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Bleach: God Tier ability Upgrades.

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I don't know about Ichibei but I think Type 4 for Soul King and Yhwach is ok in my opinion. If life and death weren't a thing (or at least similar in nature to what they are currently) and he hasn't changed, then he'd operate on a different from of cause amd effect, at least in that regard. I also saw a scan posted in the thread about Orihime's ability not working on him despite it being causality manipulation potentially supports him having acausality but that's just my opinion.
 
LordGriffin1000 said:
I don't know about Ichibei but I think Type 4 for Soul King and Yhwach is ok in my opinion. If life and death weren't a thing (or at least similar in nature to what they are currently) and he hasn't changed, then he'd operate on a different from of cause amd effect, at least in that regard. I also saw a scan posted in the thread about Orihime's ability not working on him despite it being causality manipulation potentially supports him having acausality but that's just my opinion.
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It would be cool to explore the opposition argument first, even though it spans 4 pages. But to summarize, there isn't really anything explicitly stating a direct connection to causality, and I don't think existing before life and death is linked to Type 4. The existence of Ichibei essentially debunks the notion that existing prior to the universe grants resistance or immunity against causality or fate manipulation, which the OP uses to justify Type 4, as he has shown to be affected by such abilities.
 
Worthless said:
It would be cool to explore the opposition argument first, even though it spans 4 pages. But to summarize it there isn't really anything explicitly stating a connection to causality, and I don't think existing before life and death is linked to Type 4. The existence of Ichibei essentially debunks the notion that existing prior to the universe grants resistance or immunity against causality or fate manipulation, which the OP uses to justify Type 4, as he has shown to be affected by such abilities.
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I actually read through some of the back and forth between you and the others (not all, I've not a lot of free time). My thoughts are my interpretation of what was presented in the OP (I'm not super knowledgeable on Bleach), but I don't really see how Ichibei counts as a debunk when he'd fall under the Soul King's changes when the current worlds laws were constructed no? Also, existing before life and death means he wouldn't be bound by the standards rules of life and death since it's stated those two things didn't exist, so when applying Orihime's ability not working on him (causality manipulation) and him being stated to transced everything, it leads me to believe he's not bound by the standard cause and effect system like everything else (life and death especially). This again is just my interpretation.
 
Hellscream said:
you have 0 arguments

Eeverything you've said has already been debunked or addressed

Anyways, 3 staff votes and a dozen agrees are more then enough to apply this thread that shouldn't have gone to 4 pages.
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I challenge you to provide the argument that refutes causality, especially focusing on the Ichibei part. The only one here without valid arguments is you. No offense, but you consistently criticize without contributing valid points to the discussion.
 
LordGriffin1000 said:
I actually read through some of the back and forth between you and the others (not all, I've not a lot of free time). My thoughts are my interpretation of what was presented in the OP (I'm not super knowledgeable on Bleach), but I don't really see how Ichibei counts as a debunk when he'd fall under the Soul King's changes when the current worlds laws were constructed no?
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If evidence is presented regarding this argument, I guess I'll concede on using this point.
LordGriffin1000 said:
Also, existing before life and death means he wouldn't be bound by the standards rules of life and death since it's stated those two things didn't exist, so when applying Orihime's ability not working on him (causality manipulation) and him being stated to transced everything, it leads me to believe he's not bound by the standard cause and effect system like everything else (life and death especially). This again is just my interpretation.
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Honestly, this reasoning is new to me. I've come across similar concepts in many novels, where Gods exist before life and death and are often described as transcendental beings but only a few of them manages to get type 4, only because there's a statement that their existence differs from causality. For instance, the God in Tokyo Babel, being described as reverse causality.
 
Arcker123 said:
People have been arguing with you for 5 pages. Your points have been responded to, its just that nobody agrees.
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I personally wouldn't take arguments seriously anymore from someone who thinks this is Type 5 and another person who thinks Acausality is just mere resistance that anybody can counter through sheer layering. Neither of them really understands Type 4. Additionally, all of them are Bleach fans, not that it means their arguments against me are invalid, but that's the main driving force behind why they disagree with me.
 
Worthless said:
It would be cool to explore the opposition argument first, even though it spans 4 pages. But to summarize, there isn't really anything explicitly stating a direct connection to causality, and I don't think existing before life and death is linked to Type 4. The existence of Ichibei essentially debunks the notion that existing prior to the universe grants resistance or immunity against causality or fate manipulation, which the OP uses to justify Type 4, as he has shown to be affected by such abilities.
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Read what I said earlier, this doesn't apply to Ichibei.

It's quite simple;

Reio carries out the process of changing causality in the world and sacrifices himself to maintain it, leaving it stagnant and similar to the state of the old world that he had altered. Everyone else in the world goes through a new process of causality, separating life and death. This includes Ichibei. When you change the world, everything within the world set is affected.

What don't you understand about this?
 
KazuiK said:
Read what I said earlier, this doesn't apply to Ichibei.

It's quite simple;

Reio carries out the process of changing causality in the world and sacrifices himself to maintain it, leaving it stagnant and similar to the state of the old world that he had altered. Everyone else in the world goes through a new process of causality, separating life and death. This includes Ichibei. When you change the world, everything within the world set is affected.

What don't you understand about this?
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If existing prior to the universe is the root of Acausality, Ichibei should be able to resist the aspects you just mentioned regarding to Reio changing causality. I'm not really seeing anything new, you just repeated what the admin said.
 
idk what's even left to discuss atp 🗿
pretty sure Ichibe being an anti-feat has been addressed multiple times before
 
MeidoIzayoi said:
idk what's even left to discuss atp 🗿
pretty sure Ichibe being an anti-feat has been addressed multiple times before
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Nobody has really addressed that part, except for the admin who just arrived earlier and presented a simple yet plausible argument. Can't even defend own shows.
 
Aernasilver said:
Probably because you keep thinking type 4 somehow makes you immune like type 5 for whatever reason when type 4 is just operating under a different causality system. Doesn’t make you immune to every thing causality related.

🤥
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In short, you didn't understand my argument.
 
Worthless said:
Nobody has really addressed that part, except for the admin who just arrived earlier and presented a simple yet plausible argument. Can't even defend own shows.
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Twisted_Little_Raven said:
Ichibei is kinda an odd one in general. He's not a transcendent but people seem incapable of sensing his power. People that have no business challenging him do like the random Quincy in flashback and Grimmjow. He also seemingly doesn't need to seal his power. The squad zero have to seal their true power to not threaten/destroy everything with just reiatsu from bankai but Ichibei who is supposedly far beyond them seemingly doesn't need to seal his power and his bankai wasn't sensed by anybody. There are rules that seemingly don't really apply to him. So I wouldn't use him as an anti feat he already seems like he doesn't abide by certain important rules. He is the last person I would use for an anti feat if I'm being honest. People even wanted to say he was weaker than other squad zero members just because his powers didn't work the same way lol
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KazuiK said:
Regarding Ichibei, I reiterate what I said, the change that Reio made applies to Ichibei as well, so acausality is not applicable to him, since considering the change that Reio made in the worlds, manipulating law, causality and concept..., it changed the work after him.

Soon all causality was changed, causing Ichibei and others to have another line of causality different from the previous one, different from the king who sacrificed himself for all this to happen and remained stagnant, similar to the old state of the world in which he lived.
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Worthless said:
If existing prior to the universe is the root of Acausality, Ichibei should be able to resist the aspects you just mentioned regarding to Reio changing causality. I'm not really seeing anything new, you just repeated what the admin said.
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Hey? Did you really read what I said? Existing before the universe is not the root of acausality, because if the previous universe operates in the same causality this no longer applies.

In any case, there was a change in the causality of that universe (Old world), caused by the Reio, giving rise to a new universe, whose causality is different (current world) with the Reio being the only one that was not affected by this change by stagnating its own existence as a sacrifice to guarantee the balance of that world, is further supported by the fact that even in the ancient world it was already given with something that transcends everything. The reason Ichibei doesn't apply himself is because the world he lived in (the Old World) was the object of change, changing both him and the others who lived in that world, consequently.

Old world causality =/= New world causality
 
Ichibei is kinda an odd one in general. He's not a transcendent but people seem incapable of sensing his power. People that have no business challenging him do like the random Quincy in flashback and Grimmjow. He also seemingly doesn't need to seal his power. The squad zero have to seal their true power to not threaten/destroy everything with just reiatsu from bankai but Ichibei who is supposedly far beyond them seemingly doesn't need to seal his power and his bankai wasn't sensed by anybody. There are rules that seemingly don't really apply to him. So I wouldn't use him as an anti feat he already seems like he doesn't abide by certain important rules. He is the last person I would use for an anti feat if I'm being honest. People even wanted to say he was weaker than other squad zero members just because his powers didn't work the same way lol.
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This doesn't really address anything. As for the second argument you've quoted, I wasn't aware that there was a comment below me on page 4 that I didn't see. No wonder why people keep saying 3-0, but in any case, I still don't agree with anything due to the lack of a statement stating causality. On top of that, Ichibei should be unaffected by the causality aspect that Reio manipulated. But I admit the second argument you've quoted is the only argument among all the doofus arguments that actually makes sense.
 
Worthless said:
This doesn't really address anything. As for the second argument you've quoted, I wasn't aware that there was a comment below me on page 4 that I didn't see. No wonder why people keep saying 3-0, but in any case, I still don't agree with anything due to the lack of a statement stating causality. On top of that, Ichibei should be unaffected by the causality aspect that Reio manipulated. But I admit the second argument you've quoted is the only argument among all the doofus arguments that actually makes sense.
Click to expand...
Why?
 
KazuiK said:
In any case, there was a change in the causality of that universe (Old world), caused by the Reio, giving rise to a new universe, whose causality is different (current world) with the Reio being the only one that was not affected by this change by stagnating its own existence as a sacrifice to guarantee the balance of that world, is further supported by the fact that even in the ancient world it was already given with something that transcends everything. The reason Ichibei doesn't apply himself is because the world he lived in (the Old World) was the object of change, changing both him and the others who lived in that world, consequently.
Click to expand...
If this is indeed true, I might reconsider my opinion. However, I remain unsure due to the lack of an explicit statement regarding causality. Honestly, you are the only person here who is making sense. I'm tired of hearing their nonsense that doesn't really contribute to anything, and I feel compelled to respond, or else it will be viewed as if I have no argument against it.
 
Nothing you've said makes sense, first your argument was whataboutism literally bringing up 4375 different verses to neglect the current argument.

Then you switched over to transcendentalism in order to try and gloss over the fact that he's negated anything that's able to further prove acausality type 4.

And then you tried to argue that they were referring to an early civilization, and it's evolution or whatever nonsense you were waffling about.

Just stop at this point.
 
Hellscream said:
Dude has selective memory and forgot to reply to 95% of the arguments provided
Click to expand...
Aernasilver said:
Here we go with Worthless acting all high and mighty again.
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I'd like for everyone to stop replying to Worthless at the same time and not in this manner above please. You all don't need to respond.
 
Worthless said:
If this is indeed true, I might reconsider my opinion. However, I remain unsure due to the lack of an explicit statement regarding causality. Honestly, you are the only person here who is making sense. I'm tired of hearing their nonsense that doesn't really contribute to anything, and I feel compelled to respond, or else it will be viewed as if I have no argument against it.
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Worthless. No problem

For your point to make sense, Rei-o would have just created a new world and thrown Ichibei there, then Ichibei would be in a new world belonging to a causality of a previous world, thus being acausality, which is not the case. Since the King-o not only created but changed the laws, concepts and causality of all cosmology to fit his creation.
 
Hellscream said:
Nothing you've said makes sense, first your argument was whataboutism literally bringing up 4375 different verses to neglect the current argument.

Then you switched over to transcendentalism in order to try and gloss over the fact that he's negated anything that's able to further prove acausality type 4.

And then you tried to argue that they were referring to an early civilization, and it's evolution or whatever nonsense you were waffling about.

Just stop at this point.
Click to expand...
With all due respect to you all, I don't really expect you all to fully understand my argument unless you've experienced the same things I did back then. I understand that this perspective might seem out of place since these instances are rare for you, but not for me. And one of the first things I did right after joining here is literally participate in an Acausality post because a random person outside of this site debunked my belief that GER is all-powerful.
 
KazuiK said:
Worthless. No problem

For your point to make sense, Rei-o would have just created a new world and thrown Ichibei there, then Ichibei would be in a new world belonging to a causality of a previous world, thus being acausality, which is not the case. Since the King-o not only created but changed the laws, concepts and causality of all cosmology to fit his creation.
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Then the argument proposes that his existence in the already non-existent (old) world should be replaced with being unaffected by the changes in all fundamentals within the verse. I'm not entirely sure about causality, but I believe the law is sufficient to grant Acausality type 4. I wasn't aware that the admin argument originated from you.
 
The life and death stuff is very open to interpretation, but maybe we should remember first that we know for a fact that the Reio possessed something that resisted fate hax and we also know for a fact that Ichibei did not possess that. Namely the fact that the Almighty works on Ichibei but not Reio. So Reio definitely has something that no one else has. I couldn't help but notice that Ichibei having the same acausality was referenced in the thread but wasn't in the OP.

Also, we know for a fact that souls are made of reishi, and that reishi gets recycled rather than destroyed, for the most part. So it's reasonable to say that souls and reishi that existed before Reio created the current order were altered along with the world, or else souls wouldn't have been rerouted to the Soul Society the way they were. That would probably cover Ichibei as well.

TL;DR: It's probably reasonable to think all other souls besides Reio himself were altered to match the new system he created, and he was the only one the Almighty couldn't work on.
 
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Worthless said:
I personally wouldn't take arguments seriously anymore from someone who thinks this is Type 5 and another person who thinks Acausality is just mere resistance that anybody can counter through sheer layering.
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I'm a fairly neutral presence here, and I have to say, it isn't about overcoming it through layering. What it means is that it can somehow work on acausal beings anyway. In the case of Reio, one possible way to look at it is this: let's say Reio still operates on the old system of cause and effect while being outside the new system. Now let's say the Almighty completely rules the new system, and yet can't do anything to Reio because he operates under the old system. Now let's say the Almighty is upgraded and now rules the old system as well, and thus can now effect Reio as well. Given that a different system is basically what acausality type 4 is all about, it seems pretty accurate.
 
LordGinSama said:
The Soul King and Yhwach should both get Type 4 Acausality due to working on a different system of causality than the rest of the modern-day verse.

For starters, The Soul King was born before creation of the 3 realms where the entire state of the cosmology was ambiguous and very different than the current state of the universe. Everything back in the time of the Soul King was completely different than what it is today, with concepts such as life and death not being created yet and stagnation and progression flickered and and forth, with it also being directly stated that The Soul King transcended everything.

This is furthered by the fact that Orihime who manipulates causality was unable to effect even a weakened Soul King. Refer back to the statement of the Soul King being stated to have transcended everything, along with the universe he's from being fundamentally different than the modern day universe.

There's even evidence in this with the likes of Mimihagi who has very similar characteristics to someone with Type 4 Acausality, being that he's resistant to abilities such as Precognition.
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The Soul King "transcending everything", Mimihagi being invisible to the eyes of the Y'all mighty, and Orihime's "Rejection" being unable to affect the Soul King can point to either a resistance to causality warping abilities or operating on a different system of causality.

But I don't think the Soul King's antecedence of the "structured" Bleach universe is enough proof of operating on a different system of causality, it's possible for the world prior to the creation of the three realms to operate on the same system of causality as after its creation (unless there's something which says otherwise), and the beings who created those realms follow that causality in that there is a "before" the three realms and "after" the three realms.
 
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