Strength A+ servant

[Hun_Tiandi]

Uuuhhh... no. Normal Gawain summoned by Ritsuka in FGO has all B+ in his abilities, and Ritsuka doesn't exactly massively buff his Servants or anything like that. That is just Gawain normal level of prowess unless he were to get a master that was truly incompetent. Even if we decided to use Gawain under Hakuno, which only makes his AGI B, that would still turn into B++ since its an increase of 3 times, leaving Lu Bu in the dust speed wise and not even mentioning power wise.
I really don't see what is the point about stating all this of Lu Bu when he's a mad berserker that keeps none of his skill. The Mordred point was not even a direct comparison either, just to underline the fact that Gawain is not a muscle imbecile, he's STUPIDLY skilled and the only one that really surpassed him was Lancelot (and by logic Galahad but he's being a dick). So Gawain would keep all of this skill and would be his physical superior through Numeral of the Saint, yet he'd have a hard fight? On par? How does this make any sense...?

We are using Gawain in the Mooncell because we are talking about Lu Bu being stated on par with him and fighting equally in it, there's no point in using his FGO stats. His stats have just been re-adjusted, because there's absolutely no way he was disadvantaged in any way being summoned under Leo, the Goldy of masters, or the Mooncell. Numerals has no effect on his agility, so his speed is staying at B rank. Read the description again.

And where did you get that he keeps none of his skills? It's only stated that he lost most of the techniques from God force which is his mastery of all the weapons or "strengths" that existed during the time, but not all of them are gone as his spear and basic artillery techniques remain. Good enough to tango with a Saber, it just means he's not going to fire beams from his mouth among other mecha stuff, transform his spear into other weapons for "hacking, slamming, mowing, brusing and shooting". He keeps most of his moveset from Extella. Furthermore, the halberg would give range advantage as well.

If Gawain is the most skilled knight after Lancelot and Galahad in the Round Table, then Lu Bu is considered one of the most, if not the most powerful (stated in his mats) in the Three Kingdoms due to his martial prowess. That's the thing Gawain isn't fighting a simpleton either, he's fighting a Chinese Berzerkerlot with a halberg, who can both hurt him, blitz him and withstand his attacks through Numerals.

Analyze them by their character and it's likely that Lu Bu will recklessly rampage like what happened in Extella while Gawain will be more reserved under the sun. Lu Bu will use his plus modifiers first, and Gawain takes heavy hits. But due to this recklessness, Gawain will ultimately end up taking the match.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

We are talking about A+ STR Servants in general here, doing a vacuum where only one context is analyzed is asking for skewed and useless results. Yes? Numeral of the Saint boosts his power by a factor of 3, which is not something we can equate to just STR and END, but feel free to post justification for why we would do this. Power is a pretty malleable and open word.

Because no Berserk keeps most of their skills with the stark exception of those with sufficiently low Berserkering or those with Eternal Arms Mastership. The only exception I could see is Li Shuwen, who was still described as possessing traits of Berserker and Assassin instead of being an outright assassin, has a whole skill meant to showcase his deep and nearly flawless skill (pretty similar to Eternal Arms Mastership), and despite all this its noted he uses Fierce Tiger Forcibly Climbs A Mountain because he has stopped feeling the mind of his opponent under the pressure of his insanity. Herakles can manifest Nine Lives, a demonstration of his martial skill, as a Berserk in FGO and he's no less wild and bereft of skill in here. You could also read this from the Extra Material book, "All heroes who are summoned into the berserker class lose their mind in exchange for a strengthening of their parameters, and as a result they also lose the ability to use most of their special trained skills.
This berserker has lost all his military related skills from when he was alive, but in exchange his defiant nature has been sealed away." . Due reminder that Extra Lu Bu can use God Force as well, so this is no contradiction.

You are emphasizing the skill aspect of a Berserk with almost none of his skill remaining is my point. And against someone that physically overpowers him nearly 3 times over and keeps all of his skill differently from him. And somehow we should still believe Gawain won with great difficulty. Mhm, sure. When the stats aren't that different, you aren't gonna explain Gawain's immense difference in power away just saying he doesn't have Leo now.

 

[Hun_Tiandi]

We are talking about A+ STR Servants in general here, doing a vacuum where only one context is analyzed is asking for skewed and useless results. Yes? Numeral of the Saint boosts his power by a factor of 3, which is not something we can equate to just STR and END, but feel free to post justification for why we would do this. Power is a pretty malleable and open word.

You and I are talking about how Lu Bu compares to Gawain in the Mooncell because that's what I replied to. If it's about A+ STR servants in general, the conclusion I gave in my initial reply is that save a few 3 - 4 that are either monsters or robots, there aren't many who can handle sun Gawain relying only on their stats and modifers.

No, there's no reason to assume a speed boost. Numerals has been stated to increase his power threefold, but it also has been stated to increase his Strength and Endurance seperately in Extra, CCC and Foxtail which is also what we consistently observe. No mention of threefold Agility, neither is it ever implied or salient. Special pleading is not a justification. If you want to add no limits you might as well say his MGI goes through the roof because Numerals boosts Galatine. If his Agility was B++ Lancelot would have been unable to keep him in melee and would have been toast through Galatine. We know how the fight played out from Camelot. Lancelot won due to Arondight's unique properties of indestructibility and its advantage in melee due to being an Anti-Unit NP. Interestingly, Lu Bu's halberg is also made to be perfect for melee.

I notice a change in phrasing from a mad Berserker that keeps none of his skill, to Berserkers generally losing most of their skills. In what way have I denied Lu Bu also losing a large part of his martial prowess? I've continously pointed the caveats out and argued while taking that into consideration, different from what you're doing. In fact, if I did believe Lu Bu could use the full extents of his skills, I would stop saying Gawain ultimately wins because the results could go either way. The quote you provided from Lu Bu's Extra profile is explained in more detail in his matrix: This lead to the creation of Lu Bu's Noble Phantasm, which allows him to use his vast knowledge of the martial arts to adapt to and take advantage of his opponent's weaknesses. Due to being under the effects of the Blind Rage enhancement, most of Lu Bu's skills have been erased from his mind and only his knowledge of the spear and of basic artillery (such as cannons) remains.

Like I elaborated earlier, he loses the ability to use all kinds of martial skill with different weapons in a single class, we see how that looks from his animation update. However he still retains his spearsmanship, which is enough to fight against Gawain. If he retained his other skills, I'd put him above Gawain in martial skills. Feel free to express your personal incredulity and sarcasm, but completely shutting yourself off to canon isn't gonna change what happened, I'm afraid. I emphasized plus modifiers which definitely doesn't put Gawain three times above Lu Bu, it is in fact a small difference(100/110 vs 120). Then I empathized skills to show you Lu Bu isn't some walking mindless brute but still retains his spearmanship. You on the other hand, keep ignoring everything and are going on a downplay spiral.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

But that's the whole point. This discussion about Gawain concerns those same A+ Servants because we assume, and we have no reason not to, that anybody at this level of strength should be comparable even if not on par, meaning High 7-A STR A+ Servants. This is not a vacuum discussion, especially when Gawain is hardly different except for one + in one stat between Grand Order and Extella.

Not really? Lancelot had Arondight out, boosting him up, plus Knight of the Lake letting him boost his agility further. We've seen even slower Servants being able to keep up one way or another with faster ones that have even bigger gaps in speed, or we would assume Vlad and Babbage never hit anyone. Though could you show where in Fox Tail or CCC is said only STR and END are augmented?

Because what skill is lost is not the same. Not everyone is Herakles with Eye of the Mind ingrained on the level of pure instinct, but most of them have literally no skill at all. And could you perhaps show where you got this from? I see such claims nowhere in the entries for the material books.

Or perhaps you happily ignore everything I am saying? It is incredible you speak of downplay when Gawain has and this is going by your idea, without Numeral of the Saint, B+ in both strength and endurance. If we decide to use the numbers from fate as comparison, that'd be about 80 to Lu Bu's 100. Now boost that by a factor of 3. Suddenly, he has 240 on both. I don't know what incredibly contrived way to get those numbers you used, but they are obviously off the mark. And I would prefer you didn't imply me ignoring or "downplaying" anything when I've given specific examples and quotes, I am getting really tired of people pulling off that nonsense because it suits them.

 

[Hun_Tiandi]

Well if you want to focus on how the other A+ STR servants fare off against sun Gawain, then like before I'm going with Sigurd. Charles Babbage, Asterious and Gorgon have the stats to tango with him, but I'm not so sure about the skill requirement.

The problem is you were arguing Gawain's Agility gains a threefold increase which would be permanent until sunset, and the boost Lancelot gains is for a temporary period. Unlike Gawain vs Lu Bu which was relatively quicker, this battle went on for quite a long time, almost an entire day. How many times would Lancelot have to boost his speed to keep up? Furthermore, this isn't the Mooncell and if we assume Gawain also retains his (+) modifier in AGI it's not a difference of 1 or 2 but 6 ranks.

In Foxtail, when Gawain used Numerals against Passionlip and Meltlith, it mentions his Strength and again when he used the temporary version against Karna Endurance was mentioned. As for CCC, I'll have to go through a lot of chapters again to dig that up. But again, this is something we consistently see. For example it was mentioned in Camelot that it's not just about being unable to hurt Gawain, you also have to withstand his blows. No mention or implication of his agility here either.

Lu Bu is practically a chinese equivalent of someone with an Arms Mastery, but rather than the skill it is represented by his Noble Phantasm. It's reasonable to suppose he is one of the exceptions you spoke of. It would certainly back up all the hype surrounding him of being one of Tamamo's Aces alongside Karna, and the fact you need to use regalia just to stop his rampage. Not to mention the feats he pulled off in his side story is very impressive. It's near equal to what the other Top Servants (Karna, Artoria, Iskander, Gil) pulled off in their side stories. The information as I mentioned earlier is from Lu Bu's Fate/Extra matrix. It's also in the references of his wiki page if you scroll down for a bit.

But I haven't ignored Gawain's own modifier? I said Gawain is superior on paper, in an actual battle however it's difficult to ascertain who activates their boosts first. That's where you aren't analyzing the battle critically, imo. He already has his stats boosted to the extent that he normally doesn't require those modifiers against 98% of servants in melee. As opposed to Lu Bu who goes all out in his rampage, since he is a Berserker. Which is why I said Gawain sustains heavy injuries in the earliest exchanges, but ultimately wins because his strength is permanent until sun set on top of his modifiers. This is exactly what happened. Also your calculation is wrong, Gawain's STR and CON is around 160 with Numerals + modifiers. A (+) modifier is an increment of the rank it represents.

You've kinda been arguing to the extent of making Lu Bu a mindless beast with zero skill while also ignoring that I'm only talking about them being on par in the instance where he activates his (+) modifiers by saying Gawain physically overwhelms him, if that isn't downplaying I don't know what is.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Not really, as skill would make up for that. All Lancelot would need is to get used, like Emiya getting used to Lancer while Emiya is not nearly as skilled as Lancelot. We have people like Vlad keeping up despite a paltry AGI of E, its far from impossible for Lancelot.

I don't think we really get speed mentioned much either for someone like Lancelot with Arondight, or like anyone else that gets a boost in stats. We don't see them suddenly moving faster or get this noted to us.

Except someone equivalent like Herakles still gets sealed, so for me this is doubtful. Someone else on the level of Li Shuwen as well, and his Chinese Martial Arts skill even denotes how it implicates way more difficulty and A rank denotes actual mastery, rather than high mastery. And I'd personally take the Material book over the matrix. Even in Extella, the big majority of his attacks with said halberd are rather simplistic (big swipes, big smashes, and thrusts).

No...? + has never been an increment, is a multiplication. Even Gawain's Knight of the Lake points this out, saying the stat with the plus modifier more or less doubles. So B+ is 80, multiplied by a factor of 3 as the Numeral of the Saint clearly explains, turning it into 240.

You can see it here. This was explained all the way in Fate Side Material. And Numeral of the Saint would be on from the moment there's Sun, is not something Gawain just keeps off because he doesn't wanna overrun unnecessarily.

But even if he activates said modifiers, Gawain still completely outclasses him in pure stats. Gawain has his own plus modifiers on his stats and has no reason to hold back in battle, especially in this one. And I am saying Lu Bu is mindless because everyone like him is pretty much the same with the exception of those with a low Madness or a specific skill that he doesn't have. Someone comparable, Herakles, is no different and his animations in Extella don't seem to hint differently, there's only one quote that would imply something else and contradicted by his description in the Extra Material book.

 

[Hun_Tiandi]

No...? + has never been an increment, is a multiplication. Even Gawain's Knight of the Lake points this out, saying the stat with the plus modifier more or less doubles. So B+ is 80, multiplied by a factor of 3 as the Numeral of the Saint clearly explains, turning it into 240.

You can see it here. This was explained all the way in Fate Side Material. And Numeral of the Saint would be on from the moment there's Sun, is not something Gawain just keeps off because he doesn't wanna overrun unnecessarily.

It is multiplication of the initial value, which is just an increment of the same value, it's even represented in the symbol. You can see it in the picture you posted yourself. C++ would be 120 if it was double that of C+ rather than C times 3.

Also I don't mean Numerals stays off because Gawain doesn't want it to overrun, I was talking about the (+) modifier he has even without the increase from Numerals. While the 3x is active he normally doesn't require further strength or endurance from his (+) modifier which is temporary, it's enough for him to get caught off guard through Lu Bu's sudden increase. Whether the maximum value Gawain can reach is 160 or 240 is irrelevant, because I'm not saying Lu Bu will survive, much less win against that.

Emiya could never speed blitz Cu while he wasn't held back by a command seal, he got curbstomped in the 2nd fight. He was skilled enough to shine in the first though. I'm not too familiar with Extra Vlad, so I can't comment on that, but I'm really curious how you think Lancelot could keep up; when in your view, Numerals and the (+) would give Gawain a value of 240 in Agility. In your calculation, it's a difference in value of 14 ranks. No amount of skill surmounts that. Lancelot can deal with this, but Lu Bu somehow gets physically overwhelmed in everything?

Numerals Gawain just has 120 in STR and CON, that can momentarily go upto 160 but he's unlikely to boost himself further since he doesn't need it. With this Lancelot and Lu Bu are still inferior to sunbuff Gawain, but they are relative. It makes sense for one to stalemate Gawain for an entire day, and the other to give him a tough fight.

His matrix profile is also part of the data provided, it's not any less canon unless it is retconned by subsequent works or a mistranslation. You say his moves in Extella looks simplistic, it certainly isn't very fast or swift, but it looks pretty elegant and powerful fitting someone of his size and strength. It even indicates that despite losing the abilities of God Force, he can still perform hacking, slamming, mowing, brusing and shooting but without his weapon transforming.

Heracles in FSN was loaded with enough Mad Enhancement to obey every order of the Einzbern, he appears to be more free in FGO where Gudau neither has the need or mana to load him up with ME. It's not wise to assume other Berserkers would be the same, when we even have the information (Extra Matrix) and seen his moveset (Extella) to suggest that isn't the case.

 

[John985]

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[John985]

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[AshenCrow777]

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