Bleach: God Tier ability Upgrades.

[Bastolan27]

The Dangai does have a demonstrably different flow of time. Did the Reio actually create it? I was given to understand he created the Soul Society and Hueco Mundo within it rather than creating it as well. Although that would require creating a different time flow (Soul Society) within another time flow (Dangai).

The Dangai and the Garganta did not exist in the primordial universe, so Reio created them.

 

[Random-Helper323]

The Dangai and the Garganta did not exist in the primordial universe, so Reio created them.

Okay, so he was able to make seperate space-times with very different flows of time and maintain both of them with his power. Which definitely requires that his power can control both at once. Time shenanigans does seem to be happening here.

 

[Worthless]

Can you elaborate on that point, please? The point about future seeing affecting them? You mean Almighty affecting Ichibei, right? Wouldn't that just mean either that Ichibei doesn't have the ability or that Almighty somehow bypasses Acausality? I think that does exist in fiction, as counter-intuitive as it is.

Saying it bypasses Acausality would be a stretch, especially since the reasoning behind Acausality is not explicitly stated but rooted in assumptions. This is more of an anti-feat than the opposite. The OP's reasoning doesn't strongly support his point, as with half of his arguments, can be easily interpreted differently than he narrated it to be.

I can see how that works. Let me check the OP again, see what the argument actually was. I know time is a large part of why Acausality 4 gets given.

Before engaging in a full conversation about this, provide evidence that his existence exists independently or differently from the current time of the verse first. Otherwise, we would be arguing about a topic that lacks a backing in the first place. But that's false btw.

.Update: Okay, I checked the OP. The arguments for Acausality 4 seemingly is that the Soul King created the concept of progression and stagnation and existed at a time when they operated differently, and that Orihime couldn't do anything to the Soul King.

That doesn't really convey the difference in causality between back then and the present, and I don't see anything indicating that he created the progression and stagnation in the OP, lol. Can you please quote that specific part?

 

[Worthless]

The things you mentioned probably only cover the nerfed SK, also SK is not an isekai main character, you should stop using irrelevant prequels

I wouldn't as long as it proves my point.
And why aren't you also saying that to Gin who keep bringing Devil May cry & other verses to prove his point? Strange don't you think.

 

[Hellscream]

Provide a constructive new argument, or I won't respond. Sorry.

I agree with this statement

 

[Random-Helper323]

Saying it bypasses Acausality would be a stretch, especially since the reasoning behind Acausality is not explicitly stated but rooted in assumptions.

Hmmm... Well, I do think we need to elaborate on the stagnation and progression point, and on Orihime's powers which admittedly have been resisted before. There's also the fact that Tsukishima undid the Almighty's effect by changing the past.

This is more of an anti-feat than the opposite.

I'm actually still unclear on whether Ichibei is being considered to have the same Acausality here, since the OP doesn't list him but people are talking like he would be included.

The OP's reasoning doesn't strongly support his point, as with half of his arguments, can be easily interpreted differently than he narrated it to be.

I do agree that the creating of life and death is a seperate thing, leaving aside the issue of the underworld already existing which implies death also existed in some form already.

Before engaging in a full conversation about this, provide evidence that his existence exists independently or differently from the current time of the verse first. Otherwise, we would be arguing about a topic that lacks a backing in the first place. But that's false btw.

I don't think it is false, since other verses get given Acausality 4 for handling erratic time flows without being affected, although DMC I think has other things pointing to it as well. I'm not sure about plants in Trigun. Still, it's likely that the world of the living already had the same time flow and Reio only created the time flow of the Dangai, the only one that flows differently.

That doesn't really convey the difference in causality between back then and the present, and I don't see anything indicating that he created the progression and stagnation in the OP, lol. Can you please quote that specific part?

The OP talks about stagnation and progression being altered. I'm using a phone right now, so I can't go to a different page or even tab while typing or the dumb thing will refresh and erase everything I've written. I'll check in a moment, but the OP links to a strange location anyway.

Update: Okay, I just read the scan linked in the OP. Ichibei says there that life and death weren't happening and humans and hollows lived together in one world, until hollows started eating humans which would have eventually turned all the souls into one big Menos, which was described as a cause of the world stopping. The stagnation and progression reference in the scan simply seems to be referring to life and death, as stated: "there was no such thing as life or death, and without progress, there was no retreat".
Unless there's more solid proof of cause and effect being different, I'd have to say this isn't enough. What was that about the Reio's arms embodying stagnation and progression?

 

[Worthless]

I don't think it is false, since other verses get given Acausality 4 for handling erratic time flows without being affected, although DMC I think has other things pointing to it as well. I'm not sure about plants in Trigun. Still, it's likely that the world of the living already had the same time flow and Reio only created the time flow of the Dangai, the only one that flows differently.

I mean, with no further context, it's false.
Most 5D beings are essentially above time, but I'm yet to see it used as reasoning for type 4. You could have it, I guess, if you were actually shown not to experience any changes at all because you exist outside of time, like, for example, Regulus from Re:Zero. By existing outside of time, he is unable to experience changes in a literal sense (one of the characters closest to type 5). However, with no further context, it could simply be type 1 Acausality and/or resistance to time, indicating an inability to be affected by time abilities but still capable of experiencing changes and can still be affected by other forms of manipulation, such as causality. But then again, provide evidence for that first, and let's see if that alone can qualify for type 4.

 

[KazuiK]

I disagree with Ichibei getting some sort of acausality. Considering that King shaped the world, concepts and laws, this causality starts to apply to things after him. Yhwach was supposed to obtain it just by absorbing Reio.

 

[Hellscream]

Update: Okay, I just read the scan linked in the OP. Ichibei says there that life and death weren't happening and humans and hollows lived together in one world, until hollows started eating humans which would have eventually turned all the souls into one big Menos, which was described as a cause of the world stopping. The stagnation and progression reference in the scan simply seems to be referring to life and death, as stated: "there was no such thing as life or death, and without progress, there was no retreat".
Unless there's more solid proof of cause and effect being different, I'd have to say this isn't enough. What was that about the Reio's arms embodying stagnation and progression?

Where did you reach this conclusion because that's not what the scan said, it said

"in that age, in all of creation many things were ambiguous. There was no such thing as life or death, and without progress, there was no retreat.
While it swayed to and fro"

nowhere is it stated that stagnation and progression are referring to only life and death, the prior statement is literally "in all of creation many things were ambiguous' which is not only referring to life and death. they're literally talking about the state of being of the verse, before the soul king created the current verse with his power. "while it swayed to and fro" is literally a DIRECT statement of causality being irregular before soul king created the verse.

And the soul kings's left and right hand represent stagnation / evolution as in, his his right hand (Mimihagi) is stillness itself, and his left hand (Pernida) is progression.
Every part of the soul king controls a certain aspect of reality, which he used to create the current verse.

All of this tied with the fact that the soul king is unaffected by Yhwach's precognition, Fate manipulation and orihime's causality manipulation is literally clear cut acausality type 4.

 

[Worthless]

while it swayed to and fro" is literally a DIRECT statement of causality being irregular before soul king created the verse.

This doesn't necessarily imply cause and effect, and it would actually be cool to receive an explanation for why Ichibei, a character supposedly living in that era, is shown to be affected by future sight.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Where did you reach this conclusion because that's not what the scan said, it said

Okay, I'm going to take a look at the statement line by line.

"in that age, in all of creation many things were ambiguous.

Okay.

There was no such thing as life or death, and without progress, there was no retreat.

This statement about progress and retreat is being made in literally the same sentence as the life and death, and the sentence even implies it is referring to the life and death.

While it swayed to and fro

This still sounds vague, and could be referring to life and death.

nowhere is it stated that stagnation and progression are referring to life and death

The reference to it seemingly treats it as being the effect of no life and death. It also doesn't reference causality or elaborate enough on the subject at all, in my opinion.

thr prior statement is literally "in all of creation many things were ambiguous' which is not only referring to life and death. they're literally talking about the state of being of the verse

It does state later that even becoming a hollow is a part of the normal flow of reishi. Still, many things being ambiguous doesn't immediately mean irregular laws of cause and effect.

before the soul king created the current verse with his power. "while it swayed to and fro" is literally a DIRECT statement of causality being irregular before soul king created the verse.

I'm not sure it is referring to causality. And swaying to and fro just sounds like a lack of direction, not necessarily lack of causality.

And the soul kings's left and right hand represent stagnation / evolution as in, his his right hand (Mimihagi) is stillness itself, and his left hand (Pernida) is progression.

Okay, now this is what I asked about, because it looks like the best evidence to me. Where is the information about this? If they are literally concepts of those things, then that's significant.

All of this tied with the fact that the soul king is unaffected by Yhwach's precognition, Fate manipulation and orihime's causality manipulation is literally clear cut acausality type 4.

Those things here could be resistances. Still, the detail about the arms sounds the most promising to me unless there's more information.

 

[Hellscream]

 

[Random-Helper323]

Thanks, I'm impressed you were able to get the scan so quickly. Okay, there are two concerns in my mind. One is that controlling it still might not prove creating or embodying it. The other is whether the scan is using the best translation option for the manga, since altering the word "control" for the word "govern", "embody" or "rule over" could make a world of difference here.

 

[Hellscream]

It's stillness itself, which is why precognition doesn't work on mimihagi, as it represents stillness itself.
Anything that comes into contact with it goes into a "state of stillness".

The soul king is the lich pin of existence in bleach, he's passively maintaining his creation, and if he's killed everything he created will be undone.
This was explained in the manga, and is what happened when he was killed. The verse started falling apart and his creation was being undone. After this, his right hand which controls stillness, stabilized the verse and stagnated it's destruction.

We know he "controls" stillness and advancement with his left and right hand, and we know the verse was in a state of there being no progression or retreat prior to his creation.

And im pretty sure the translation is posted is a VIZ translation.

 

[Loyd]

Presently on the profiles i don't think we treat his left and right hand as literal embodiments in the abstract sense, this upgrade is crazy tho can't wait til staff comment.

 

[Adam1396]

hello guys. I'm new here. Can I participate?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Sure thing buster

 

[Adam1396]

as I don't know how to attach scans, I will only point out what has been discussed. correct me if I'm wrong.

In primordial world space time, casuality had completely different meaning or most likely these didn,t even exist and different reio parts governed different concept. I repeat it didn't say reio, specific body parts were mentioned. Reio transcended that chaotic world.

Then he has shown some acasual feat "after" implementation of new law and order. So statements and feats are heavily consistent for type 2, 4 for reio and relevant characters.

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

as I don't know how to attach scans

check the messaging on your profile

 

[Reio35]

Reio also made kotosu which embodies the concept of reason which controls space-time

 

[Worthless]

After reading the new post about bleach, I'm more inclined to believe that causality and transcendentalism (I can give a full explanation regarding to this if one ask) are exactly what I had in my mind. The phrase "swaying to and fro" and others seem to convey the uncertain and evolving nature of early civilizations, depicting life and soul without a clear trajectory of progress or retreat. Without explicit statements addressing causality, it's difficult to fully agree with this argument, especially since there are shown to be counterarguments against it.

This one is open to various interpretations.

 

[Hellscream]

You're just repeating the same stuff over and over again, that they automatically resist everything because they're a god etc etc.

Man.

Why are you talking about the nature of early civilizations?
The screenshot is literally describing and talking about all of creation.
Not just a civilization.

You don't need a specific statement about causality.
It's literally talking about all of creation, from which we can safely deduce that it's referring to causality itself, as that's the most logical deduction combined with everything else.

Such as his arms controlling evolution and stagnation in the literal sense.
And him having created the verse, it's laws etc.
Having literally created retreat and progression.

All which is further backed up by him being unaffected by causality manipulation, precognition and fate manipulation.
And no him being the "god of the verse so he automatically just resists it" doesn't cut it.

 

[LordGinSama]

Bump

 

[Twisted_Little_Raven]

You're just repeating the same stuff over and over again, that they automatically resist everything because they're a god etc etc.

Man.

Why are you talking about the nature of early civilizations?
The screenshot is literally describing and talking about all of creation.
Not just a civilization.

You don't need a specific statement about causality.
It's literally talking about all of creation, from which we can safely deduce that it's referring to causality itself, as that's the most logical deduction combined with everything else.

Such as his arms controlling evolution and stagnation in the literal sense.
And him having created the verse, it's laws etc.
Having literally created retreat and progression.

All which is further backed up by him being unaffected by causality manipulation, precognition and fate manipulation.
And no him being the "god of the verse so he automatically just resists it" doesn't cut it.

This makes sense, agree

 

[Worthless]

You're just repeating the same stuff over and over again, that they automatically resist everything because they're a god etc etc.

Man.

Why are you talking about the nature of early civilizations?
The screenshot is literally describing and talking about all of creation.
Not just a civilization.

You don't need a specific statement about causality.
It's literally talking about all of creation, from which we can safely deduce that it's referring to causality itself, as that's the most logical deduction combined with everything else.

Such as his arms controlling evolution and stagnation in the literal sense.
And him having created the verse, it's laws etc.
Having literally created retreat and progression.

All which is further backed up by him being unaffected by causality manipulation, precognition and fate manipulation.
And no him being the "god of the verse so he automatically just resists it" doesn't cut it.

Why should I stop repeating the truth? It's open to various interpretations. Interpreting it in a way that benefits you is not how things work. As long as there is no evidence referring to cause and effect being different, this whole thing is nothing more than an assumption. And if you think "God of the verse" doesn't cut it, I really don't want to resort to this kind of argument, but go read some books. Being unaffected by those abilities doesn't necessarily prove your point, it could just mean resistance rather than the way you interpreted it. I might talk like a doofus all the time on almost any BC topic, but I'll tell you, I've encountered many things like this from reading so many novels.

Not to mention, a character supposedly living in that same era has been shown to be affected by future sight. If existing prior to causality or time was created is the reason behind Reio's resistance to those abilities, then I wonder why Ichibei doesn't possess the same traits. As long as this thing exists and lacks explicit evidence.

 

[Twisted_Little_Raven]

Not to mention, a character supposedly living in that same era has been shown to be affected by future sight. If existing prior to causality or time was created is the reason behind Reio's resistance to those abilities, then I wonder why Ichibei doesn't possess the same traits. As long as this thing exists and lacks explicit evidence.

Ichibei is kinda an odd one in general. He's not a transcendent but people seem incapable of sensing his power. People that have no business challenging him do like the random Quincy in flashback and Grimmjow. He also seemingly doesn't need to seal his power. The squad zero have to seal their true power to not threaten/destroy everything with just reiatsu from bankai but Ichibei who is supposedly far beyond them seemingly doesn't need to seal his power and his bankai wasn't sensed by anybody. There are rules that seemingly don't really apply to him. So I wouldn't use him as an anti feat he already seems like he doesn't abide by certain important rules. He is the last person I would use for an anti feat if I'm being honest. People even wanted to say he was weaker than other squad zero members just because his powers didn't work the same way lol

 

[Worthless]

Ichibei is kinda an odd one in general. He's not a transcendent but people seem incapable of sensing his power. People that have no business challenging him do like the random Quincy in flashback and Grimmjow. He also seemingly doesn't need to seal his power. The squad zero have to seal their true power to not threaten/destroy everything with just reiatsu from bankai but Ichibei who is supposedly far beyond them seemingly doesn't need to seal his power and his bankai wasn't sensed by anybody. There are rules that seemingly don't really apply to him. So I wouldn't use him as an anti feat he already seems like he doesn't abide by certain important rules. He is the last person I would use for an anti feat if I'm being honest. People even wanted to say he was weaker than other squad zero members just because his powers didn't work the same way lol

Being weaker shouldn't affect his Acausality, as it's a state of existence rather than power-dependent. No matter how one looks at it, as long as this baldy exists, he will be a barrier preventing the OP from using that reasoning. In any case, I've already stated everything I need to say. Stop mentioning me or else you'll just hear the same stuff over and over.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Okay, I'm seeing stuff about creating the concepts of progression and stagnation, and creating the concept of reason as it currently exists in the Bleach verse's modern day, and the world before having different rules of cause and effect. Can someone provide the scans to show these things, please?

Also, I will raise the issue of the Dangai, which operates on a different flow of time, and yet the Reio's Reiatsu can maintain its existence along with the existence of the other worlds. This means the Reio's Reiatsu can extend through both time flows simultaneously and keep both intact, which suggests that his Reiatsu is unaffected by the strange time flow. That might be something.

 

[Aernasilver]

Jesus.

For the last time just because you have resistance to something doesn’t mean it won’t affect you. It’s called resistance not immunity. (Although fiction can be pretty bullshit with something like using soul manipulation to manipulate a soulless being)

And again with bringing up being a god tier bullshit.

Also I agree that you should stop repeating the same shit.

 

[Worthless]

Jesus.

For the last time just because you have resistance to something doesn’t mean it won’t affect you. It’s called resistance not immunity.

This just means you don't know how Acausality works.. Acausality Type 4 goes beyond mere resistance, it essentially grants immunity, as their resistance stems from existing different from the time and causality that normal characters can manipulate.

Also I agree that you should stop repeating the same shit.

Say something again and I will change my mind about leaving this thread, lol.

 

[Twisted_Little_Raven]

Being weaker shouldn't affect his Acausality, as it's a state of existence rather than power-dependent.

So being born in the same era equalizes their state of existence? So what happens if I make a series, both characters were born at the same time and one has omnipresence. Does the other person not having it debunk it? Cause omnipresence is also a state of being lol

No matter how one looks at it, as long as this baldy exists, he will be a barrier preventing the OP from using that reasoning.

Right I explained to you how Ichibei himself might not even be an anti feat as he doesn't even apply to already important laws lol

In any case, I've already stated everything I need to say. Stop mentioning me or else you'll just hear the same stuff over and over.

Literally first time I ever interacted with you. You could just not reply

 

[Aernasilver]

Unless you change how the power works Type 4 only gives you resistances. So you saying it grants immunity is mute.

 

[Worthless]

So being born in the same era equalizes their state of existence? So what happens if I make a series, both characters were born at the same time and one has omnipresence. Does the other person not having it debunk it? Cause omnipresence is also a state of being lol.

the issue lies in the reasoning, which exists prior to the supposed creation of causality, rather than in the difference of their power level or existence.

Right I explained to you how Ichibei himself might even be an anti feat as he doesn't even apply to already important laws lol.

It doesn't adequately address the future sight argument, and in general, it doesn't really contribute much. Sorry.

Literally first time I ever interacted with you. You could just not reply

I'm not really only talking about you.

Unless you change how the power works Type 4 only gives you resistances. So you saying it grants immunity is mute.

It's common sense. The only reason it's not written as "immunity" is because immunity is reserved for people who actually lack causality and time, being completely independent of those, which is characteristic of Type 5. Lol I've literally seen topic like this so many times.

In short, it's more than just resistance.

 

[Twisted_Little_Raven]

the issue lies in the reasoning, which exists prior to the supposed creation of causality, rather than in the difference of their power level or existence.

Well I'm not gunna pretend like I know these advanced specifics was just stating my opinion. Wrong or not idk

I'm not really only talking about you.

It's common sense. The only reason it's not written as "immunity" is because immunity is reserved for people who actually lack causality and time, being completely independent of those, which is characteristic of Type 5. Lol I've literally seen topic like this so many times.

In short, it's more than just resistance.

Atp we minds we'll call more staff more knowledgeable on this ability

 

[Worthless]

Well I'm not gunna pretend like I know these advanced specifics was just stating my opinion. Wrong or not idk.

Ok

Atp we minds we'll call more staff more knowledgeable on this ability

Sometimes you encounter "Unconventional Resistance To" in a character profile right?
Acausality Type 4 is essentially like that.

Unconventional Resistance means resisting the said attack in a weird, uncommon way. To give you an example, Ard Meteor from Reborn as a Typical Nobody has Unconventional Resistance to Soul by having an infinite number of them. Therefore, every time his soul is destroyed, a new one will replace it, giving him resistance to soul attacks in an uncommon way.

Acausality is like that, they resist (not really resist) causality and time manipulation in a different way by existing outside or different from the time and causality manipulator can manipulate.

 

[Hellscream]

Lol just wait for staff input

 

[KazuiK]

Regarding Ichibei, I reiterate what I said, the change that Reio made applies to Ichibei as well, so acausality is not applicable to him, since considering the change that Reio made in the worlds, manipulating law, causality and concept..., it changed the work after him.

Soon all causality was changed, causing Ichibei and others to have another line of causality different from the previous one, different from the king who sacrificed himself for all this to happen and remained stagnant, similar to the old state of the world in which he lived.

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

Frankly, what Kazui said seems quite logical to me. We still have to wait for the staff to arrive

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

The OP makes sense to me.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

What’re the votes rn