Super Smash Bros. Massive Upgrades

[Eficiente]

I know, no need to clarify that. Everyone has their opinions and that's fine.

 

[Skalt711]

I'll go neutral on this upgrade. It's hard to interpret the statements properly. But they smell with metaphor.

 

[SuperBearNeo_X]

Oh and regarding 2-A Master Hand, I'm neutral on this as it's unknown whether Master Hans scales to the other universes as opposed to the main one Smash takes in (although you could make argument as Tabuu overtime was effecting other dimensions)

 

[SinsofMan]

I too am neutral, but I am inclined to be skeptical. I want to listen to more arguments before I shift sides considering it is a big upgrade.

 

[The_Smashor]

I suppose I'm neuteral as well, in lack of better evidence. And even if MH does scale to the infinite universes, it might be a Dragon Ball 2-B situation and not 2-A. Although (In terms of the Smash Bros Universe) all of the DLC characters from 4 as well as Joker are considered to be from a different dimension because Sakurai just needs his nap, okay? and Master Hand likely still sees them on the same level as every other fighter, so that might be evidence.

Edit: Yeah the Smash Bros Multiverse is 2-A Viridi specifically says "Infinite". Heck, it's Infinite times Countless, every action or inaction creating infinite parallel worlds, likely making MH the strongest 2-A AP wise if he scales.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

No?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

To give a better answer: No.

Master Hand being the "embodiment of creation" doesn't mean he created the universe, let alone the multiverse. There is a reason why most threads wanting to keep MH at Low 2-C focused on scaling to the CT instead.

Even if Master Hand did create the World of Trophies, there is absolutely no reasons to think that this includes other universes. Heck, even Subspace was outside of MH's scope. No one scales to those timelines.

 

[Eficiente]

I agree with Saikou, we practically said the same.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

"Master Hand being the "embodiment of creation" doesn't mean he created the universe, let alone the multiverse. There is a reason why most threads wanting to keep MH at Low 2-C focused on scaling to the CT instead."

Again, how the hell is "source of creation in the universe" vague. Embodiment of creation isn't the only thing said about the Hand. I get "Embodiment of creation of the universe" and "Master of our world" can be vague in a vacuum. But not only is "Source of creation in the universe" enough that I've probably seen profiles with that justification before, but coupled together with everything else, to put it the nicest way possible, you'd be remiss to say otherwise.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

You can be the source of creation in the universe, but not neccessarily be the source of the creation of the universe. Embodying creation on a lower level can fit that statement just as well.

Bear I mind that I still believe that the Hands are Low 2-C through other means. Just that 2-A is bull.

 

[The_Smashor]

Yeah, "Source of Creation in the universe" is at least Low 2-C. And Master Hand seems to have dominion over other "Dimensions", too, since Mewtwo, Lucus, Roy, Ryu, Cloud, Corrin, Bayonetta and Joker are considered to come from a different Dimension in their Palutena's Guidence conversation. Even if it was Sakurai just wanting to have a nap, it's part of the canon either way. While you can argue it's been retconned for the SSB4 DLC, Joker in SSBU still has this description to him. And just saying, I doubt these characters come from some random dark room (I mean with the Smash Lore they technically could but that's besides the point). It's more than likely an actual separate universe.

Also, each franchise characters originate from is called a "Universe" on the Smash Wiki. Any sources to where the franchises are officially called Universes?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

You can be the source of creation in the universe, but not neccessarily be the source of the creation of the universe.

That's the epitome of nitpicking. A change in preposition apparently debunks every bit of evidence there is. Or should I say change of preposition. I don't want you to misinterpret what I said.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I'm not denying that the characters comes from other universes. That much is pretty self-evident. But Master Had has only ever created the Smash Bros. universe, if it ever did that. At best that's a range feat, not an AP feat.

@Cal A change in wording ca change everything. This just supports its role as a vague embodiment of creation, not as the creator of the universe. In fact, the European version of this title supports my interpretation, not yours:

"Master Hand personifies creation in the Smash Bros. universe."

All other trophy descriptions hammer in that they embody generel creation and destruction. Interpreting that statment as saying that Master Hand created the universe contradicts all of this, at least in the intent of the quote.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

But I'm not using the EU version of the wording, am I. Also lol at anything contradicting. The wording may be vague and meaningless by itself, but it's anything else but contradictory to Low 2-C.

Dialga personifies the concept of time. I guess that means Dialga didn't create time if he personifies it.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Ignoring the other wording (which is equally as valid) just to run off with your own interpretation doesn't work. Also I'm not saying that it contradicts Master Hand being Low 2-C. But it does contradict the idea of the statement meaning that MH created the universe, when most likely than not it just means, again, that it embodies creation.

 

[The_Smashor]

What's the direct translation of the Japanese version? After all, it would be considered above the other ones since that's where the game was primarily made.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Yeah, having the Japanese version would help this matter.

 

[TriforcePower1]

As someone that agrees with Low 2-C Master Hand, I also disagree with 2-A Master Hand At least for now. We also need to take a bit of context of what Viridi's talking about with her infinite statement. She explicitly says that "Every action and inaction creates infinite parallel worlds", which is basically Viridi referencing the theory of multiple timelines, which has nothing to do with Master Hand. The only way it could potentially scale to Master Hand would be that those timelines are still created by Master Hand "because he's the source of creation", but that's a quite big leap in logic as well as being not supported by anything.

@Saikou and Cal

You guys know that Japanese doesn't really have plurals so the whole statement could very well mean both "in the Smash Universes" and "in the Smash Universe", right? OvO

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Honestly I could argue for 2-C Dharkon & Galeem, as Dharkon overtook the Dark Realm, which contains two dimensions at least.

 

[The_Smashor]

OvO

 

[TriforcePower1]

Oh yeah, 2-C Galeem/Dharkon is probably legit due to Galeem destroying with his rays Bayo's Purgatory and probably Subspace as well. Though that's derailing right here.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Last derailing from me, but the bosses might have a 4-A feat as well. Not MH & CH mind you, but Giga Bowser & Co. Their defeat can several affect the balance of light and dark in the final battle's world, which includes stars and shit.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I agree with Saikou and Triforce with idea that infinite timelines don't scale to Master Hand.

It's just how time and possibilites work that create those infinite timelines, not that Master Hand is creating them.

 

[The_Smashor]

Master Hand is > Dialga, who created time itself upon birth. Not a timeline, time.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Nevermind the fact that our revisions for Low 2-C might mean that it won't matter anymore, you cannot in good faith automatically assume that Dialga embodies time in every timeline of every universe in the Smash Bros. Smashverse or something.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Master Hand is > Dialga, who created time itself upon birth. Not a timeline, time.

"Every action and inaction creates infinite parallel worlds. You are only in one of them."

Meaning that originally, there was a single universe, the root from where all these parallel worlds branched out from - and that from every action and inaction, infinite parallel worlds were created from it.

Not that all infinite parallel worlds were created simultaneously.


No one scales to that.

 

[The_Smashor]

Nevermind the fact that our revisions for Low 2-C might mean that it won't matter anymore

Those revisions are never going to go anywhere. There's no reason not to think that Master Hand isn't > or at least equal to Dialga since Master Hand sees the fighters as toys and, as by extension, Dialga. And if you say that the trophy description isn't referring to an in-universe feat, but Dialga's actual feat in Pokemon, then congratulations! You just made it so our wiki considers Smash Bros as Canon! We now have Arceus level Master Hand! That's what you wanted, right?

Sai, just stop with the Master Hand downplay. It's never going to go anywhere. Stop saying Master Hand "might not even be Low 2-C" because Master Hand is always going to be Low 2-C or higher because he's superior to a Low 2-C. Saying Master Hand is lower then Low 2-C is like saying Grass isn't green or 1 + 1 isn't equal to 2.

Edit: WELL I'M AN EFFING IDIOT! I THOUGHT YOU MEANT A SMASH CRT NOT A CHANGE TO THE WIKI FUNDAMENTALLY! Sorry about that.

Still, Master Hand's tier might change, but his level of power will stay the same so I fail to see how this is remotely relevant.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Because you guys try to push for 2-A Master Hand.

 

[Eficiente]

So, about using the European versions of statements. They are far more reliable in this verse, I made some comparisons before.

Did anybody knew that Knuckle Joe is an expert in all martial arts?

 

[The_Smashor]

@Eficiente You need more proof then a small change in Knuckle Joe's trophy description to say that the EU versions are more reliable.

@Saikou

...?

 

[Eficiente]

That was an example for something I don't have easy-to-find evidence for.

 

[The_Smashor]

Well we all have some time. Show us your evidence.

If it's hard to find and you haven't found it, have you considered that it might not exist?

 

[Eficiente]

I don't like your attitude, but

"The incarnation of creation that exists in the world of "Smash", an existence in which everything is shrouded in mystery" (『Òé╣Òâ×ÒâûÒâ®』Òü«õ©ûþòîÒü½Õ¡ÿÕ£¿ÒüÖÒéïÕëÁÚÇáÒü«ÕîûÞ║½ÒüºÒÇüõ¢òÒééÒüïÒééÒüîÞ¼ÄÒü½ÕîàÒü¥ÒéîÒüªÒüäÒéïÕ¡ÿÕ£¿ÒÇé)

GG MH creating the universe.

 

[TriforcePower1]

http://smashwiki.info/Òâ×Òé╣Òé┐Òâ╝ÒâÅÒâ│Òâë

The Japanese statement of Master Hand embodying creation should be somewhere here, though I have no idea on how to actually find it.

Edit: I got Ninja'd hard. The full sentence for curious guys is:

『Òé╣Òâ×ÒâûÒâ®』Òü«õ©ûþòîÒü½Õ¡ÿÕ£¿ÒüÖÒéïÕëÁÚÇáÒü«ÕîûÞ║½ÒüºÒÇüõ¢òÒééÒüïÒééÒüîÞ¼ÄÒü½ÕîàÒü¥ÒéîÒüªÒüäÒéïÕ¡ÿÕ£¿ÒÇéõ©ªÒü┐Õ▒àÒéïÒâ®ÒéñÒâÉÒâ½ÚüöÒéÆÕÇÆÒüùÒÇüÒéêÒüåÒéäÒüÅÒüƒÒü®ÒéèþØÇÒüäÒüƒþÁéþé╣ÒüºÕ¥àÒüíÕÅùÒüæÒüªÒüäÒéïÒÇéÞíîÕïòÒÇüµö╗µÆâÒâæÒé┐Òâ╝Òâ│Òü»µò░ÕñÜÒüÅÒÇüÞç¬ÒéëÒü«Õ¢óÒéÆÕñëÕîûÒüòÒüøÒüªµö╗µÆâÒüùÒüªÒüÅÒéïÒÇéÒâøÒâ│Òé¡Õ║ªÒéÆõ©èÒüÆÒéïÒü¿µö╗µÆâÕèøÒÇüÒüÁÒüúÒü¿Òü░ÒüùÕèøÒÇüÚǃÒüòÒüîõ©èÒüîÒéïÒÇéÒé╣Òé¡ÒéÆÒü┐ÒüñÒüæÒüªõ©ÇµÆâÚøóÞä▒ÒéÆÕ┐âÒüîÒüæÒÇüµîæÒü┐ÒüƒÒüäÒÇé

 

[DMB_1]

I disagree with 2-A for pretty much all the reasons posted above.

 

[Eficiente]

『Òé╣Òâ×ÒâûÒâ®』Òü«õ©ûþòîÒü½Õ¡ÿÕ£¿ÒüÖÒéïÕëÁÚÇáÒü«ÕîûÞ║½ÒüºÒÇüõ¢òÒééÒüïÒééÒüîÞ¼ÄÒü½ÕîàÒü¥ÒéîÒüªÒüäÒéïÕ¡ÿÕ£¿ÒÇéõ©ªÒü┐Õ▒àÒéïÒâ®ÒéñÒâÉÒâ½ÚüöÒéÆÕÇÆÒüùÒÇüÒéêÒüåÒéäÒüÅÒüƒÒü®ÒéèþØÇÒüäÒüƒþÁéþé╣ÒüºÕ¥àÒüíÕÅùÒüæÒüªÒüäÒéïÒÇéÞíîÕïòÒÇüµö╗µÆâÒâæÒé┐Òâ╝Òâ│Òü»µò░ÕñÜÒüÅÒÇüÞç¬ÒéëÒü«Õ¢óÒéÆÕñëÕîûÒüòÒüøÒüªµö╗µÆâÒüùÒüªÒüÅÒéïÒÇéÒâøÒâ│Òé¡Õ║ªÒéÆõ©èÒüÆÒéïÒü¿µö╗µÆâÕèøÒÇüÒüÁÒüúÒü¿Òü░ÒüùÕèøÒÇüÚǃÒüòÒüîõ©èÒüîÒéïÒÇéÒé╣Òé¡ÒéÆÒü┐ÒüñÒüæÒüªõ©ÇµÆâÚøóÞä▒ÒéÆÕ┐âÒüîÒüæÒÇüµîæÒü┐ÒüƒÒüäÒÇé

 

[TriforcePower1]

I don't like your attitude, but

"The incarnation of creation that exists in the world of "Smash", an existence in which everything is shrouded in mystery" (『Òé╣Òâ×ÒâûÒâ®』Òü«õ©ûþòîÒü½Õ¡ÿÕ£¿ÒüÖÒéïÕëÁÚÇáÒü«ÕîûÞ║½ÒüºÒÇüõ¢òÒééÒüïÒééÒüîÞ¼ÄÒü½ÕîàÒü¥ÒéîÒüªÒüäÒéïÕ¡ÿÕ£¿ÒÇé)

GG MH creating the universe.

Is that Google Translate or did you find someone that translated it offsite?

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Because that's how Occam's Razor works. Note how Zeno has a "possibly higher" rating due to the potentiality of him destroying all of time. We don't see multiple Master Hands (the MHs of Galeem are cloned like the rest of the fighters), so we don't assume there's multiple Master Hands.

Huh, no he doesn't have a possibly higher, Zeno is just 2-C and the context of him destroying everything is just one timeline, especially since each timeline has their own Zeno.

 

[Eficiente]

Google translated, it says the same in Spanish and English. Well, we should now outright clarify in MH's profile that he didn't made the universe.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

"Huh, no he doesn't have a possibly higher, Zeno is just 2-C and the context of him destroying everything is just one timeline, especially since each timeline has their own Zeno."

Typo. Meant to say had, not has.

"Google translated, it says the same in Spanish and English. Well, we should now outright clarify in MH's profile that he didn't made the universe."

Still saying no because we're not going contrarian to the popular belief of like, everyone. Go to any other site, vs battle related or otherwise, that talks about Smash and you'll hear the same song and dance that I'm saying. Also google translate sucks.