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Strength A+ servant
- Thread starter John985
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- fate/grand order
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I can kinda agree with this but rather than saying A+ scale to the 1.8 gigatons, it would make more sense to scale them to 1.2 gigatons since A+ = x2 A rank, A rank being 600 megatons. x1.5 AP difference isn't much and Lu Bu is better than Gawain at pretty much everything so them being called comparable makes sense even if he can't match up in AP fully.
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What did they scale to previously? Meaning, how did we multiply them differently?
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I had this talk with Everlasting cuz I had the same question on "What makes A+ 2x A rank here?".
Assuming we actually start to scale anyone A+ and up on this, that would again require to make a gap of the chars like before from City to Mountain, only this time it's now Mountain to Large Mountain seeing as Hercs is the source of anyone A and up to be Mountain+.
If this is to pass, I get the feeling it'll be like that. Not to mention rescaling any NP's of this level like Durindana or Servants with A rank STR like Salter who managed to harm Hercs with even her normal blows in Heaven's Feel.
Assuming we actually start to scale anyone A+ and up on this, that would again require to make a gap of the chars like before from City to Mountain, only this time it's now Mountain to Large Mountain seeing as Hercs is the source of anyone A and up to be Mountain+.
If this is to pass, I get the feeling it'll be like that. Not to mention rescaling any NP's of this level like Durindana or Servants with A rank STR like Salter who managed to harm Hercs with even her normal blows in Heaven's Feel.
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I would assume so, yes. Though I heard about something of Iap and Ever talking with one another about this scaling so I'll hear what Iap has to say.
To me, putting any A's if not A+'s up like this would just create another gap like before. RN as is it's "closer" than previously so....yeah.
But again I want to hear what Iap has to say at least.
To me, putting any A's if not A+'s up like this would just create another gap like before. RN as is it's "closer" than previously so....yeah.
But again I want to hear what Iap has to say at least.
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I'll just put what Everlasting said in regards to this:
"The core problem is that Sun Gawain is High 7-A by being 3x stronger than his base form, which scales to Herc who is the source of the 7-A feat.
If A+ is High 7-A then Herc would scale too, which means High 7-A comes from Gawain being 3x stronger than himself."
"The core problem is that Sun Gawain is High 7-A by being 3x stronger than his base form, which scales to Herc who is the source of the 7-A feat.
If A+ is High 7-A then Herc would scale too, which means High 7-A comes from Gawain being 3x stronger than himself."
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"I mean yeah but Herc is the reason it scales to Servants with his whole deflecting Excalibur thing
So it's just semantics honestly"
Ever again. I have the same thought of this as well with this.
So it's just semantics honestly"
Ever again. I have the same thought of this as well with this.
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Didn't Herc have a downgraded strength stat in Stay Night??? I thought it was only A rank??? i could be wrong though
I plan on going through extella againTotally not looking for things that scale to BB
But extella link has a wonky scaling by itself.
I plan on going through extella again
But extella link has a wonky scaling by itself.
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- "For no particular reason, all the Servants had their abilities translated into specific parameters.
It's pretty obvious just from looking at them that A is the strongest, but you might be thinking to yourself, "What on earth is all this B+ and A+ nonsense!?" Well, don't worry, because I'm going to take a moment to explain the rules behind it here.
For sake of argument, let's assume that a normal value is 1. In that case, E would be 10. And, every rank after that adds another 10, all the way up to A, which is 50.
Now, things like B+ and A+ represent the unique ability to multiply these numerical values for just an instant.
In other words, an ability ranked B+ would normally be weaker than an ability ranked A, but can momentarily exceed it by doubling its own power from 40 to 80.
Heroic Spirits with a + (plus) are rare, those with a ++ (double plus) are extraordinary, and those with a +++ (triple plus) are in a class all their own.
Also, a truly exceptional ability score that falls outside the numerical ranking scale is represented by an EX.
Though Gilgamesh's ability scores generally aren't very impressive, his EX rank Noble Phantasm parameter clearly distinguishes him from the other Heroic Spirits."
This is the source Fate/Side Material https://www.tmdict.com/en/ha.parameter-rules
Each "+" is a x2 Multiplier if i understood it right.
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John985 said:
This is his stat in FSN.
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I'd argue that Herc deflecting Excalibur didn't require all of his strength considering nothing in the text even hints at it. It just says (paraphrasing here), Excalibur gets fired, he smacked it aside. We know he only reacts to and blocks attacks that are A rank due to bypassing his GH as seen with Calad 2, GoB etc so Excalipoke would most certainly be A but nothing about the feat scales it to his A+ Str.
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Servants with both strength and constitution at A+ would scale, Ax2 value is around 100. Gawain's Bx3 puts his physical parameters around 120. Then whether or not ME is included in Lu Bu's stats makes it only a difference of one rank between him and Gawain for a short period of time. Though, that is ignoring Gawain's own plus modifiers. Besides Sigurd, the mecha and monsters, not many will actually scale to sunny Gawain.
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Wasn't there a statement of Hakunon saying Nero was = to Gawain??
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Except if it didn't take all his power then he should just one shot Saber who is much weaker then ExcaliburAnonymousBlank said:
Burden of Proof is on the person saying it is because nothing says it is casual.
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The scan is on my computer which I'm currently away from atmJohn985 said:
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- "I'm not trying to flatter her. I'm not trying to be poetic. Depending on the circumstances, Saber (Nero) could match Gawain's Holy Sword, Shine for Shine. Though I've heard her compare herself to muses, I'd actually place her higher than them." [1]
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@Gar
Why would I have to prove he didn't use full power when nothing says he did? A+ is also not a constant level but a temporary number so his stat would vary from A to A+.
Burden of proof would be on whoever is saying the Excalipoke is A+ when all the info we have only places it at A.
Why would I have to prove he didn't use full power when nothing says he did? A+ is also not a constant level but a temporary number so his stat would vary from A to A+.
Burden of proof would be on whoever is saying the Excalipoke is A+ when all the info we have only places it at A.
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Because nothing says that he did
You prove that he was casual, I can just as easily say he wasn't because nothing said it was.
Because if it was casual, Berzerker would have slaughtered Saber
You prove that he was casual, I can just as easily say he wasn't because nothing said it was.
Because if it was casual, Berzerker would have slaughtered Saber
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But if he used his full strength, that would be something relatively important and be mentioned as everything else he did was pretty casual. If he just smacked away the blast like he did Saber, the text doesn't need to say its just a basic swing as the automatic assumption would that it was just a normal swing via Occam's Razor.
Everything we know about how he acts is that he mostly ignores it if it doesn't bypass GH (Archer's arrows, weaker GoB treasures, just grabbing Excalibur to keep Saber still) and will block or deflect it if it will bypass his defense (A rank GoB treasures, Excalipoke). All we know is that the beam was blocked and thus would likely bypass GH. However nothing in the text implies it is equal to his A+ strikes which are not a constant thing. If one wants to say his swing A+, they need to bring evidence to support the notion because, as it stands, nothing does.
Everything we know about how he acts is that he mostly ignores it if it doesn't bypass GH (Archer's arrows, weaker GoB treasures, just grabbing Excalibur to keep Saber still) and will block or deflect it if it will bypass his defense (A rank GoB treasures, Excalipoke). All we know is that the beam was blocked and thus would likely bypass GH. However nothing in the text implies it is equal to his A+ strikes which are not a constant thing. If one wants to say his swing A+, they need to bring evidence to support the notion because, as it stands, nothing does.
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Using your full strength isn't relatively important, the mere idea that most fighters are by default going all out against eachother is basic, especially since the series even states when someone isn't going all out I.E. Lancer vs Archer Round 1.
We're left with two options if we're really leaving it to interpretation
1. Berserker casually swiped away Excaliblast yet doesn't instantly swipe away Saber despite Saber being much weaker then Excaliblast.
2. Excaliblast actually required Berzerker to really try, while swiping Saber wasn't a hard taste because Saber is much weaker then Excaliblast
What you get here is Saber being stronger then her own Noble Phantasm if Berzerker swiped it away but can't swipe Saber away the same way.
The first makes no sense, the second does.
It's not hard to assume in literally every form of fighting media ever that characters that are fighting to the death are going all out unless stated otherwise, as shown by Lancer vs Archer, Fate is not an exception
Prove that Heracles was being casual and say how it makes any sense.
We're left with two options if we're really leaving it to interpretation
1. Berserker casually swiped away Excaliblast yet doesn't instantly swipe away Saber despite Saber being much weaker then Excaliblast.
2. Excaliblast actually required Berzerker to really try, while swiping Saber wasn't a hard taste because Saber is much weaker then Excaliblast
What you get here is Saber being stronger then her own Noble Phantasm if Berzerker swiped it away but can't swipe Saber away the same way.
The first makes no sense, the second does.
It's not hard to assume in literally every form of fighting media ever that characters that are fighting to the death are going all out unless stated otherwise, as shown by Lancer vs Archer, Fate is not an exception
Prove that Heracles was being casual and say how it makes any sense.
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I actually don't approve of this at all, not nearly.
Gawain even without boost is a B+ across all Physical Stats character, while Lu Bu is A+ only in Strength and Endurance. Gawain should by all logical and mathematical common sense be above Lu Bu, and Madness boost or no I see literally no freaking way Lu Bu would tank a hit from the likes of Lion King seriously intending to kill him.
The most telling fact that makes this dubious beyond measure is that Gawain is skilled enough that he would have made short work of Mordred if Mordred hadn't jumped him right after Lancelot pummeled him, and Mordred doesn't even contest this despite being very verbal when she disagrees with something. Someone that by all means should be more skilled than Lu Bu in his mindless state AND outright more powerful, being on par? I don't buy it.
Gawain even without boost is a B+ across all Physical Stats character, while Lu Bu is A+ only in Strength and Endurance. Gawain should by all logical and mathematical common sense be above Lu Bu, and Madness boost or no I see literally no freaking way Lu Bu would tank a hit from the likes of Lion King seriously intending to kill him.
The most telling fact that makes this dubious beyond measure is that Gawain is skilled enough that he would have made short work of Mordred if Mordred hadn't jumped him right after Lancelot pummeled him, and Mordred doesn't even contest this despite being very verbal when she disagrees with something. Someone that by all means should be more skilled than Lu Bu in his mindless state AND outright more powerful, being on par? I don't buy it.
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Imo, extella scaling should only be in extella.
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Extella had one too many beers, I tell you.
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Herc going all out is something worth mentioning considering he spends the entire war nerfed and still smacking everyone he fights.
1. Prove that the Excalibur used is far stronger than Saber's physicals. You act as if her usage of it is anywhere close to what Rin or Kerry Saber can pull off. The attack doesn't need to be a full power Excaliblast to affect Herc, just an A rank attack. Her physicals are B, Excalipoke is likely A.
2. A is 25% stronger than B. Him really trying for one means he still has to try pretty hard for the other. Take your pic.
You realise Saber could very well be stronger than the attack considering she needs an A rank to bypass GH, something she can't do with her B rank strength since it doesn't care about strength but just the rank. See GoB, all the treasures are fired the same and thus have the same strength for the most part but only the A ranks are useful because the rank is the only relevant thing.
Maybe for other characters but Herc is constantly being held back, noted to be as such and just learning that that is the case has people going "Holy shit. This guy isn't actually full power yet?" because he outclasses them so much that its not even funny.
Its like you are ignoring everything I type. You are the one who has to prove that an already nerfed Saber who is low on mana even when taking into account Shirou's poor Master ability, is using a NP that is supposedly on par with Herc's full might when it doesn't need to be and he has gone through the entire route without going all out at all.
1. Prove that the Excalibur used is far stronger than Saber's physicals. You act as if her usage of it is anywhere close to what Rin or Kerry Saber can pull off. The attack doesn't need to be a full power Excaliblast to affect Herc, just an A rank attack. Her physicals are B, Excalipoke is likely A.
2. A is 25% stronger than B. Him really trying for one means he still has to try pretty hard for the other. Take your pic.
You realise Saber could very well be stronger than the attack considering she needs an A rank to bypass GH, something she can't do with her B rank strength since it doesn't care about strength but just the rank. See GoB, all the treasures are fired the same and thus have the same strength for the most part but only the A ranks are useful because the rank is the only relevant thing.
Maybe for other characters but Herc is constantly being held back, noted to be as such and just learning that that is the case has people going "Holy shit. This guy isn't actually full power yet?" because he outclasses them so much that its not even funny.
Its like you are ignoring everything I type. You are the one who has to prove that an already nerfed Saber who is low on mana even when taking into account Shirou's poor Master ability, is using a NP that is supposedly on par with Herc's full might when it doesn't need to be and he has gone through the entire route without going all out at all.
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LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
Lu Bu is the one with B+ in Agility, Gawain has no boosts in Agility in the Moon Cell. They don't necessarily have to be neck-to-neck, the wording was that he should be on par with Gawain. In an actual battle, not everything will play out like on paper. There's no telling who will activate their plus modifiers first. Regardless though, Gawain did win against Lu Bu with high difficulty.
Mordred and Lu Bu is not a fair comparison. You're doing a major disservice to a guy that's like the second coming of Herc who mastered all kinds of martial arts in life and has a Noble Phantasm where he shows that mastery, similar to Nine Lives. Sure he may have lost variations of God Force techniques with ME, but as we can see with Herc such Berserkers don't completely lose their skill. On the other hand, Mordred just relies mostly on brute force, prana burst and her instincts. In any case, it's not so ridiculous that it's dubious beyond measure.
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1. The Profiles literally saying it is.
For god sakes we even rank Saber as 6C with Excaliblast compared to her 7A, if we're going the route that it's not that much stronger why do we even bother with this thread and just rank them as High 7A if they're not that much stronger.
Even if this was the case, Saber doesn't get slapped away like Excaliblast does, even if Excaliblast was literally the same level of strength as her.
You didn't pull up that Heracles was holding back though, so I concede there.
For god sakes we even rank Saber as 6C with Excaliblast compared to her 7A, if we're going the route that it's not that much stronger why do we even bother with this thread and just rank them as High 7A if they're not that much stronger.
Even if this was the case, Saber doesn't get slapped away like Excaliblast does, even if Excaliblast was literally the same level of strength as her.
You didn't pull up that Heracles was holding back though, so I concede there.
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Partial release from Excalibur is supposed to be 10 times stronger than Invisible Air, and a C rank NP deals around A - A+ damage (50 - 100) in the regular attack scale. That would put a partial release around 500 - 1000. Heck even if you measure the damage from a C rank regular attack as opposed to a NP attack so you start with a value of 30 than 50/100, that's still three times what Hercules could theoretically output. I doubt Excalipoke is as strong as a normal partial release since Artoria vanished after firing it due to a lack of mana, but saying Herc casually swat it aside without hitting his plus modifier is kinda silly.
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@Hun
As much as I would love for that to be the case, Caliburn as an A+ NP only scales to x7 A rank. Excalibur's partial release being x10 IA doesn't make sense at all or else Saber wouldn't need to ever use a full power Excaliblast against anything that isn't Gil or other God tier standard class.
As much as I would love for that to be the case, Caliburn as an A+ NP only scales to x7 A rank. Excalibur's partial release being x10 IA doesn't make sense at all or else Saber wouldn't need to ever use a full power Excaliblast against anything that isn't Gil or other God tier standard class.
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She usually doesn't need to anyway.
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That part was stated though. Using how many times Herc dies as a measuring tool is weird. I don't think you can kill Herc with an A rank attack spread out through his whole body as how a beam deals damage. You'd have to pierce him in the heart or target his vitals, so regular A attack = 1 death doesn't really work out. How much he dies has also always varied case by case. At the same rank Bellerophon supposedly takes 1 - 2 lives, Nine Lives take even more than Caliburn, etc.
She used it against the Grail, Not! Cthulhu, in response to Bellerophon and then Gil. Seems reasonable to me. We got to see some big fireworks from Alter in HF, it helps when you suppose a "partial release" might be anywhere from 30% to 60% or higher as Excalibur only amplifies the amount of mana Artoria puts in it.
The max output should be around 1000 - 1500, since EA is 1600 when you add Gil's STRx20 + MGIx20, it then makes sense why it is described as "equal or superior" to Excalibur but because of its conceptual effect (+2400) they are incomparable. Damage calc check out with the statements.
She used it against the Grail, Not! Cthulhu, in response to Bellerophon and then Gil. Seems reasonable to me. We got to see some big fireworks from Alter in HF, it helps when you suppose a "partial release" might be anywhere from 30% to 60% or higher as Excalibur only amplifies the amount of mana Artoria puts in it.
The max output should be around 1000 - 1500, since EA is 1600 when you add Gil's STRx20 + MGIx20, it then makes sense why it is described as "equal or superior" to Excalibur but because of its conceptual effect (+2400) they are incomparable. Damage calc check out with the statements.
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EA's attack output is increased the more he uses gate of babylon. That affect was shown in Strange Fake. Not for sure if its in stay night.
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According to his FSN profile, that's after the maximum damage he can cause which is 4000. I was referring to the statement from CM3. It's also stated more along the lines that he supports himself with the Noble Phantasms in Gate of Babylon. Probably something to boost his stats like STR or MGI which effects EA. Still though, based off what we saw in CCC and Strange Fake, the boost doesn't seem to be very high.
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Uuuhhh... no. Normal Gawain summoned by Ritsuka in FGO has all B+ in his abilities, and Ritsuka doesn't exactly massively buff his Servants or anything like that. That is just Gawain normal level of prowess unless he were to get a master that was truly incompetent. Even if we decided to use Gawain under Hakuno, which only makes his AGI B, that would still turn into B++ since its an increase of 3 times, leaving Lu Bu in the dust speed wise and not even mentioning power wise.
I really don't see what is the point about stating all this of Lu Bu when he's a mad berserker that keeps none of his skill. The Mordred point was not even a direct comparison either, just to underline the fact that Gawain is not a muscle imbecile, he's STUPIDLY skilled and the only one that really surpassed him was Lancelot (and by logic Galahad but he's being a dick). So Gawain would keep all of this skill and would be his physical superior through Numeral of the Saint, yet he'd have a hard fight? On par? How does this make any sense...?
Also no, it wasn't that Herk didn't lose all his skill, it was that his Eye of the Mind was already on the level of an instinct so feints and half assed fighting wouldn't gain you much. Lu Bu is below in literally every category when Numeral of the Saint is on, which it should be if we are scaling Lu Bu to him in that state, yet somehow Gawain has a hard time? How can anyone believe this?
I really don't see what is the point about stating all this of Lu Bu when he's a mad berserker that keeps none of his skill. The Mordred point was not even a direct comparison either, just to underline the fact that Gawain is not a muscle imbecile, he's STUPIDLY skilled and the only one that really surpassed him was Lancelot (and by logic Galahad but he's being a dick). So Gawain would keep all of this skill and would be his physical superior through Numeral of the Saint, yet he'd have a hard fight? On par? How does this make any sense...?
Also no, it wasn't that Herk didn't lose all his skill, it was that his Eye of the Mind was already on the level of an instinct so feints and half assed fighting wouldn't gain you much. Lu Bu is below in literally every category when Numeral of the Saint is on, which it should be if we are scaling Lu Bu to him in that state, yet somehow Gawain has a hard time? How can anyone believe this?
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