the power of all 7 working together that still did the feat. Individual Chaos Emeralds are too inconsistent. There are times where a fodder Wall level character had a Chaos Emerald and was still defeated by another fodder Wall level character.
FEB is still his more dangerous one yet and greatly dwarfs every feat prior to it be a massive margin. It's still an outlier for Eggman to even produce one in the first place. And actually, Black Doom said Eclipse Cannon was built to "pierce the planets" in the correct translation. But the end game Bosses of Sonic Advance still lack any showings of being higher than Tier 5.
Perfect Chaos' best feat was actually High 6-A,but he's 5-A scaling from Dark Gaia which is fine; even though he's shown to be weaker than him. Still, I don't think it should be assumed that multi purposed vehicles are on par with a Cosmic Satellite weapon. That's like comparing the Millenium Falcon to the Death Star.
FEB is still his more dangerous one yet and greatly dwarfs every feat prior to it be a massive margin. It's still an outlier for Eggman to even produce one in the first place. And actually, Black Doom said Eclipse Cannon was built to "pierce the planets" in the correct translation. But the end game Bosses of Sonic Advance still lack any showings of being higher than Tier 5.
Perfect Chaos' best feat was actually High 6-A,but he's 5-A scaling from Dark Gaia which is fine; even though he's shown to be weaker than him. Still, I don't think it should be assumed that multi purposed vehicles are on par with a Cosmic Satellite weapon. That's like comparing the Millenium Falcon to the Death Star.
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The Eclpse Cannon never fired with all emeralds, though, only statments.
The feat of the 5-B wasn't done with all seven but that's talk of another thread
No final bosses except Dark Gaia awakening up so weak that he couldn't handle his own wheight have feats of their own, it's common logic that Eggman's machines that fought Super Sonic are just as strong as his most powerful machine
I Will look into Wiindi's translation of Shadow the Hedgehog to see what he says about the Eclipse Cannon.
When did a fodder character even used the power of the emeralds?
The feat of the 5-B wasn't done with all seven but that's talk of another thread
No final bosses except Dark Gaia awakening up so weak that he couldn't handle his own wheight have feats of their own, it's common logic that Eggman's machines that fought Super Sonic are just as strong as his most powerful machine
I Will look into Wiindi's translation of Shadow the Hedgehog to see what he says about the Eclipse Cannon.
When did a fodder character even used the power of the emeralds?
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Wiindii's translation still says that the Eclipse Cannon can pierce stars and they are very realible into the fanbase in terms of translating games and have done several translations:https://youtu.be/dEwBHc9jb9Y ( 3:37 turn YouTube subtiles on)
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Mecha Sonic definaly isn't fodder and he was beaten by Sonic, not another fodder characterUltimateFlare said:
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Shadow used Chaos Control and used up all of his Chaos Power; aka all 7 Chaos Emeralds to power the Eclipse Cannon. That calc was based on a practice of "hiding an outlier." The 7 Chaos emeralds where in their place and Dark Gaia was the one lifting the Continental crusts. And each Chaos Emerald being removed slowly by surely restored the planets. But all 7 Emeralds were still linked during that period.
Some of the weaker bosses were actually stomped by Super Sonic and were portrayed as being way weaker than Metal Overlord or Dark Gaia. But Super Sonic never scales from FEB to begin with; he never tanked it, and Eggman never made a weapon equal to it in power be combat applicable.
The translation, "Piercing the Stars" was actually in the English dub and the Japanese dub said planets. Piercing planets or stars is also only a Tier 6 feat iirc unless there's a detail more elaborate.
In Shadow the Hedgehog, the first Chaos Emerald was held by a fodder Black Alien, who's no different than the others and can be killed by a Gun Soldier.
Some of the weaker bosses were actually stomped by Super Sonic and were portrayed as being way weaker than Metal Overlord or Dark Gaia. But Super Sonic never scales from FEB to begin with; he never tanked it, and Eggman never made a weapon equal to it in power be combat applicable.
The translation, "Piercing the Stars" was actually in the English dub and the Japanese dub said planets. Piercing planets or stars is also only a Tier 6 feat iirc unless there's a detail more elaborate.
In Shadow the Hedgehog, the first Chaos Emerald was held by a fodder Black Alien, who's no different than the others and can be killed by a Gun Soldier.
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Well, about the single emerald stuff.
It was each emerald being inserted into a Gaia Temple that restored a fragment of the planet.
The planet split in Advance 3 was done by one Emerald. The manual just says to find the 7 Chaos Emeralds in order to undo it. The cutscene explicitly showed one emerald and then Eggman presses the button in order to split the planet.
Although the Ark with 5 emeralds performing a 6-B feat, yeah that doesn't make much sense in terms of consistency.
It was each emerald being inserted into a Gaia Temple that restored a fragment of the planet.
The planet split in Advance 3 was done by one Emerald. The manual just says to find the 7 Chaos Emeralds in order to undo it. The cutscene explicitly showed one emerald and then Eggman presses the button in order to split the planet.
Although the Ark with 5 emeralds performing a 6-B feat, yeah that doesn't make much sense in terms of consistency.
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The Millenium Falcon wasn't built by the Empire, and It wasn't made to fight the it's mortal enemy powered by the most powerful energy source in the universe
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A full-on space fortress that took a whole game to build will be above the other things Robotnik built. Only thing that could be comparable is the Eclipse Cannon which has tier 5 feats.
I don't care about the base Sonic stuff.
I don't care about the base Sonic stuff.
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