Star Wars Discussion Thread Canon/Legends- Episode IV The Phantom Lore

[CSO_Class_Supercarrier]

100 percent agree the last movie in the Skywalker saga could not outdone Rouge One when adjusted for inflation numbers and thier is zero way is costed only 275 million to make when the last jedi cost some 40 million more than it and that movie did not good tough massive pre production production and post-production helll for multiple months at all. The Rise of Skywalker did go tough it not the last cannon. Hyperspace ramming breaks cannon

 

[CSO_Class_Supercarrier]

The Last Jedi objectively breaks StarWars cannon because if hyperspace ramming was a thing why did they not hyperspace ram the falcon into the death star. Hyperspace ram the Mon Cal cruisers in to the Second Death Star Hyperspace Ram the nearest moon to starkiller base. Hyperspace ram starfighters into capital warships. None of that happens till a purple haired ballroom dress women who is a vice admiral around a corvette grade warship hyperspace rams in the supremacy and the ship is not even destroyed.

 

[Catalyst75]

The idea of hyperspace accidents existed in the Legends canon as well. Saxton's "cross-sections book" even made mention of a ship having a hyperspace collision with a planet - The Quaestor and the planet Pammant, which is elaborated upon in a Star Wars Encyclopedia and other sources.

It is not anything new; to deny that it was something that can and has happened in Legends all the way back in 2005 is basically trying to re-write history.

 

[CSO_Class_Supercarrier]

That is much different than hyperspace ramming because that is propose not by mistake I am rewriting history and those are extended universe and never were cannon

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Aside from dismissing and outright mocking plot points and characters in The Force Awakens, and basicly demolishing Abrams' mystery box by placing a nasty surprise to troll, the plot of The Last Jedi is incoherent and the 'Holdo Manuever' is no exception. The 'Holdo Manuever' destroys all tension in space battles, and it establishes that every military commander since the invention of hyperdrives are idiots; there is always the looming question of why the enemy fleet or base does not get destroyed by a simple and easy to do kamikaze attack (which destroyed half of Snoke's giant ship + at least ten star destroyers).

 

[CSO_Class_Supercarrier]

You understand my points thank you

 

[Catalyst75]

Aside from dismissing and outright mocking plot points and characters in The Force Awakens, and basicly demolishing Abrams' mystery box by placing a nasty surprise to troll, the plot of The Last Jedi is incoherent and the 'Holdo Manuever' is no exception. The 'Holdo Manuever' destroys all tension in space battles, and it establishes that every military commander since the invention of hyperdrives are idiots; there is always the looming question of why the enemy fleet or base does not get destroyed by a simple and easy to do kamikaze attack (which destroyed half of Snoke's giant ship + at least ten star destroyers).

"Demolishing Abram's mystery box".

You mean, the box that had nothing in it to begin with? The "mystery box" is an over-rated tool, one that focuses more on the "mystery" than bothering to give characters actual development. Actual character development gives the audience tangible clues as to who someone or what something is; a mystery box does not.

Abrams gave no clues for Rey's parentage in Force Awakens other than she is Force-Sensitive, something that describes Palpatine and every last Prequel-era Jedi of the Jedi Order not named Anakin Skywalker. Abrams was the one who gave us no clues as to who Snoke was, where he came from, or the reason for his obsession with Luke Skywalker. Abrams was the one who gave no clues as to why Luke went off to an island in the middle of an ocean on a planet in the middle of nowhere, and no real clues as to why Ben turned to the Dark Side.

Abrams gave Rian Johnson nothing to work with, when you bother to look at everything. Because Abrams gave Johnson nothing to work with, Johnson did his best to write his own story based on what ephemeral points Abrams established in "Force Awakens". The fault lies in Abrams, not Johnson.

Oh, and to answer that "looming question", it's very simple: it's always a one-shot deal that only guarantees mutually assured destruction. Anyone in a situation where they have any amount of control will always choose the tactics and options that will allow them victory with the fewest possible casualties. From a star-fighter to a capital ship, that applies. Whether it is a space battle or a ground battle, that applies. Whether it is armies fighting on an open field or whether it is one force trying to capture the stronghold of an enemy, that applies.

Ramming is the kind of maneuver you use when there are no other options available to you and there is a desperate need to attain an objective. In other words, it is a last resort maneuver, like how it was portray in The Last Jedi - Holdo only did it when it was the only option able to save the remainder of the Resistance.

Common sense and practical military strategy is why the Holdo Maneuver, even when it is established as something possible in the setting, doesn't break the series. There are almost always better options that don't result in sacrificing your life and your ship.

 

[CSO_Class_Supercarrier]

Even though we have never seen in cannon even tough multiple payments could have been made all before. Yeah after she lost over 66 percent of her transports without telling anyone or really doing anything. Common sense and practical military strategy is is a maybe but it is well establhised before the last jedi. What about both of the death stars and starkillerbase. The attack on the death star was a last ditch effort to save laves.

 

[CSO_Class_Supercarrier]

It breaks the story because it was the perfect weapons the rebel could have deployed on the death if it was possible . It was retroactivity made possible because of the plot. Matter masss energy and force cannot interact with the real universe around with the expansions being gravity well projectors and interdiction fields because starships have to clear gravity wells in order to safely jump to hyperspace. The women did not tell anyone her plan let over 66 percent of her transports get destroyed by the enemy and let them get stranded without the one ship that could carry and support them over long and extended distances at a time

 

[Catalyst75]

I only have so much patience to deal with someone who can't write anything coherent, so I'll make this quick.

Who is to say that the Death Star doesn't have enough fire-power on hand to obliterate any capital ship the moment it registers a ship priming its hyperdrive to jump at it, just as the Supremacy noticed with the Raddus, albeit too late? Who is to say the Death Star's shields, given it has enough power to destroy a planet, wouldn't be durable enough that any capital ships attempting to jump at it wouldn't just destroy themselves on said shield (and stuff like that happened in Legends,with a Super Star Destroyer surviving such a collision with three Star Destroyers coming out of hyperspace ).

The Rise of Skywalker also went out of its way to describe how the odds of pulling off the maneuver at one-in-a-million. The same odds that were involved in making the exhaust port shot on the Death Star.

There are extreme odds against it working in every situation. It shows that ships accelerate to light-speed before entering hyperspace, and it is within that narrow window of acceleration that needs to be timed precisely for it to work with the same devastating effect that it did on the Supremacy.

No one evidently complained the times Legends had hyper-space collisions/accidents occurred; no one complained when Anakin rigged the Malevolence to jump into an uninhabited moon to destroy it.

Complaining about it now is just irrational.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

I agree that Abrams' writing was lazy and pandering in The Force Awakens (making the New Republic extremely incompetent and weak to created extremely underfunded rebel underdogs, Kylo murdering his only source of information to Luke's location to prove that he is evil like Darth Vader instead of reading his mind first, etc.)

Also, there is more to Rey's parentage than just being a Force Sensitive orphan; Rey was insistant on staying on Jakku because she was sure her parents are going to come back to her for some unknown reason. Also, she was extremely skilled without any in-lore explanation (extremely skilled pilot and even praised as such, extremely skilled mechanic even superior to Han and Chewbacca, can speak the Droid language despite little to no interaction, can speak the Wookie language despite little to no interaction, can quickly learn to use Force powers and a lightsaber just after 'discovering' the Force exists).

Also, it is not like Rian gave Snoke any depth. He presented him as a mustache twirling villain who wanted to kill Luke because he is a Jedi (a mythical and forgotten organization to most) in order to extinguish the last bit of hope in the galaxy, but Luke later refutes his logic by stating that thinking the light disappears if the Jedi die out is foolish vanity. Abrams' is at fault for his lazy writing but he set up things with potential that Rian discarded.

• Anakin's lightsaber calling out to Rey and giving her visions? Luke dismissively throws it over his shoulder, and it later gets shattered.

• Why Luke left map fragments leading to his location? For no reason, he doesn't want to be found by anyone and he isn't protecting anything, in fact he doesn't want to protect the galaxy from Snoke.

• What was Luke doing for years? He was waiting to die because he no longer believes that the worst of people are capable of redemption nor does he believe he is obligated to be a hero or that he should protect his loved ones; the Jedi should die out because they suck.

• Why did Kylo turn to the dark side? Luke became a radically different character, so when he sensed that there was a bit of Dark Side in Kylo, Luke tried to mind read a sleeping Kylo instead of talk to him, and he sensed that Kylo can potentially do bad things in the future so Luke tried to murder Kylo as an innocent sleeping teenager in his sleep in a moment of weakness.

• Who is Kylo really talking to and consulting when is talking to Darth Vader's helmet? He was not actually speaking to anybody; Snoke explains that Kylo is just a child who is wearing a stupid mask, the mask is stupid so Kylo shatters it to pieces in a ship that later explodes.

• Hux is presented and described as a ruthless Tarkin clone but he has a rivalry with Kylo, why and what will he do? No need to worry, turns out Hux is just a bumbling bafoon.

Again, there was a lot of potential even in an uninspired mystery box, but Rian demolished it to troll; this is called character derailment, not character development. Rian even recently admitted in an interview that he doesn't think in terms of worlds or universes and that he is just interested in making a two hours experience (and even then, the plot of The Last Jedi was internally incoherent and falls flat on its face).

It has been established that Hyperspace Ramming is overpowered, so much that it makes all depicted space military tactics obsolete. No lives need to be sacrificed to use this tactic since hyperspace projectiles (which are cheaper than a ship made to sustain hundreds, if not thousands, of crew members) can be made. Why didn't every military create hyperspace projectiles to ram them into other ships?

You are trying to strawman the complaint with "Why are you upset that hyperspace ramming exists?". The problem is that it exists, while it is extremely overpowered.

The Supremacy has a crew of 2.225 million, and it was the First Order's capital and most powerful ship, yet its deflector shields were completely useless against hyperspace ramming; the ship was cut like a hot knife through butter. Meaning that this attack is unblockable and can't be defended against. It can potentially be used light years away, and at minimum it can be used outside the range of capital ship turbolasers. So why not create hyperspace projectile for cheap unblockable attacks that can demolish fleets of Star Destroyers? A makeshift version is even possible by evacuating the crew of a ship, and programming that ship to ram at hyperspace.

TLJ's novelization tried to retcon the Holdo Manuever by saying that it was possible due to how the Raddus' experimental shields reacted after the ramming (which is contradicted by Hux panicking and screaming "NO!" isntead of saying "Heh. It'll never get through the Supremacy's shields"). TRoS tried to retcon it by saying that it was one in a million shot... for reasons computers cannot calculate (which again is contradicted by Hux's reaction).

Common sense is mass-producing unblockable hyperspace projectiles to snipe capital ships (and any fleet ship behind it) and military bases light years away. Which again, establishes that every military commander since the invention of hyperdrives is an idiot.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

No flying a cruiser at lightspeed wont destroy the death star because lighspeed in star wars has shown consistently not to be IRL ligthspeed and ontop of that we have already seen how destructive Lightspeed can be in canon (in the clone wars the Malevolence flies straight into a small moon and according to the script blows a hole through it, this isnt even continental level let alone planetary) Cruisers would get the mosquito on a windscreen treatment in regards to the death star.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

also Nah TLJ ws great and retrospectively the only modern star wars film that's worth something.

 

[LordWhis]

I believe Abrams wanted Rey to be a skywalker. Johnson retconned him in TLJ. And then Abrams retconned Johnson in ROS. In some ways the entire trilogy was a cat fight between Abrams and Johnson.

 

[LordWhis]

also Nah TLJ ws great and retrospectively the only modern star wars film that's worth something.

R1 says hi. Honestly I am compiling a list of the best films of the decade and R1 will definitely take one of the top spots.

Also even Solo was worth something, relative to episode 7 and 9. Though that palpatine lightning feat was one of the coolest cinematic moments in history.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Only reference to Destroy Maleovolence script I found is here , do you know any reference regarding the damage done to the moon? Also, not the entire Death Star need to be violently fragmented; blowing up the lens would disable its firing capabilities.

What do you like about TLJ? If you give it the slightest thought, the plot of the movie is internally incoherent, and the choreography isn't particularly good.

Do you think the Prequels' worldbuilding wasn't worth something for the Star Wars franchise?

 

[LordWhis]

TLJ was a deeply flawed film but it at least broke new ground for the Star Wars franchise. It was unexpected, different. Unlike the samey nonsense that were the other 2 sequel films.

 

[CSO_Class_Supercarrier]

Yes shadow a mon cal cruiser at the right angle would send the death star in the sun. The raddus lacks experimental shileds because is conderdicted multiple times both in universe form Hux say no rather than any other thing. We also did not see any visible new shielding effects like when a shield gets get or hit anything like quint ltierary anyother time in the history of the franchise. The Rise of Skywalker pisses all over The Last Jedi Hyperspace ramming is bullshit now Force Healing Force Telleportation Force Ghosts can attack the real star wars universe now. Palatine is somwhow still avlie even tough he fell dowm the reactor shift of a immense space station thart was completely otrbiltered in return of the jedi and was later rectoned. The Rise of SkyWalker fixes lukes fighter Kaylos mask

 

[CSO_Class_Supercarrier]

Why is not hyperspace capable missiles and torpedoes are thing in strars wars considering interdiction field and gravity well-based technologies are. And would be an excellent countermeasure against such technologies even though the first order had none of that. It did brake new ground only to have the Rise of Skywalker piss all over it the second it could at every single moment it wanted to it recons everything at once Yeah the hyperspace ramming was a stunning paert of the moview but is objectilvry breaks the cannons because the rebals were just as disparte has the resistnece was and did not pull it off even though it should have been possible to hyperspace ram the falcon or just put all the proton torpedos together and find the port and hyperspace ram the proton torpdoes into the death star they did not. Nor was lukes shot a one in a million shot because he made oit on his first try

 

[CSO_Class_Supercarrier]

Even people who like the dam movie hated Canto Bright the space horses Lukes arc and the extremely severe lack of training for Ray in that movie. the space chase or the dreadnought gun run made any sesne . Poe being demoted when a ******* dreadnought was about blow up the fleet was. Poe toke advantge of the stupid first order dreadnought lack of point defence systems escorts small fract and engagement range and blow it up with rhe bombers. Leia should not have demoted himven if he was going against orders it saved everyone lives and help the last remaining transports escape into the Raddus. Holo should have been fired for not telling anyone about her stupid plot thing that got 3 out of the 4 capital ships destroyed most of the small craft crew mebers and transports destroyed. None of the star destroyers launched any fighters transports turbolasers or ion cannons at fleet. The supremacy only launched about 4 small craft.

 

[CSO_Class_Supercarrier]

The First order should have deployed multiple fighter groups and massive turbolaser and ion cannon bombardment at the fleet and the planet. Deployed hundreds of thousands of ground troops thousands of walkers and other ground vehicles long before the resistance jumped out of hyperspace and took the base. you have at least 3 dozen star destroyers in the first wave alone a ******* dreadnought the biggest in star wars histroy. and at least multiple other star destroyers jumping out of hyperspace the second you win that batttle and they still manged to escape. Why the hell are the first order not stupid they vastly outgun he ristnece by multiple orders of amgatue they should have steamrolled over tham like a godzilla over a dead baby.

 

[Catalyst75]

I agree that Abrams' writing was lazy and pandering in The Force Awakens (making the New Republic extremely incompetent and weak to created extremely underfunded rebel underdogs, Kylo murdering his only source of information to Luke's location to prove that he is evil like Darth Vader instead of reading his mind first, etc.)

Also, there is more to Rey's parentage than just being a Force Sensitive orphan; Rey was insistant on staying on Jakku because she was sure her parents are going to come back to her for some unknown reason. Also, she was extremely skilled without any in-lore explanation (extremely skilled pilot and even praised as such, extremely skilled mechanic even superior to Han and Chewbacca, can speak the Droid language despite little to no interaction, can speak the Wookie language despite little to no interaction, can quickly learn to use Force powers and a lightsaber just after 'discovering' the Force exists).

Also, it is not like Rian gave Snoke any depth. He presented him as a mustache twirling villain who wanted to kill Luke because he is a Jedi (a mythical and forgotten organization to most) in order to extinguish the last bit of hope in the galaxy, but Luke later refutes his logic by stating that thinking the light disappears if the Jedi die out is foolish vanity. Abrams' is at fault for his lazy writing but he set up things with potential that Rian discarded.

1. Luke didn't know his father's lightsaber gave Rey visions; he just saw a young girl presenting him with what he considered a symbol of his own failures.

2. You claim Luke "left fragments of a map" to his location, which I'm fairly certain is something he didn't do. Again, your head-canons don't equal what happens in the story.

3. Again, Abrams was the one who dropped Luke into exile to begin with, and Rian Johnson had to explain why Luke isolated himself from the rest of the Galaxy while the First Order was still out there. Again, you miss the point Luke was arguing: that the people of the galaxy don't need the Jedi to fix all their problems for them. That their problems wouldn't go away if Luke just went out and faced down the entire First Order with his lightsaber.

4. Because Luke obviously never tried to kill someone before because they posed a potential threat to his loved ones. Except it happened with Vader. Luke didn't want to fight him, but the moment Vader threatened Leia, Luke went berserk and came close to killing him. Luke saw Ben's future through the Force, something he believed Ben will become. And yes, it was a moment of weakness, which is why it was so devastating for Luke.

Again, Abrams gave Rian Johnson nothing concrete to work with. The head-canons you developed in the two years between Force Awakens and The Last Jedi don't count. I'm not addressing Vader's helmet because that was something that wasn't touched on by Rian Johnson in The Last Jedi, which is what made the reveal that Palpatine was manipulating Ben through impersonating Vader possible.

It has been established that Hyperspace Ramming is overpowered, so much that it makes all depicted space military tactics obsolete. No lives need to be sacrificed to use this tactic since hyperspace projectiles (which are cheaper than a ship made to sustain hundreds, if not thousands, of crew members) can be made. Why didn't every military create hyperspace projectiles to ram them into other ships?

Common sense is mass-producing unblockable hyperspace projectiles to snipe capital ships (and any fleet ship behind it) and military bases light years away.

Simply making the biggest, most destructive weapon and putting it on everything is not "common sense", especially when there is more to military tactics than simply "blow up everything". Capital ships are necessary to transport people and vehicles across the galaxy to allow for the protection or occupation of strategic planets or military bases, and the movement of troops.

Ignoring the fact the Galaxy Gun existed in Legends, and was an Imperial superweapon that functions virtually like what you said, everything you're suggest would require extreme precision in every instance; you'd need to know at exactly at what point your ship (or projectile) would enter into hyperspace after accelerating so you can line up your actual target in-between the ship/projectile and that entry point, when used on a capital-ship.

Far more plausible and realistic would be relativistic rail-guns. If you could plausibly engineer a rail-gun capable of accelerating a ten-ton projectile to relativistic speed, you'd get the following for different speeds:

10% Light-speed: 4.5e18 Joules

50% Light-speed: 1.4e20 Joules

90% Light-Speed: 1.1e21 Joules

You'd get a powerful kinetic impact without needing to sacrifice a ship, and you could use it as many times as needed as long as you had ammunitions.

Mass-producing weapons that are immediately expended upon use, and would likely be unreliable in battle once people know to expect them to be used, is just wasteful. Any such weapon could be countered and rendered useless by interdiction technology, which also exists in the Star Wars setting.

 

[CSO_Class_Supercarrier]

The Galaxy Gun existed because it was massive for a gun hencew the came galaxy gun.You get the poinyt Star Wars is not plausible and realistic buddy it is not science fiction it is military science fantasy with elements of cyperpunk space weastren and space opera

 

[Catalyst75]

"Military science fantasy".

Yeah, that's not Star Wars. It's never been pro-war, and a number of themes in the Clone Wars episodes were themes of anti-war.

 

[CSO_Class_Supercarrier]

Well they found because of a map that lead direcly to him in toe first place. Cut the weapons shields armor life support enginenring crew space command cters and hangers. Yeah witch the first order lack for some reason even though the empire had it. I moslty agree with you so far. But star wars lacks meta advanced railguns coilgun mass drivers and guass cannons because of mewta advanced turbolasers proton torpedoes concussion missiles and ion cannons are far more powerful faster better at everything in general and much cheaper

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

1- Which is discarding the plotpoint of why the lightsaber was calling out to Rey and Rey inheriting the lightsaber; it established that it is just a tool and unimportant, and the lightsaber even shatters so it presumptive can't be brought back for the third film (Abrams went out of his way to bring it back just like he brought back the mask). And yes, throwing the lightsaber also establishes Luke's character derailment.

2- Actually this is canon; Luke helped make the map fragments for his secret location. C-3PO said that R2-D2 was placed in low-power mode by Luke, and when R2-D2 wakes up it turns out that it is holding the last map fragment.

3- And much better explanations could have been made, but Rian went with character derailment. Luke argues that the Jedi should die out because they are flawed... Ok so why not improve the order and fix its flaws? And even if they are flawed they are useful for stopping psychopathic Dark Side users. The galaxy's problem will get worse if Snoke conquers the galaxy, but Luke can mope like a loser because the Jedi suck.

4- He was dealing with Darth Vader who actually did genocides, and yet he conquered this darkness within himself. But we are dealing with character derailment, hence this sad scenario. Also, Luke was taught by Yoda that the future in Force Visions is always in motion and not absolute, so he had no reason to believe that this will happen, especially with him believing that Darth Vader of all people is redeemable. Also he should've had a conversation like a decently mature person instead of sneaking into Ben's room while he is sleeping.

It is not just about characterization, the writing overall was sloppy. The main plot is about the First Order chasing the resistance/rebels who have limited fuel, and they invented a hyperspace tracker so they are on the small fleet's trail, and they can use a single tracker at a time to track a single ship. This means that the resistance can easily survive by having the fleet's ships split and hyperspace into different directions (they even sent a ship to hyperspace to the casino planet and return). The First Order could've easily caught them as well by having some ships hyperspace in front of the fleet to intercept; Hux wanted to destroy the rebellion as soon as possible, but he decided to slowly chase them for almost twenty hours? You also have the dumb mutinity subplot, and the casino planet subplot was not only useless but especially childish; 'lets make these greedy people hurt by freeing these cute animals and leaving them unattended', even though the only people getting punished are the slave labor who will be forced to clean up.

The ending was also non-sensical. Luke decides 'Fine, if she or other Force Sensitives want Jedi, they can go and redefine a new meaning for the word "Jedi" without input from actual Jedis', and distracts the First Order, which somehow... ends up inspiring the galaxy to rebel and inspire Force Sensitives to pursue their idealized concept of Jedi? (Abrams didn't like the idea of Luke being the Last 'real' Jedi, so he gave Leia Jedi training despite Rian explicitly saying in an interview that Leia received no training)

The resistance/rebellion had a crushing defeat, with only twelve surviving members barely escaping; anything they claim will be seen as a cheap attempt at propaganda. The First Order has no reason to publicize the encounter with Luke, and the impression of the average trooper would be:

"We were about to demolish the very last few survivors of the rebellion while they are hiding like cornered animals, but then a guy wearing robes came out of the big hole we dug in the door. He wa somehow able to survive a laser barrage from the AT-ATs, so the Supreme Leader came down to confront him. They went back and forth for a bit - they were too far for us to hear -, and then they took their laser swords and went at each other. The Supreme Leader got the upper hand and the man in the robes disappeared after the Supreme Leader delivered the finishing blow. I think that weird guy is dead, though some of the guys say that this was experimental hologram technology the rebellion was using. The whole depacle was distacting and a dozen or so rebels slipped by like the rats they are. We'll find them and exterminate them next time!"

How is this supposed to be inspiring? Did Obi-Wan's death also 'inspire' the galaxy? Poe is immensely more inspiring since he is a pilot who helped take down the Star Killer Base.

Sure, if the overpowered hyperspace ramming was properly weaponized, military tactics will evolve and there will still be troop transport and other logistics. However, this tactic is absolutely devastating against the military tactics we've seen like large ships having close formation, and military bases prioritizing fortification instead of being hidden; just imagine how many battles in canon could have been easily won with a lot less causalities if this tactic was used.

There are plenty of navigation computer calculating feats, it should be more than possible to calculate for optimal damage. At minimum it can be done outside the range of capital ship turbolasers (like what was done in TLJ), and it can potentially be done light years away.

We are not talking about a theoritical weapon; for all we know there are technological limitations that prevents the creation of relativistic railguns in Star Wars; we are talking about an overpowered weapon in canon that is not used for an inexplicit reason.

Also, interdiction field technology works by creating a false-positive in hyperdrive safety protocols by simulating a planet's gravity well. However, if the hyperdrive was modified to ignore safety protocols (which would happen with the intent to ram), then interdiction fields won't work.

 

[CSO_Class_Supercarrier]

Excellent points the wrtiing charater stroy arcs devolpment and plot were dumb lackluaster and complety ppointless as well as reconing hyperspace to work a way that it did not do form the very begnning to work as a plot missile. The Last Jedi also portrays women as stupid inferior weak and mentally unstable though the movie. An admiral letting a skirmish on board her ship in war. leasting over 66 percent of her transports get destroyed 75 percent of the starships and likely the vast portion of the resistance get destroyed to. Lea stripping poe of his military rank even enough he saved 4 starships most of the transports most of the crew and everything else when the admiral failed to do so multiple times though the exact same movie . The we need to save the space horse more than the children even though they will get killed toured abused and used to death even if they clean up the mess we made when it is zero fault of thier own. The lightsabre duel as extremely poorly done made designed and though out. Finn wanting to kill himself for his new friends just days after meating them for the very fikrst time is stopped because ******* Rise can teleport and survie a crash that most modren manterial would not be capable of doing ven in perfact conditions. Makes zero sense holy god

 

[Catalyst75]

1- Which is discarding the plotpoint of why the lightsaber was calling out to Rey and Rey inheriting the lightsaber; it established that it is just a tool and unimportant, and the lightsaber even shatters so it presumptive can't be brought back for the third film (Abrams went out of his way to bring it back just like he brought back the mask). And yes, throwing the lightsaber also establishes Luke's character derailment.
2- Actually this is canon; Luke helped make the map fragments for his secret location. C-3PO said that R2-D2 was placed in low-power mode by Luke, and when R2-D2 wakes up it turns out that it is holding the last map fragment.

3- And much better explanations could have been made, but Rian went with character derailment. Luke argues that the Jedi should die out because they are flawed... Ok so why not improve the order and fix its flaws? And even if they are flawed they are useful for stopping psychopathic Dark Side users. The galaxy's problem will get worse if Snoke conquers the galaxy, but Luke can mope like a loser because the Jedi suck.

4- He was dealing with Darth Vader who actually did genocides, and yet he conquered this darkness within himself. But we are dealing with character derailment, hence this sad scenario. Also, Luke was taught by Yoda that the future in Force Visions is always in motion and not absolute, so he had no reason to believe that this will happen, especially with him believing that Darth Vader of all people is redeemable. Also he should've had a conversation like a decently mature person instead of sneaking into Ben's room while he is sleeping.

It is not just about characterization, the writing overall was sloppy. The main plot is about the First Order chasing the resistance/rebels who have limited fuel, and they invented a hyperspace tracker so they are on the small fleet's trail, and they can use a single tracker at a time to track a single ship. This means that the resistance can easily survive by having the fleet's ships split and hyperspace into different directions (they even sent a ship to hyperspace to the casino planet and return). The First Order could've easily caught them as well by having some ships hyperspace in front of the fleet to intercept; Hux wanted to destroy the rebellion as soon as possible, but he decided to slowly chase them for almost twenty hours? You also have the dumb mutinity subplot, and the casino planet subplot was not only useless but especially childish; 'lets make these greedy people hurt by freeing these cute animals and leaving them unattended', even though the only people getting punished are the slave labor who will be forced to clean up.

The ending was also non-sensical. Luke decides 'Fine, if she or other Force Sensitives want Jedi, they can go and redefine a new meaning for the word "Jedi" without input from actual Jedis', and distracts the First Order, which somehow... ends up inspiring the galaxy to rebel and inspire Force Sensitives to pursue their idealized concept of Jedi? (Abrams didn't like the idea of Luke being the Last 'real' Jedi, so he gave Leia Jedi training despite Rian explicitly saying in an interview that Leia received no training)

The resistance/rebellion had a crushing defeat, with only twelve surviving members barely escaping; anything they claim will be seen as a cheap attempt at propaganda. The First Order has no reason to publicize the encounter with Luke, and the impression of the average trooper would be:

"We were about to demolish the very last few survivors of the rebellion while they are hiding like cornered animals, but then a guy wearing robes came out of the big hole we dug in the door. He wa somehow able to survive a laser barrage from the AT-ATs, so the Supreme Leader came down to confront him. They went back and forth for a bit - they were too far for us to hear -, and then they took their laser swords and went at each other. The Supreme Leader got the upper hand and the man in the robes disappeared after the Supreme Leader delivered the finishing blow. I think that weird guy is dead, though some of the guys say that this was experimental hologram technology the rebellion was using. The whole depacle was distacting and a dozen or so rebels slipped by like the rats they are. We'll find them and exterminate them next time!"

How is this supposed to be inspiring? Did Obi-Wan's death also 'inspire' the galaxy? Poe is immensely more inspiring since he is a pilot who helped take down the Star Killer Base.

Sure, if the overpowered hyperspace ramming was properly weaponized, military tactics will evolve and there will still be troop transport and other logistics. However, this tactic is absolutely devastating against the military tactics we've seen like large ships having close formation, and military bases prioritizing fortification instead of being hidden; just imagine how many battles in canon could have been easily won with a lot less causalities if this tactic was used.

There are plenty of navigation computer calculating feats, it should be more than possible to calculate for optimal damage. At minimum it can be done outside the range of capital ship turbolasers (like what was done in TLJ), and it can potentially be done light years away.

We are not talking about a theoritical weapon; for all we know there are technological limitations that prevents the creation of relativistic railguns in Star Wars; we are talking about an overpowered weapon in canon that is not used for an inexplicit reason.

Also, interdiction field technology works by creating a false-positive in hyperdrive safety protocols by simulating a planet's gravity well. However, if the hyperdrive was modified to ignore safety protocols (which would happen with the intent to ram), then interdiction fields won't work.

Luke's character isn't derailed by what happened. Luke was a person who saw a future where everything he loved and worked for being destroyed by Ben Solo, and reacted in a moment of weakness because, in the Star Wars setting, visions have a tendency to come true. After that moment of weakness, he was devastated by what happpened, and rightly held himself responsible. True derailment would have been if he held no regret over what he did.

Everything Luke said about the Jedi in "The Last Jedi" was him acknowledging the same flaws that we saw in the Prequel Trilogy, and Luke's argument was that the galaxy and the Resistance didn't need the Jedi to fight and win all their battles for them. The Prequel Trilogy ended badly for the Jedi because they inserted themselves as warriors into the conflict to begin with. A Jedi can fight; a Jedi can inspire others to act, but they aren't divine saviors.

Each ship in the Resistance fleet making separate hyperspace jumps wouldn't have worked, because it'd likely mean the First Order could track each individual ship to every location they jumped to, and destroy them at those locations. Moreover, the Resistance was trying to get to Crait to broadcast a signal to their allies to begin with, and jumping away would mean abandoning that plan.

Luke's last stand at Crait would have been told throughout the Galaxy by the Resistance, not the First Order, and the people who spread the word of what happened, including Poe Dameron (since you're so fixated on his "greatness from blowing up Starkiller") and Leia Organa.

Luke made the choice to pass the title of Jedi onto Rey at Crait, and we the viewers also saw Rey had taken the ancient Jedi Texts with her, so she could teach herself about the ways of the Jedi from said books, while also keeping the lessons Luke taught her in mind, and later being taught by Leia.

Very much like Luke in the Original Trilogy. At most, Luke only ever spent at least a day with Obi-Wan, maybe two or three days with Master Yoda. Everything else Luke did would have been self-taught. Luke himself is an exception to the Jedi traditions you're evidently complaining about "not being shown to matter in The Last Jedi". Luke wasn't taken from his family as an infant when his Force-Sensitvity was identified; he wasn't raised in a Temple to live solely by the edicts of the Jedi Order.

Everything Luke would have learned outside those few lessons Obi-Wan and Yoda gave him would have been self-taught, or the result of searching for Jedi artifacts, texts, and individuals knowledgable of the Force and the Jedi. He and Rey both are exceptions to the rule when it comes to Jedi, as Rey herself is both a mix of self-taught and being taught by Luke and Leia. The end of the "Last Jedi" wasn't Luke doing anything like what you're fabricating; that was Luke passing on his legacy to the next generation, just as Obi-Wan and Yoda did with Luke.

 

[Catalyst75]

To Resurgence:

Leia demoted Poe because he went against her orders and engaged in a maneuver that cost the Resistance its entire bomber wing and a majority of its fighters for the sake of a "moment of glory". In-universe, no one would have been aware at the time that the First Order could track them through hyperspace.

Holdo knew that Leia had demoted Poe for insubordination, and so had no reason to let him in the know, especially given no one knew at the time how the First Order was tracking them. The mutiny on the ship is not her fault but Poe's, given he continued his insubordination by making decisions behind Holdo's back, jumping to irrational conclusions about Holdo's intentions and further giving her no reason to trust him, which is all well-founded when Poe's secret mission back-fires horribly.

The transports to Crait were dependent on the First Order not tracking smaller ships, and the First Order not being able to detect them due to the cloaking placed on the ships. DJ overhearing it while with Finn and Rose is how the First Order found out, otherwise, Holdo's plan would have worked while she acted as a decoy.

What Finn witnessed on Canto Bight and DJ's subsequent betrayal are what motivated Finn to devote himself fully to the Resistance, albeit he almost winds up making the same fatal mistake Poe did by attempting to sacrifice his life in a way that wasn't guaranteed to work. Everyone knew this, everyone told Finn it was too dangerous, so Rose made the decision to save Finn's life.

I could care less about how you decide to shift all the blame for everything onto the female characters.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

What do you like about TLJ? If you give it the slightest thought, the plot of the movie is internally incoherent, and the choreography isn't particularly good.

No it is Coherent, it just requires people to pay attention to it and not artificially create problems with it, thats not to say it doesnt have problems because it does but the hatejerk that has formed around it is weak sauce.


Do you think the Prequels' worldbuilding wasn't worth something for the Star Wars franchise?

two problems with this. 1 The Prequels are not modern they are clocking 2 decades old and second I never said worldbuilding of the prequels were not worth something, with that being said their worldbuilding is heavily inflated by extended material and people conflating Setting and Locations with worldbuilding.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

also Nah TLJ ws great and retrospectively the only modern star wars film that's worth something.

R1 says hi. Honestly I am compiling a list of the best films of the decade and R1 will definitely take one of the top spots.

Also even Solo was worth something, relative to episode 7 and 9. Though that palpatine lightning feat was one of the coolest cinematic moments in history.

I dont think any of the films are nearly as bad as people are arguing, when I say worth Im more reffering to what the film did for the franchise as a whole.

RO,Solo,TFA,TROS are fairly safe films. TLJ is the only film that tried to say something and instead focused on it's own vision instead of catering the Audience like a fast food joint. this is the way Lucas made his films. which is why despite the fact that i think the prequels are largely the worst in the series from a filmmaking point of view I have alot of respect for them because they were the Vision of one man who wanted to tell a story.

 

[CSO_Class_Supercarrier]

Shaodow not is is not because the rules are broken multiple times. Poe gets demoted for saving the fleet of orbital cannon armored dreadnought while is perfectly fine for admiral to watse 16 plus hour multiple transports 3 starships and hundreds of crew are killed. Cat you do not demoeted someone for saving you ass form the emery when the extact same emergy will open fire thoese auatomatic cannons are the biggest threat not the point defense weapons. It says in the book leia ordered the bombers to attack.

 

[CSO_Class_Supercarrier]

The prequelks did not introduce hyperspace ramming a overpowered attack my by someone who does not understand the lore. Turbolasers are not Esposito arc like that. Hyperspace ramming is redunet because of interdiction and gravity well based technologies so it is already useless. Luke drking of a sea cows breasts is not consistent with his character. Leia force flying in space an enviroment that will kill you very fast. and Surive with zero bad things happening to her.Yeah because the retistiece can boss around galactic goverments when thier are only 20 left.I do not bamle everything on the men the first order are are just are completely stupid. The writing character arcs devolopment and plot in the Last Jedi are so confusion to decode it toke me mutliple months and veiwings to do that. And because it is kids movie even though adult themes are in every single star wars movie to date. Saving hbis life by crashing right \into this ship that in all likley hood would have killed them bothn in mere seconds even though he wanted to commit suicide by ramming in to a valuable peice of first-order technology to destroy it.

 

[CSO_Class_Supercarrier]

Stop posting multiple paragraph essesy that make me have to slow down and scroll form top to bottom condense it in to 1-2 people are not going to understand and read it otherwise.Because most people have better things to do.

 

[CSO_Class_Supercarrier]

the bullshit lines dialogue wrting theatrics and development are major iusses. But they got massive amounts of hate even though the Clone Wars is massively loved care for backed up renforced multiple times by fans regardless of what star wars movies they love. And that is set during the prequel era all of theClone Wars is in fact.

 

[Catalyst75]

Shaodow not is is not because the rules are broken multiple times. Poe gets demoted for saving the fleet of orbital cannon armored dreadnought while is perfectly fine for admiral to watse 16 plus hour multiple transports 3 starships and hundreds of crew are killed. Cat you do not demoeted someone for saving you ass form the emery when the extact same emergy will open fire thoese auatomatic cannons are the biggest threat not the point defense weapons. It says in the book leia ordered the bombers to attack.

No, you demote their ass for defying orders to disengage and costing the lives of the people who followed you in. That's what happened in the film. They were meant to delay until everyone was evacuated from the Resistance base. Leia ordered Poe to pull back after everyone was evacuated. Losing all their bombers through the fault of Poe's decisions is what got him demoted.

Admiral Holdo's plan was for everyone to fly covertly to Crait while the First Order was focused on the Raddus. It was Poe's fault that enough things went wrong for the First Order to figure out the transports were cloaked and heading planet-side, not Holdo's.

I mean, seriously, did you even watch the film?

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

@Catalyst75 Yet, young Luke saw a future where Han and Leia die, and he was still determined to save them and he did. Also, TLJ's Luke was convinced that it is impossible to redeem Kylo Ren up till the end of the movie, even though he redeemed the much worse Darth Vader. A mature Person would have a conversation with Ben instead of creeply sneak into his room while he is sleeping. As I said, character derailment for Luke.

Luke's logic was that the Jedi Order is flawed, therefore it should die off. Also, inspire others to act, "Leave me alone, I want to die" inspires in what way? Due to his character derailment, he does not feel compelled to protect his loved ones or protect the galaxy from a psycho Dark Side user, even though he can simply improve and fix the errors of the traditional Jedi way.

The First Order is only capable of trackikng one ship and they were tracking the Raddus, so if the Resistance scatters with hyperspace then the First Order can't catch them. The First Order's limited ability to track is also exploited to go and return from the casino planet. Also, you didn't bother addressing why Hux who wants the Resistance gone ASAP decided to chase them slowly for 18 hours instead of sending ships to cut them off with hyperdrives. Just admit it; this plot is sloppily written and doesn't make much sense (like the rest of the movie). They can contact their allies and brodcast a signal when they aren't being chased by an extermination fleet.

There is actually a continuity error; Poe is engaging the dreadnought on his own, but he gets commanded to disengage his 'fleet', and then do the eight unarmored and slow bombers appear. But hey, he bought them time since the First Order got busy attacking their empty base (despite supposedly having a life scanner).

There are less than 500 people with many lacking commanding and piloting skills; demoting someone during a crisis without a replacement isn't worth much. Holdo did not explain what is wrong with Poe's plan or explain her plan, she just acted mad and ignored him (yet, later in the movie she states that she likes Poe, lol); she presented herself to her crew as extremely incompetent and reckless if not traiitorous which makes her a terrible leader. When Poe learns about her plan, he actually praises it and supports it, which again makes it Holdo's fault for not trusting her crew and being a terrible judge of character.

@Shadowbokunohero

According to Rian, he did not read or hear any valid criticism for his movie, and if he was back in time he can't think of anything to change in order to improve the movie. So the smugness does not help in not making this the most hated Star Wars movie. So you believe the chase plot, the casino plot, and the mutiny plot is coherent? (saying the characters were being incredibly dumb and/or incompetent is bad writing, not coherent one).

Good luck finding good and exciting extended material based on the Sequel Trilogy. Can you explain what in what ways are the sequels overall better than the prequels in a 'filmmaking point of view'? Plot and story? Worldbuilding? Aesthetics? Choreography?

 

[Catalyst75]

@Shadow He didn't know they were going to die. He saw them being tortured, yes, but he didn't know if they were going to die.

Why the hell are you trying to associate the "inspire others to act" with Luke's character at the beginning of the movie, when his sacrifice that would inspire others to act took place at the end after character development?

The First Order is only capable of trackikng one ship and they were tracking the Raddus, so if the Resistance scatters with hyperspace then the First Order can't catch them. The First Order's limited ability to track is also exploited to go and return from the casino planet. Also, you didn't bother addressing why Hux who wants the Resistance gone ASAP decided to chase them slowly for 18 hours instead of sending ships to cut them off with hyperdrives. Just admit it; this plot is sloppily written and doesn't make much sense (like the rest of the movie). They can contact their allies and brodcast a signal when they aren't being chased by an extermination fleet.

It is never said anywhere only the Raddus was being tracked by the First Order. The First Order was tracking the capital ships, not scanning for small transports, which is stated in the movie, and which is why Finn and Rose left unnoticed. The Resistance was in a virutal lose-lose situation. If they jumped and wasted all their fuel, they would be left vulnerable at the other end. But if they kept flying until they were able to make it to Crait, they could use the base on the planet to send a broadcast to all their potential allies across the galaxy, a capability the Raddus didn't have.

Quit inventing things out of thin air just to "validate" your arguments. It isn't even real criticism at this point if you have to make things up.

There is actually a continuity error; Poe is engaging the dreadnought on his own, but he gets commanded to disengage his 'fleet', and then do the eight unarmored and slow bombers appear. But hey, he bought them time since the First Order got busy attacking their empty base (despite supposedly having a life scanner).

That's not a continuity error. That's Poe ordering the bombers to engage after he took out the last surface cannon after he ignored Leia's orders to disengage after the last transport from the base made it into space and joined the fleet just before the orbital cannons' shots destroyed the base.

As seen in the film.

There are less than 500 people with many lacking commanding and piloting skills; demoting someone during a crisis without a replacement isn't worth much. Holdo did not explain what is wrong with Poe's plan or explain her plan, she just acted mad and ignored him (yet, later in the movie she states that she likes Poe, lol); she presented herself to her crew as extremely incompetent and reckless if not traiitorous which makes her a terrible leader. When Poe learns about her plan, he actually praises it and supports it, which again makes it Holdo's fault for not trusting her crew and being a terrible judge of character.

She's the terrible judge of character. After Poe disobeyed orders and got their entire bomber wing killed for a short-term victory. After Poe went behind her back, shared nothing about his own secret plan which, when it fell apart, jeopardized the entire Resistance.

It was Poe's terrible judgements, and Poe's terrible judgement of character, and Poe's own bruised that was responsible for every Resistance fighter death leading up to the Battle of Crait.

Trust goes both ways. Holdo would have trusted Poe a lot more if Poe allowed himself to trust Holdo. Instead, he kept on doing everything that would only make Holdo not trust him.

Is it that impossible for you to comprehend?

 

[CSO_Class_Supercarrier]

Yes I saw the ******* movie the dreadnought was to blow up the fleet and gets gun were armed he destoryeed the point defence systems and than realized thed ******* dreadnought cannons wre training right on the fleet less than 100 peoplke died ti kill dreadnought of a crew of over 220,000 people it was worth losing the bombers considering half a tie fighter destroyed 3 bomber. Fortm a dreadnought that was going to blow up a fleet a fanboy and strawmen agument we have. Did you see the god dam movie

 

[CSO_Class_Supercarrier]

Not ture not eveu single one you are very much forgeting the none of the small craft were lauhced at all after they jumped out of hyperspace not his fault the fleets and tie fighters launched missiles directly into the hanger bay. Missiles are no human beings they are missiles. And yet holdo lets the fleet lose 3 capital ship one of witch could have destroyed or at the very least damaged a very inportment pecie of first order technology the superlaser siege cannon. In a pretty dess purple hair. and let most the the transports that could have saved lives. over 1,250 crew members died. Yeah, she is a tactical ******* goddess for sure.Less than 50 people died under his command over 25 times that much died under hers she is the vastly inferior miltiary commander by a long shot.