Soul King and Yhwach Revisions

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Please remove it so I can report you to HR.

 

[Tyri456]

here, plus it is stated that fullbrigers abilities come from shards of his body.


Add it back, you removed them without a reason.

 

[AKM sama]

Well, I am neutral here. On one hand I think the statement about the abilities getting ingrained in the soul and returning back makes it reasonable to interpret it as him being able to use those abilities, possibly. But on the other hand, while it's not a direct contradiction, him not even using even a single such ability and nobody acting like he can, makes it a bit suspect.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

“him not even using even a single such ability and nobody acting like he can, makes it a bit suspect.”

He already has the single greatest ability within the series. That’s not suspect at all. He’s also incredibly arrogant because he already knows the outcome and knows virtually nothing can stop him. We have a direct statement stating how his soul sharing works. It’s a fundamental aspect of his existence and what makes him the apex Quincy.

Besides on his profile it’s not even anything he uses in character. There is even a note on his profile.

 

[Gitagon]

Lol. Reading this is funny. I understand why those who want Bleach to be powerful want Yhwach to have these abilities by relying on statements instead of on page feats (the best evidence) but it is what it is.

Yhwach never showed them. Some people would rather call it CIS or PIS or whatever and blame Kubo because Yhwach didn't show these abilities Ben when he needed them like against Ichigo, I'm pretty sure the Miracle would come in handy, so would the Deathdealing which had kicked Ichigo's ass a few chapters prior, same for the Balance which he could have used to counter Ishida's Antithesis the same way Jugram did.

The fact that he didn't use them implies something else entirely.

I'll say in Bleach, abilities are born from one's inner spirit and it is possible to grant people the ability to awaken their power without literally handing it out to them.

That's how it is with the Soul King and Fullbringers. Soul King wouldn't have a motorcycle Fullbring or a video game based Fullbring ability considering video games didn't even exist in his time. His fragments just allow Fullbringers to awaken their abilities.

Now for Yhwach, he takes back the part used to awaken Quincy's abilities in addition to those Quincy's energy, souls, etc so by logic he should indeed have their abilities even if he didn't possess them from the get go. But that is still inferring considering unfortunately he never actually showed them.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Do you want to explain to me why he would want to use anything else when he has Universal+ fate hax?

 

[Damage3245]

Do you want to explain to me why he would want to use anything else when he has Universal+ fate hax?

He wasn't able to use the Almighty prior to the ending of the Ichibe fight.

 

[Torsin]

He wasn't able to use the Almighty prior to the ending of the Ichibe fight.

He only fought Yamamoto and Full bring Bankai Ichigo prior to the Ichibe fight. He finished the fight within seconds by stealing Yamamoto's bankai and Yhwach was waaaayyy out Ichigo's league such that he could tank a getsuga from him point blank without even getting hurt/minor scuffs. His physicals alone were greater than Ichigo. He did not even need to use his abilities then. After awakening the Almighty each and every fight he has had he always relied on it since it is the most powerful hax in the series point blank. And if he did'nt use the almighty he was playing around. Point to add he didn't have the miracle and the schrifts of the elite guard even against Ichibei and the only power that could be remotely useful in that fight would be Gremmy's. Even that would probably be considered useless against Ichibei's conceptual hax and the Almighty was the only thing that could null Ichibei's power and defeat him.

Yhwach never showed them. Some people would rather call it CIS or PIS or whatever and blame Kubo because Yhwach didn't show these abilities Ben when he needed them like against Ichigo, I'm pretty sure the Miracle would come in handy, so would the Deathdealing which had kicked Ichigo's ass a few chapters prior, same for the Balance which he could have used to counter Ishida's Antithesis the same way Jugram did.

Yhwach never showing them isn't proof that he doesn't have them when we have the lore stating that any abilities, talents, power that the sternritter's cultivate during their lifetime would return to him. It's explained in depth and there is no other room for any other interpretation here. Kubo literally breaks down and separates everything mentioning powers, abilities, talents to make it clear that it's not just a general increase in power that he gets when the soul returns to him. Sure if it was just a case where in his lore only power is described we could claim its just an overall increase in his power that Yhwach gains and not the abilities but that is not the case here. The statement is not vague. Second point in the final fight against Ichigo almost half of the fight he was inside ks and his abilities weren't working properly as evident when he tried to break ks and it didn't break. Miracle is not a passive and has to be activated so no it would not be more helpful than the almighty when the almighty could practically achieve better effects offensively than the miracle. The balance would not work since the arrow had already nulled all of his powers and it's greater than any power null ever seen in the series and was specifically made to defeat him.

To add on let me repeat this again him not using the sternritter's abilities was already discussed which is why there is a note at the end of his page saying such and he has a separate key for it:
"Yhwach may have the abilities of Jugram Haschwalth, Pernida Parnkgjas, Askin Nakk Le Vaar, As Nodt, Bazz-B, Cang Du, Quilge Opie, PePe Waccabrada, Gerard Valkyrie, Driscoll Berci, Berenice Gabrielli, Jerome Guizbatt, Mask De Masculine, Gremmy Thoumeaux, Nianzol Weizol, Lille Barro, Royd Lloyd, and Loyd Lloyd; however he has not displayed these abilities in the series. Details of these abilities can be found under the 'With Sternritter's Schrift' key"

Key word being "MAY"

It's considered a possibility that he has these abilities not a certainty which is why even in vs threads we don't give him these abilities unless specifically said so and the sternritter key is used. Unless the op can prove that Yhwach doesn't with 100% certainty have these abilities which is not possible since his lore directly contradicts this, the abilities should stay as is since we already take into consideration he doesn't show them and don't consider these abilities in his regular fights unless stated so which is why we even came to the compromise that it should be a 'possibility' and not 'certain'.

 

[Damage3245]

It's explained in depth and there is no other room for any other interpretation here.

100% disagree with this. You have your interpretation that says Yhwach can activate those abilities on a whim and chooses not to for some reason. I have my interpretation which is that he can't activate those abilities.

I don't think the possibility is even strong enough to warrant it being on his page.

Unless the op can prove that Yhwach doesn't with 100% certainty have these abilities which is not possible since his lore directly contradicts this

How do you prove that somebody doesn't have an ability? Them not using the ability, or thinking about the ability, or anyone else thinking that they have the ability is a pretty good starting point. What more do you need than that?

 

[Torsin]

100% disagree with this. You have your interpretation that says Yhwach can activate those abilities on a whim and chooses not to for some reason. I have my interpretation which is that he can't activate those abilities.

I don't think the possibility is even strong enough to warrant it being on his page.

No the quote is quite literally as clear as it can be. It mentions abilities as well point blank period. You are making more assumptions by claiming that Yhwach has the abilities but cannot use it for some random reason when I'm not making any assumptions in my interpretation. My point stems right from the his lore that he gains abilities. If a character is said to have and receive abilities then its a common assumption that he can use the same abilities unless stated otherwise. Yhwach not using said abilities can quite literally be explained easily since his hax is vastly superior to others or its juts ooc for him to use it.

How do you prove that somebody doesn't have an ability? Them not using the ability, or thinking about the ability, or anyone else thinking that they have the ability is a pretty good starting point. What more do you need than that?

Hachwalth thinks he has the abilities since he is the one who literally states that the abilities return to him in his lore. Who else has Yhwach faced who knows about how Yhwach's powers works? He faces Ichibe who does not even know about the almighty and was surprised when Yhwach returned his powers each and every time. He fights Ichigo who doesn't know how Yhwach's power works and is unaware of the various abilities of the sternnritter and he fought Aizen who was strapped to the chair for the majority of the series and already trapped Yhwach in his ks when the fight started. Uryu is the only one who could be argued to know how his soul distribution works exactly and even then he only directly faces Yhwach in the final fight to shoot the arrow and was quite new to the army meaning he would not even be aware of all the other sternritter's abilities that Yhwach could use. We have a direct statement from his lore stating that he receives these abilities from one of the most credible sources whose power works similar to Yhwach albeit weaker and you want to discard this because characters who are not even entirely aware of yhwach's abilties and all the sternitter's hax didn't mention that it was weird he didn't use other abilities? And even then all these abilities are nigh useless maybe except for the elite sternritter guards whose power Yhwach only receives by the time of the final fight in which he was in ks for half its duration.
So all your point comes down to is him not using said abilities which again was already addressed before and why we gave him the possibility of having his abilities.

 

[Catalyst75]

here, plus it is stated that fullbrigers abilities come from shards of his body.

I've heard it said the shards operate similarly to the Hogyoku - they awaken potential that the person's soul inherently possesses. T

As for possessing abilities similar to Fullbringers, the best way to interpret that would be to look at the Fullbringer who was born with his Saketsu, Aura Michibane, and the way she uses the Fullbring power - high-level matter manipulation.

 

[Catalyst75]

Do you want to explain to me why he would want to use anything else when he has Universal+ fate hax?

The fact that an ability's potency is tied to the level of the user's reiryoku in Bleach. Tokinada Tsunayashiro's Enrakyoten scales the abilities of other Zanpakuto to its wielder i.e. Tokinada's "Ryujin Jakka" and "Kyoka Suigetsu" are both weaker than when used by their original wielders, but stronger if Tokinada is more powerful than the Shinigami whose Zanpakuto he copied.

In other words, "The Almighty" would be so powerful because Yhwach and the Soul King would that powerful. In the theoretical scenario where he could use the abilities of other Sternritter, the various hax abilities many of them possessed ("The Death-Dealing", "The Balance", "The X-Axis", "The Wind", to name the notable ones) would all be at a level matching Yhwach's power.

Any of those abilities would greatly increase Yhwach's range of choices in battle, whether he was using "The Almighty" or not. Instead, we've only ever seen him use the ability to give and take power and various Quincy techniques, "The Almighty", and later on the Soul King's power, in battle.

Even then, his favoured use for "The Almighty" is to target his opponent's weapons or techniques; the times it's been used to injure someone, as I recall, are when he "alters the future" so an attack that missed/blocked in the present still injures his target, and all those traps he "laid" during his fight with Ichigo. The other uses of Yhwach's "The Almighty" include power immunity from understanding abilities, and "altering" his own future, such as when he dies.

 

[Axxtentacle]

But we don’t accept that his AP scales to The Almighty.

We accept that it’s a separate hax, and that his Reiatsu/Reiryoku is separate entirely. If you want to go make a CRT about that and get Universal bleach accepted, go right on ahead. But we don’t accept that.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I've heard it said the shards operate similarly to the Hogyoku - they awaken potential that the person's soul inherently possesses. T

As for possessing abilities similar to Fullbringers, the best way to interpret that would be to look at the Fullbringer who was born with his Saketsu, Aura Michibane, and the way she uses the Fullbring power - high-level matter manipulation.

“I’ve heard” isn’t an argument. You don’t have a single shred of evidence in your OP.

 

[Cyberblader90]

can soul king get the fullbring stuff back

 

[Damage3245]

can soul king get the fullbring stuff back

The quote that supports that is from the 3rd novel, right? I think we could do with the official translation & full context for that before adding it back in.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Why are you removing everything related to the novels and saying to wait for the official translation?

You need to add them back seeing as you don’t have an argument in the 1st place. You literally rushed in to remove it.

Should we also remove Shiniji’s Bankai, Hisagi’s Bankai, and Tokinada’s abilities?

 

[Arcker123]

Tokinada’s abilities?

Sorry but did tokinada use every ability he copied (genuine question).

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Sorry but did tokinada use every ability he copied (genuine question).

Yes. All the ones listed on his profile are the ones he used himself even though he can use virtually any one he likes since the sword has knowledge of pretty much all past Zanpakuto.

 

[Damage3245]

There isn't enough supporting evidence for the Soul King having the Fullbringer's individual abilities.

Here is a quote from the third novel (same source as what was used to add them in the first place):

Why is the fullbringer targeted by the hollow at the foetal stage?
GINJÔ had predicted that the reason had to be because of something that was mixed into the soul from before it was born. Although it was not clear what kind of influence this fragment of the Soul King would have, GINJÔ had assumed that just like Mimihagi-sama had taken possession of a soul reaper, if this fragment were to be fused with human beings, then it would bring about an effect similar to that of the hôgyoku.
A device that manifests the desires of those around it, something that could change the world.
The hôgyoku.
It would not be surprising if the fragment of the Soul King acts as its substitute and activates fullbring that can turn attachment into an ability.

As Catalyst75 said up above, the fragements activate a Fullbring within people but that doesn't mean the individual abilities are a part of those fragments and were all originally used by the Soul King. Each Fullbringer's ability manifest as part of their attachement to specific objects (with the exception of Aura).

So I think it would be best if we did get the third novel fully so we can see if the official translation can help clear this up.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

The very concept of a fullbringer is brought into existence via his shards that they’re born with. It manifests said ability within the human when influenced by the hollow factor. The attachment factor doesn’t matter at all.

It’s stated the SK has innumerable abilities within the series and each piece of him a separate ability every time we’ve seen one.

Without his shard there is no power. There is no fullbringer. Me IMade and Xulrev literally already explained this to you in the original thread.

Edit - Anyone reading this prior thread can clearly see there is some weird backwards logic going on here.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/prime-soul-king-profile-additions.55445/

You’re literally repeating the same wrong arguments you made prior mixed in with some incredulity. If you’re not gonna bring anything new to the table they need to be added back as opposed to stonewalling with details that don’t really matter.

 

[Tyri456]

The quote that supports that is from the 3rd novel, right? I think we could do with the official translation & full context for that before adding it back in.

You have no reasons to remove them, there are neither scan to prove arguments. It is literally stated he has them.

 

[Damage3245]

I'll add the Fullbringer abilities back in for now, and resume the topic once the 3rd novel is released.

 

[Cyberblader90]

if i may, both of these characters are currently labeled as having uni/uni+ hax and that also comes from a line in third novel.

 

[Gitagon]

“I’ve heard” isn’t an argument. You don’t have a single shred of evidence in your OP.

I'm really confused about this. Do you think the Soul King had a videogame ability and a motorcycle ability millions of years before these things were invented? I know he could see the future but that seems pretty ridiculous. All the Fullbring abilities we have seen reflect the users personalities and most importantly their lives considering the whole process of awakening a Fullbring ability.

 

[Gitagon]

Personally I don't think Yhwach had other Quincies abilities and I don't think the Soul King had Fullbring abilities.

Their souls or parts of them act as catalysts to help others awaken their latent abilities. Some abilities we have seen are completely useless, weak or even not from the same time period as these two characters.

In fact I'm more inclined to believe that the soul king shards and parts of Yhwach soul act as the hogyoku or even empty Asauchi; by allowing manifestation of abilities for these 2 races without needing an external item like the Asauchi. Shinigami abilities come from imprinting ones inner spirit onto their sword and I personally believe its the same for the other 2 Bleach races only using different means than Asauchi.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I'm really confused about this. Do you think the Soul King had a videogame ability and a motorcycle ability millions of years before these things were invented? I know he could see the future but that seems pretty ridiculous. All the Fullbring abilities we have seen reflect the users personalities and most importantly their lives considering the whole process of awakening a Fullbring ability.

Can you share the details about the specifics of the world that you can show me how advanced said world was to even make this argument not one of disbelief?

All I’ve argued for is he himself having the base ability. I never once said he’d use it the same way. Yukio’s ability is more than video games lol.

Personally I don't think Yhwach had other Quincies abilities and I don't think the Soul King had Fullbring abilities.

Non argument.

Their souls or parts of them act as catalysts to help others awaken their latent abilities. Some abilities we have seen are completely useless, weak or even not from the same time period as these two characters.

This is literally not an argument and headcanon. What time period were they in? If I follow your logic these people were cave men or something?

Soul Society doesn’t look advanced at all yet they have technology that the real world can’t even fathom. Yet the theme is look like some old Japanese era.

In fact I'm more inclined to believe that the soul king shards and parts of Yhwach soul act as the hogyoku or even empty Asauchi; by allowing manifestation of abilities for these 2 races without needing an external item like the Asauchi.

This literally doesn’t matter. The point is Yhwach takes the abilities back once they died or he takes it themselves. This is his lore. Everything else you stated here doesn’t matter regarding this point.

Shinigami abilities come from imprinting ones inner spirit onto their sword and I personally believe its the same for the other 2 Bleach races only using different means than Asauchi.

What do Shinigami have to do with Quincy and Fullbringer? The only link between Shinigami and the SK is that he’s the progenitor of every race besides hollows.

 

[Damage3245]

This is his lore.

I don't know why you repeat this as if it makes it some kind of objective fact. Your "lore" doesn't actually state anywhere that he can activate the abilities. You're just inferring and assuming that.

 

[Axxtentacle]

I don’t see why the spoonfeeding of that is necessary.

He’s stated to get their abilities back. His hax, which outclasses literally any and all abilities, none of which being completely passive, and Yhwach being extremely confident in The Almighty being enough to do what he wants, would logically be the only one he’d use.

It’s most likely that he doesn’t use their Schrifts for the same reason he doesn’t use Yama’s bankai: He doesn’t need it, or doesn’t believe he needs it.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Because that’s where we get the information from? You’re asking for something ridiculous.

So I don’t know why you repeat “where does it say he can activate them” as if it’s a meaningful and impactful counter argument.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Yhwach's Ability to Bestow and Take Back Schrift - Imgur

Here's how they explain the process in the manga

is it just me or does it look like the baby has a cigarette in his mouth?

 

[Arcker123]

is it just me or does it look like the baby has a cigarette in his mouth?

A very small cigarette.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Most of the abilities that Yhwach apparently gets are gained via him using Auswhalen. He kills most of the Quincy himself by ripping away their lives. I'm not talking about those that are killed by others or anything like that. Hell, we have it listed under Aushwalen on Yhwach pages that's one of the ways he gains powers.

I'm not saying he uses it all the time, what I'm saying is that this is the means we're repeatedly shown in which he would acquire these abilities.

My guy. They. Literaly. Have. A full. *******. Chapter. Of. them.

explaining how when they die he takes the ******* powers, abilities and knowledge they gained

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I'm not sure if I agree with the OP. I need to read through the entire thread before I come to a conclusion. but just because a character never uses an ability on screen doesn't mean they don't have it, most notably if it makes sense from every other point. as they say, Absence of evidence isn't evidence of Absence.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Legit an entire chapter dedicated to this OP and we got people arguing against it. We even see him absorb the soul of James in said chapter taking everything back...Literally showing us how he did it as a child.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm not sure if I agree with the OP. I need to read through the entire thread before I come to a conclusion. but just because a character never uses an ability on screen doesn't mean they don't have it, most notably if it makes sense from every other point. as they say, Absence of evidence isn't evidence of Absence.

Excusing him not using them as "CIS" isn't our only option either if the alternative exists that he just doesn't have them.

If he used even one Schrift, it would be more believable that he can use the rest of them as well but just doesn't.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Argument from disbelief is not an argument. You need to stop that.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Excusing him not using them as "CIS" isn't our only option either if the alternative exists that he just doesn't have them.

If he used even one Schrift, it would be more believable that he can use the rest of them as well but just doesn't.

Guess u will take away yamajis bankai from his profile too right?

Since ur whole argument is just "well I didnt see it so not have it"

 

[Torsin]

Excusing him not using them as "CIS" isn't our only option either if the alternative exists that he just doesn't have them.

If he used even one Schrift, it would be more believable that he can use the rest of them as well but just doesn't.

This alternative you speak of does not exist as the manga quite literally states he has them.

 

[Damage3245]

Guess u will take away yamajis bankai from his profile too right?

No. Don't strawman me, thanks.

This alternative you speak of does not exist as the manga quite literally states he has them.

I believe it does exist. The manga does not state he can use them. The term "abilities" doesn't even necessarily include their Schrifts either. You're just assuming it does. It might be a fair, normal assumption to you. But don't pretend it is not an assumption.