Super Smash Bros. Massive Upgrades

[Muhammedmco]

Now, as you guys might know, The Super Smash Bros. characters are Low 2-C. Time to correct this little mistake.

As we all know, Master Hand is the embodiment of all creation in the Super Smash Bros. universe. Right?

Well, guess what? Infinite dimensions are constantly being created in the Super Smash verse. Not to mention that the fighters in the Super Smash Bros. are actually toys in the real world.

So...what does that mean?

1 - Master Hand created the Super Smash Bros. universe, which contains infinite dimensions, which is 2-A.

2 - The fighters in the Super Smash Bros. infinite multiverse are "actively trying to be real", and are viewed as toys in the real world, which in turn would conclude that Master Hand views his own creation as fiction, which in turn would make him High 2-A.

This would scale to Crazy Hand, Tabuu, Giga Bowser, Galeem and Dharko as well since Crazy Hand is comparable to Master Hand, with Tabuu, Giga Bowser, Galeem and Dharkon being superior to both Master Hand and Crazy Hand.

I need your opinions, guys. What do you think? Seems legit, right?

 

[Assaltwaffle]

We are already questioning the validity of Low 2-C period. 2-A seems pretty crazy and the High 2-A is just a flat-out no.

"Being viewed as toys" doesn't matter especially when you get your face punted by those toys in every franchise consistently.

 

[Muhammedmco]

I still think it's legit.

They are treated as toys in the world of Super Smash Bros., which Master Hand created.

Btw. You haven't even seen the links to just judge. Read them, then say your word.

 

[Eficiente]

That statement was removed of the reasons he's Low 2-C as it is meaningless, it doesn't affirm he made the universe (much less the multiverse), just that he creates stuff in the universe.

Low 2-C is legit as long as he scales to the "toys", which is already iffy.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I can't look at them right now since I'm on mobile and they are YouTube videos.

Also this whole thing relies on the crux of "MH is all of creation", which we are significantly questioning in the other Smash thread.

 

[Eficiente]

Master Hand is the embodiment of all creation in the Super Smash Bros. universe. Right?

...That's not even what it says there.

 

[Muhammedmco]

Master Hand is the embodiment of all creation in the Super Smash Bros. universe. Right?

...That's not even what it says there.

It says that Master Hand personifies creation in the Super Smash Bros. Universe, which is the same as the embodiment of the verse as a whole.

 

[Muhammedmco]

Also, Master Hand and Crazy Hand both respectively represents creation and destruction in the Super Smash Bros. Universe.

So al of this is legit.

 

[Eficiente]

We don't give tiers via headcanons.

 

[Muhammedmco]

This isn't headcanon. It says that Master Hand represents creation in the Super Smash Bros. Universe, with said universe containing infinite dimensions as i have mentioned, where characters are treated as toys in it, which in turn means that Master Hand is 5D.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

"Personifies creation" is too vague to tier, especially since we don't actively see him create much of anything.

I haven't read the "infinite universes" statement yet so I can comment on that.

They aren't 5-D for viewing them as toys, period. That isn't a justification for dimensional superiority. You need to focus on your other points because this one isn't going to happen.

 

[Muhammedmco]

Okay. 2-A it is. Let's focus on this one first.

 

[Eficiente]

Even if he created the universe (which he didn't), he didn't made other timelines. They made themselves. I can get why some think he made the universe via not knowing what the words "personifies" and "in" mean, but 2-A literally comes out of nowhere.

 

[Genericstickman]

It does say that Palkia lives between Dimensions in his Brawl trophy description but that's less of a feat and more of a life choice, who knows it might be comparable between those universes

 

[Eficiente]

Well, it doesn't say anything about those dimensions, nothing indicates it is a 4-dimensional space, and has anti-feats of speed, such as dying due to Galeem's rays of light.

 

[Bobsican]

Didn´t I already did this before and the idea was extremely denied?

 

[Eficiente]

Affirmative.

 

[The_Smashor]

Master Hand sees the infinite universes as fiction.

@Eficiente

Any doubts about the validity of Low 2-C Master Hand are, at this point, unfounded (Master Hand is at least compareable to Smash!Dialga, sees the smash fighters and probably the assist trophies like Smash!Arceus as toys as shown in the Smash 64 intro, is possibly 4D but I'll get to that later).

As for Anti-Feats, the entire concept of Anti-Feats are the stupidest thing to ever exist. And I'm including every conflict to ever exist in that statement. That time you decked your friend in the face because they used one too many pieces of toilet paper? That is less stupid then Anti-Feats. If a consistently High 6-A character is killed by a nuke, then it's a High 6-A nuke or PIS. If a consistently 5-A character is killed by a star smaller then the moon, it's a 5-A star smaller then the moon or PIS. If a Massively FTL+ character is hit by a bullet, it's a Massively FTL+ bullet or PIS. Hell, we have several characters with 8-C durability that are constantly threatened by bullets

As for this, Master Hand has several potentially 4D statements and feats (Constatly stated to be the link between the real world and world of Smash Bros, seeing the smash fighters as toys.)

If you saw things as toys and had your hands "play" with them, then you'd let yourself lose, too, unless you were some sort of narcissist. It's entirely possible the reason PIS exists in Smash is because Master Hand creates the PIS. It's even outright stated Master Hand enjoys fighting. Of couse, that's all partialy theorizing, but still. It's worthy of note.

 

[Eficiente]

As usual, you couldn't be more wrong. Master Hand does not see infinite universes as fiction, that's your headcanon, nothing proves or even suggests that he is even aware of those infinite universes. You just want to get him a high tier without caring about evidence or logic.

>"sees the smash fighters and probably the assist trophies like Smash!Arceus as toys"

He saw beings below him as toys, not those with tier 2 feats, and those toys can even beat him.

This is not feats vs anti-feats, it is assumptions vs facts, making the assumptions turn off a little on how much powerful we say these characters are.

The 4-D stuff was already rejected, did you want me to ask for a rule against that later? It's not suddenly more legit now.

 

[Warren_Valion]

*Snip*

No, disbelieving Low 2-C Master Hand is not "unfounded" whatsoever.

I will explain why that is so.

Dialga Feat
The only Low 2-C feat in the series, is a statement made about Dialga which is remarkably similar to a statement made in the Pokemon series about Dialga's origins. That "Dialga's birth caused time to flow" or something like that.

Here is the Smash Trophies:

Brawl

• Dialga: A Temporal Pokémon. This Legendary Pokémon is talked about as a deity in fables passed down through generations in the Sinnoh region. Identifiable by the diamondlike crystal in the center of its chest, Dialga is said to have set time in motion at the moment of its birth. Its fearsome Roar of Time attack is so powerful that it must refrain from attacking on its next turn.

Smash 4

• Dialga: The concept of time has always been one of the world's great mysteries, but Dialga might hold the answer. Legend has it that Dialga's birth caused time to begin moving! It's no surprise that the people of Sinnoh see this Pokémon as a deity. If you're ever running late, maybe you could ask Dialga to do you a favour and turn back the clock.

And here is Dialga's AP description on the wiki:

• Multiverse level (Its birth made time begin to flow. Is a good amount stronger than Darkrai, even with Palkia fighting it and drawing its attention. Aided in the creation of the multiverse, which contains an untold number of universes. For instance, certain universe's versions of the Kalos region contain a Reflection Cave. The mirrors in this cave each lead to other universes, each with their own versions of Reflection Cave with more mirrors leading to more universes, and so on. Equal to Palkia.)

As you can plainly see, the description is relatively the same in every Smash game, and in the AP description that hails from the Pokemon series.

Following Occam's Razor, it would be a far more logical conclusion to assume that the trophy is just describing the origin of the character from their franchise, then describing a feat by the Smash version without any proof of such a feat happening - at all.

Anti-Feat Rant
The basis of your argument is that if a consistently ranked character has feats that are below their tier, then it qualifies for a low-level outlier, and thus, should be ignored.


This is correct, not every outlier has to be ridiculously higher than the character's tier, it can be the opposite as well - Goku getting damaged by bullets being an example I can think of off the top of my head.


I have no problem with this statement, but I do have a problem with your implication. Master Hand is not consistently a Low 2-C character - in any metric known to man whatsoever.


The problem with Master Hand isn't Anti-Feats, which are just outliers btw, it's the fact that you are incorrectly interpreting what is happening in the series.

Consistent 4-D Feats/Statements
Simply put, where are these "consistent statements"?

Are you talking about statements like "Master Hand being the link to the Real World and the Toy World" and "Master Hand embodies Creation"? If so, those aren't feats, they are hyperbolic gibberish that doesn't mean anything without proof as such.

And I need to ask, if Master Hand is the embodiment of creation in the Smash verse, then why do we consider that Smash Dialga and the rest of the Creation Trio are the ones who created the Smash verse?

Isn't that a contradiction? How can they both be the creators of the verse?


Anyway, if you have proof that Master Hand is a 4-D being that doesn't rely on vague "creator" arguments that don't have any merit, then I'd love to hear them.

Master Hand Viewing the Roster as Toys
Master Hand "seeing the roster as toys" is because the roster are toys that come to life - it doesn't equate to any difference in power, nor does it equate a dimensional difference as I have seen some argue.

In this picture.

Link and Yoshi are standing over a trophy version of Mario. Does that mean both Link and Yoshi are ridiculously stronger than Mario? No, it doesn't. It means that Mario was damaged enough to revert to his inert trophy state - like all other trophies as shown in Brawl's story mode Sub-Space Emissary.

Power is not a measure in this scenario whatsoever.

Especially considering that the roster that Master Hand supposedly views as "toys", keep kicking his ass in every game, and those who are stronger than him as well.

Not to mention, that characters like Master Hand and Crazy Hand, who according to you, are "the sole creators of the franchise that looks down at the cast like they are toys", are in fact, trophies themselves in the trophy gallery.

Conclusion/TL;DR
Dialga's Low 2-C feat is just a reference to Dialga's legendary feat in Pokemon, not an actual feat that Dialga did in the Smashverse.

Vague statements on how Master Hand "embodies creation" or has "power that borders on the absolute" are meaningless without actual proof of what "embodying creation" means or what "absolute power" entails.

And that using said tidbit of lore completely contradicts the notion that Dialga was the one to set time in motion in the Smashverse entirely - furthering the debunk of that argument.

Master Hand "viewing the characters as toys" means absolutely nothing in terms of power since the characters - including Master Hand are, in fact, toys or trophies.


Finally, we should actually use feats from the series - like Galeem's Light ability being 3-A and MFTL+ for instance, instead of relying on misinterpreted references and random vague lore.


So in conclusion, Master Hand not being 4-D isn't "completely unfounded".

 

[Eficiente]

Why don't you just make your own thread? Your beliefs barely have anything to do with this thread, it will be a mess to deal with everything.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Why don't you just make your own thread? Your beliefs barely have anything to do with this thread, it will be a mess to deal with everything.

Are you talking to me?

 

[Eficiente]

Yes.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Yes.

Can you specify what you mean when saying "my beliefs"?

I just tried explaining to The Smashor that his arguments that there is consistent proof of Master Hand being 4-D was debunked.

That's what you are doing as well - my explanation is just larger with sub-sections.


If my beliefs have almost nothing to do with this thread, then so do yours.

 

[Eficiente]

Did you purposely miss the part in which you were saying that Dialga's feat isn't "an actual feat"? And how this thread has nothing to do with that? In a thread where "we" need to debate with users who want an upgrade, it is messy to handle something that can very well be its own thread. It had already nothing to do with my downgrade thread when it was broght there.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Did you purposely miss the part in which you were saying that Dialga's feat isn't "an actual feat"? And how this thread has nothing to do with that? In a thread where "we" need to debate with users who want an upgrade, it is messy to handle something that can very well be its own thread. It had already nothing to do with my downgrade thread when it was broght there.

Did you purposely miss the part where the Dialga feat is a single section out of four in my long comment where I go through the process that debunks the statements made by The Smashor?

The context of my reference to Dialga's feat was that I was using my debunk of the feat to enhance the point I was trying to make, said point being that The Smashor is inaccurate in his evaluation of Smash Bros and that his arguments have been debunked.

Dialga's feat and downgrading Low 2-C was not the point I was making for the thread in total - it was a supporting argument.


And I don't see your logic.

Threads can grow and evolve to include other topics as the discussion grows

On your thread, a downgrade thread that Low 2-C Smash utilized faulty reasoning, evolving into a downgrade thread for Low 2-C Smash in general, is a logical progression that stemmed from the discussion.

 

[The_Smashor]

"why do we consider that Smash Dialga and the rest of the Creation Trio are the ones who created the Smash verse?"

We don't know what universe it is, we just know Dialga created A timeline and MH is equal or stronger then them.

I never said MH not being 4D is completely unfounded. I said MH not being Low 2-C is unfounded.

Trophy statements are used for smash scaling as they generally have contradictions with canon (Like Super Sonic being "Almost" the speed of light).

Master Hand embodying creation is shown in Smash 64's intro when he basically brings the toys and a stage to life. Several characters are at a higher tier for statements alone.

MH being a toy is probably a game mechanic since we clearly see Master Hand causing the toys to begin moving in Smash 64's intro.

 

[Bobsican]

There´s also the possibility abotu Smash being canon, but I´m not even going to bother with it as it has been extremely denied in lack of enought proof.

 

[Hunterzillas]

Umm....bump?

 

[Antvasima]

Assaltwaffle seems to have rejected these upgrades.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The argument that Master Hand gets beat by the fighters is bs. He's always stated to be testing you and the one time he's playable and serious, he stomps 50 bloodlusted fighters at once.

And personally, I'm perfectly fine with 2-A. The Hand did create the universe (arguments against it are clearly semantics that beings with much less information gets away with) which is stated to have infinite timelines. Nobody will agree with me on that, but Low 2-C is perfectly fine.

 

[Eficiente]

You can make a thread about who he created the universe any day. That much is wrong but nothing beyond that, however 2-A is absolute nonsense.

Seriously even if he did created the universe why would he be 2-A just because there exist infinite timelines? Nothing says he made them too and there are Master Hands there as well. And this is all ignoring how Crazy Hand is his opposite and has his opposite job yet he never destroyed even a planet let alone a universe or an infinite multiverse.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Except it's not wrong. It completely is bound on outright interpreting things your own way when every piece of the little information about Master Hand implies he created the Smash Bros universe.

Because that's how Occam's Razor works. Note how Zeno has a "possibly higher" rating due to the potentiality of him destroying all of time. We don't see multiple Master Hands (the MHs of Galeem are cloned like the rest of the fighters), so we don't assume there's multiple Master Hands.

Gee. You have to destroy something in order to get a tier instead of scaling? Damn. Guess I better downgrade Dragon Ball and 90% of SMT and Digimon. Because I have yet to see Goku (pre Super) destroy a planet, any of the SMT protagonists destroy anything more than a building, and most Digimon destroy any more than a planet.

 

[Eficiente]

Hey, even I was ok on him having 3-C/3-B feats via the stuff we see of him create and scale that to Final Destination, but that was both rejected and less than what his supposed universal statement wa aiming to mean. Which just means that he creates things, and he does so within the universe, nothing more.

..I wouldn't even have done the thread if the profile had the evidence and elaboration that it needed to have. "[ Statement], [ he's shown] [ doing stuff], thus he likely created the universe", something like that. His current justification at least is no longer insulting.

I don't think they get their tiers via vague statements that could mean much simpler things.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Which again, it's false. Apparently for Mh, things need to be spoonfed to people rather than heavily implied. Master Hand is shown being a god figure to the Smash universe, and a majority of things point to that. Because none of them outright word for word say "here durr he created the universe" and instead is more flowery about it, doesn't work. This isn't even just to you. This is just for the entire opposition. Please tell me how "Source of creation in the universe" is vague, especially coupled with his 64 Opening feat and stated to be the master of the world.

 

[SuperBearNeo_X]

At this point I feel this site uses "this term is vague" when it only is convient. Nothing about "Source or creation in the universe" is vague and is pretty cut-dry as it directly states that all source of creation derives from Master Hand. The notion that he simply creates things in the universe is less resonable and logical by Occam Razor (as Cal also points out, the intro to SSB 64 also adds credit to this claim as he literally creates the entire setting)

Now addressing the Dialga feat situation. Why ignore the statement itself and assume it didn't happen. Nothing about them have ever been contradicted and in addition to this, the trophies don't always describe the character from their respective series but gives information about the verse. Also the statement itself is once more, cut-dry as it directly states that Dialga started all of Time upon birth

 

[Eficiente]

@Cal What we know of him is that he's "a mysterious figure with unknown motives and origins", he's less of "God who made the universe" and more of a "some god", or just some powerful villain.

• "Source of creation": He creates stuff, like we saw in the 64 opening.
• "in the universe": That's where he does stuff like everyone else, makes sense to say this giving that he's "the link from the real world and the world of trophies" or something like that.
• "master of the world": He strong.

There. Nothing says the made the universe.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Once again, you play semantics to make things go to your interpretation. Master Hand's not even a villain. I find it funny how we're the only site that's arguing this obvious fact when everywhere else from the Smash wiki to OBD know that the Hand created the Smash Bros universe. You're literally breaking down the sentence instead of taking it as a whole for crying out loud. I can promise you I've seen shit like "source of creation in the universe" as justification for tier 2 profiles. Master of the world, while means absolutely nothing by itself, certainly doesn't just imply "he's strong". Master Hand is certainly treated as God with a capital G, and there being equals or superiors doesn't nullify that either.

 

[Eficiente]

Well then, I have nothing new to say. Please make a thread if necessary.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Despite my tone, nothing personal. We're still cool and all and I don't hold anything against you.