Maou Gakuin Resistance Discussion [STAFF ONLY]

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Recently, Anos' profile was edited to give him back resistance to type 1 conceptual manipulation and law manipulation, after it was previously removed in this thread (and subsequently agreed to have been a valid removal in the RVR). While I could go on about how this is bordering on abuse of power, I will at least make an effort to amend the change normally.

In short, "Order" in Maou Gakuin acts as the laws and concepts that govern all things, such as the order of time. Gods naturally possess the ability to manipulate order as they please, giving them law manipulation and concept manipulation. Anos has resistance to these abilities, as he can resist techniques that are based on order, such as Nosgalia's power modification/nullification, or Ivis' time stop. The issue is, he is not resisting order itself, but rather, an extension of the use of that ability. To give an out-of-verse example, there are many verses where one's soul, information, or so on acts as the source behind their techniques. Yet, this does not give those who resist such techniques the ability to resist their source. The same would be true of order, where Anos would be resisting power modification and time stop, not the manner in which those abilities were used.

In short, order manipulates laws and concepts to create effects. It is my opinion that resisting those effects is merely that, and does not extend beyond any specific application of order.

Also, staff only. MGK supporters still need to ask other staff for permission to comment here.

Agree: @Deagonx, @Theglassman12, @Agnaa, @Ultima_Reality, @Maverick_Zero_X

Disagree: @Dereck03, @DarkDragonMedeus

Neutral: @Mr._Bambu

 

[Antvasima]

@Mr._Bambu @Dereck03

What do you think about this?

 

[Deagonx]

I recall myself and @Theglassman12 were in favor of removal, and a neutral from @Qawsedf234 and @DarkGrath and @Elizhaa

For those of you who were neutral, would you be willing to re examine this issue specifically so we can reach a firmer consensus?

 

[Dereck03]

As I have already said an infinity of times, Nosgalia's order is clearly the power of order in words, his words are the order itself and exert the power of order itself, I don't have to keep explaining this..... Besides I recently managed to make the verses in which the Web Novel and the Light Novel share the same storyline without deviate from the main story can share versions, so I can easily use the scan where Anos directly resists the power of the order of destruction and will end with all this nonsense, but I will see how this matter develop first.

@Mr._Bambu @Dereck03

What do you think about this?

You can ask medeus as well since i explained everything to him as well.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

As I have already said an infinity of times, Nosgalia's order is clearly the power of order in words, his words are the order itself and exert the power of order itself, I don't have to keep explaining this..... Besides I recently managed to make the verses in which the Web Novel and the Light Novel share the same storyline without deviate from the main story can share versions, so I can easily use the scan where Anos directly resists the power of the order of destruction and will end with all this nonsense, but I will see this matter first.

Yes, she has the power of order. As all gods do. However, that does not mean every single ability she uses is law/concept hax by default. A time stop created by magic or information or concepts or laws is still, at its core, a time stop. Which means you can still resist it by resisting time stop.

Also, please do not bring up the Web Novel or content that will appear in the future. Keep things focused on the content we actually have available at the moment.

 

[Dereck03]

Yes, she has the power of order. As all gods do. However, that does not mean every single ability she uses is law/concept hax by default. A time stop created by magic or information or concepts or laws is still, at its core, a time stop. Which means you can still resist it by resisting time stop.

Nosgalia clearly states that in his words to obey the order and that his words are the order, here we do not have to guess what he is referring to.

Also, please do not bring up the Web Novel or content that will appear in the future. Keep things focused on the content we actually have available at the moment.

Huh, I already created the policy and I can use it if I want, I can use the Web Novel, I can use LN raws scans + TL from Jp people, I can use Fan TL as the rules say so.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Nosgalia clearly states that in his words to obey the order and that his words are the order, here we do not have to guess what he is referring to.

He uses order. I get that. However, the manner in which he uses order takes the form of power modification, which is what Anos resists in that scan.

Say I use subjective reality to will a fireball into reality, and fire it at someone who subsequently resists it. Does that person resist subjective reality?

Huh, I already created the policy and I can use it if I want, I can use the Web Novel, I can use LN raws scans + TL from Jp people, I can use Fan TL as the rules say so.

When was this? There was only one thread I recall being made in regard to translations, and that was never passed. In any case, the current profile is for the Light Novel, so we use the Light Novel and ONLY the Light Novel. If the evidence you need is in the WN, or hasn't been translated yet? Tough shit.

 

[Antvasima]

As I have already said an infinity of times, Nosgalia's order is clearly the power of order in words, his words are the order itself and exert the power of order itself, I don't have to keep explaining this..... Besides I recently managed to make the verses in which the Web Novel and the Light Novel share the same storyline without deviate from the main story can share versions, so I can easily use the scan where Anos directly resists the power of the order of destruction and will end with all this nonsense, but I will see how this matter develop first.

You can ask medeus as well since i explained everything to him as well.

@DarkDragonMedeus

Your input would be appreciated here.

 

[Dereck03]

He uses order. I get that. However, the manner in which he uses order takes the form of power modification, which is what Anos resists in that scan.

He still using order though.... And who said a scan can't be used to gain more than one ability or resistance?. He resisted the power of order and resisted the power of modification from said order and in this occasion it is not something derived from a power as you say with the time stop, here clearly the power of order is present and being exercised in words.

When was this? There was only one thread I recall being made in regard to translations, and that was never passed. In any case, the current profile is for the Light Novel, so we use the Light Novel and ONLY the Light Novel. If the evidence you need is in the WN, or hasn't been translated yet? Tough shit.

Bye. Tho i haven't use the WN yet so.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bye. Tho i haven't use the WN yet so.

It says it will be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. Was MGK evaluated and deemed valid?

He still using order though.... And who said a scan can't be used to gain more than one ability or resistance?. He resisted the power of order and resisted the power of modification from said order and in this occasion it is not something derived from a power as you say with the time stop, here clearly the power of order is present and being exercised in words.

Where does it say he resisted order itself and not just an effect created by order? I also said nothing about scans not being allowed to give more than one ability or resistance.

 

[Antvasima]

@Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale

What do you think about this?

 

[Dereck03]

It says it will be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. Was MGK evaluated and deemed valid?

Want to try now? Maou is one of these verses where the Wn and the LN keep the same storyline, characterization, events and feats, just look at the old profile of the Wn and compare it with the current one of the LN.

Where does it say he resisted order itself and not just an effect created by order?

Huh, what counterargument is this? Simply obviating the use of the order itself in the attacks and arguing only mere after effects, anos said that he does not follow the order nor was he affected by the power itself and now you say they are only because of the effects of the order?

I also said nothing about scans not being allowed to give more than one ability or resistance.

The way you make it seem clear that there is only one ability and the rest is just interpretation.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Want to try now? Maou is one of these verses where the Wn and the LN keep the same storyline, characterization, events and feats, just look at the old profile of the Wn and compare it with the current one of the LN.

What.

You can't just make a new site standard and force someone else to apply it for you. Compile the evidence and make a thread, but until then, all we have is your word.

Huh, what counterargument is this? Simply obviating the use of the order itself in the attacks and arguing only mere after effects, anos said that he does not follow the order nor was he affected by the power itself and now you say they are only because of the effects of the order?

He said his attacks don't follow orders, which is in reference to Nosgalia not being able to control his attacks. It isn't him saying "my attacks literally resist the basis of Order itself".

The way you make it seem clear that there is only one ability and the rest is just interpretation.

No? I'm saying that there's only 1 ability you can gather from that scan and everything else is extrapolation. It varies depending on the scans.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

As I have already said an infinity of times, Nosgalia's order is clearly the power of order in words, his words are the order itself and exert the power of order itself, I don't have to keep explaining this..... Besides I recently managed to make the verses in which the Web Novel and the Light Novel share the same storyline without deviate from the main story can share versions, so I can easily use the scan where Anos directly resists the power of the order of destruction and will end with all this nonsense, but I will see how this matter develop first.

You can ask medeus as well since i explained everything to him as well.

This makes sense to me yes.

 

[Dereck03]

What.

You can't just make a new site standard and force someone else to apply it for you. Compile the evidence and make a thread, but until then, all we have is your word.

Huh, then it would be worse to put this thread on hiatus until I make the thread that shows that the storyline is the same as well as the characterization of the characters, events and feats. And it's not just my words, 90% of the LN profile is a copy and paste of the old WN one only using the LN translation which is already an indication that there are no changes the remaining 10% are the abilities that are not in the current LN translated volumes.

But this option depends if i want to use the Wn rn which i'm not yet.

He said his attacks don't follow orders, which is in reference to Nosgalia not being able to control his attacks. It isn't him saying "my attacks literally resist the basis of Order itself".

Anos' attacks are on the basis of his own power, if they do not follow the order power of the order which is absolute then it counts as resistance, furthermore you are nitpicking that the power of Nosgalia's words is only a secondary power apart from the order and are not the order itself which clearly is. Heck even Anos clearly said that he himself doesn't take orders from anyone not even gods, Nosgalia saying that his words are order and exercise the power itself, Nosgalia saying the the words of gods is absolute and Anos resisting it.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Reiner asked me for permission to speak and I am fine with it.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I've said previously: I do not think two staff members were sufficient to remove it before, that was the only fault I could find with Deagon's approach to that thread.

As for the feats themselves, I recall being neutral after investigating the matter. It's a tenuous issue and I didn't feel like, with the information provided to me at the time, I could certainly lean one way or the other.

 

[Deagonx]

For my part, I am firmly of the opinion that Resistance to Concept Manip is a bridge too far simply for resisting a spell or ability cast by a conceptual being. It suggests -- with no persuasive evidence -- that their abilities are completely unstoppable by anyone who doesn't have that resistance.

In reality, although these beings are powerful, they are just casting fairly strong spells that Anos is resisting by virtue of being more powerful.

 

[Dereck03]

In reality, although these beings are powerful, they are just casting fairly strong spells that Anos is resisting by virtue of being more powerful.

If this were the case, then all MCs in all series who are so powerful and show total superiority against their enemies and resisting their abilities should be removed and replaced with "Much powerful than everyone else".

 

[Reiner04]

Anos has resistance to these abilities, as he can resist techniques that are based on order,

That's not what the scan says tho. The scan says that the guy forces the order upon others to obey and that his words are order as dereck pointed out already, what are the consequences of forcing order on someone is after math and doesn't really matter since he will be resisting the cause and the consequences together as he is doing by not obeying order.

However, that does not mean every single ability she uses is law/concept hax by default. A time stop created by magic or information or concepts or laws is still, at its core, a time stop

No? That's not just time stop, time stop is merely a consequences of altering or forcing or using a concept related to time, If you're unaffected by what's stated "Concept" then that's that. That is the context. If the concept of circle has been altered and one's eyes and other stuff has no effect and still circle than he resist concept, if the concept of spacetime specifically stated to be destroyed and the guy resisted it just fine then the context is that he resist conceptual spacetime not just Spacetime. Nothing one states w/o reason we go with context and what's provided. For example if a A resist reality warping and the B used his reality warping to wish the A out of existence then A will still be fine even if he don't resist EE, as he resist it's core and source RW. And this is the same case where Order is more emphasized than the consequences it creates. So we know the context.

What.

You can't just make a new site standard and force someone else to apply it for you. Compile the evidence and make a thread, but until then, all we have is your word.

WN and LN can be used as long as
same and there is no major contradiction as per our rules, so that's that.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

If this were the case, then all MCs in all series who are so powerful and show total superiority against their enemies and resisting their abilities should be removed and replaced with "Much powerful than everyone else".

I agree!

 

[Dereck03]

I agree!

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I do feel like we're already going in circles here, because this debate is over one scan. I've made my case, which is that resisting abilities based on a conceptual ability does not grant resistance to law hax. People here disagree.

 

[Dereck03]

The only thing here is that the ability shown is not a ability based on a conceptual ability but the power of the order itself, Nosgalia has his ways of using his order and he uses it through his words. You are just ignoring what has been shown.

Not arguing this anymore.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I have literally never once argued that he didn't use order in that scan. I know he did, I'm just saying that the way in which he did so was by creating an effect based on order, which was then resisted.

Like, imagine if I argued that every Touhou character resists concept hax because they can tank attacks that were created via concept manipulation.

 

[Agnaa]

Could more relevant scans be posted? Because so far only one scan has.

In general, when giving resistances, we lowball it unless we're given specifics on the end of the resister that lets us know that it was resisted on a broader level. This lowball is "resisting that effect when applied by that cause".

Resisting mind manipulation applied through electrical signals hijacking the brain, would give the profile "Resistance to Mind Manipulation", which only works on mind manip applied through electrical signals. They wouldn't resist their body being shocked electrically, or their mind being manipulated with psionic powers.

This can be broadened to either resisting the effect or the cause as a whole, if additional context on how it was resisted is given.

So far, it sounds like there's barely any reasoning to believe the resistance spreads to the cause as the whole (the arguments affirming the resistance simply focus on how explicitly the cause causes the effect, which is immaterial), so I agree with those resistances being removed.

 

[Dereck03]

Okay, I'm kinda loss in all the flowery language you've written, I'll focus on just what you said about if there's more scans.
And yes

Anos' attacks are on the basis of his own power, if they do not follow the order power of the order which is absolute then it counts as resistance, furthermore you are nitpicking that the power of Nosgalia's words is only a secondary power apart from the order and are not the order itself which clearly is. Heck even Anos clearly said that he himself doesn't take orders from anyone not even gods, Nosgalia saying that his words are order and exercise the power itself, Nosgalia saying the the words of gods is absolute and Anos resisting it.

Although it doesn't seems to be enough the proof that it is clearly the order that is being used and people claim Anos resisting its effects =/= resisting the power of the order.

The little to nothing order content in the actual translated volumes is a factor indeed.

So it only remains for me to create the thread to merge the Web Novel with the Light Novel and use the previously accepted scans of resisting the order of destruction to end this drama, brb.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Okay, I'm kinda loss in all the flowery language you've written, I'll focus on just what you said about if there's more scans.
And yes

Although it doesn't seems to be enough the proof that it is clearly the order that is being used and people claim Anos resisting its effects =/= resisting the power of the order.

The little to nothing order content in the actual translated volumes is a factor indeed.

So it only remains for me to create the thread to merge the Web Novel with the Light Novel and use the previously accepted scans of resisting the order of destruction to end this drama, brb.

What volume is the order of destruction stuff from?

Anyways, the other scan you've posted is just... Anos saying he doesn't take orders. That doesn't mean he's automatically referring to a universal system of laws that shares that name. Another example is how Touhou characters will occasionally say things like "that's the spirit" or "you've got a fighting spirit", which are normal phrases and not, in fact, referring to the energy source of the same name.

 

[Agnaa]

Okay, I'm kinda loss in all the flowery language you've written, I'll focus on just what you said about if there's more scans.

Uhh, to try again then.

Unexplained resistance = you resist the effect, when caused by that cause. Indexed as "Resistance to (effect)"

Scans saying "The cause is a really important part of the ability" are irrelevant.

To get resistance to a cause, you need good context.

 

[Dereck03]

What volume is the order of destruction stuff from?

Next one, Part 2 of V4 which comes out in July

Anyways, the other scan you've posted is just... Anos saying he doesn't take orders. That doesn't mean he's automatically referring to a universal system of laws that shares that name. Another example is how Touhou characters will occasionally say things like "that's the spirit" or "you've got a fighting spirit", which are normal phrases and not, in fact, referring to the energy source of the same name.

Actually nosgalia is telling him to stop using his divine order and anos doesn't obey the orders, meaning he's not being affected by the power of his words and you can see he isn't affected.

 

[Dereck03]

Uhh, to try again then.

Unexplained resistance = you resist the effect, when caused by that cause. Indexed as "Resistance to (effect)"

Scans saying "The cause is a really important part of the ability" are irrelevant.

To get resistance to a cause, you need good context.

So the character exercises power (order) through words as absolute orders that are order and exercise order as the power of order. Resist these words which is an absolute order = nothing? Ic

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Next one, Part 2 of V4 which comes out in July

Cool. That means we can't use it.

Actually nosgalia is telling him to stop using his divine order and anos doesn't obey the orders, meaning he's not being affected by the power of his words and you can see he isn't affected.

Ah yes

Anos' super special OP cheat technique:

Not listening to people

 

[Agnaa]

So the character exercises power (order) through words as absolute orders that are order and exercise order as the power of order. Resist these words which is an absolute order = nothing? Ic

Yeah.

Resisting mind manip caused by electricity only gives you resistance to mind manip. Unless the character clearly resisted it because of a resistance to electricity.

It doesn't matter how many times the series says "this is done through electricity".

 

[Dereck03]

Cool. That means we can't use it.

Yes, we can. Either i make the thread about merging the novels versions or wait some weeks it's only a Tik Tak, but i'm not planning to wait so.

Ah yes

Anos' super special OP cheat technique:

Not listening to people

Is that even an argument? No.

Yeah.

Resisting mind manip caused by electricity only gives you resistance to mind manip. Unless the character clearly resisted it because of a resistance to electricity.

What kind of examples are these? Here we are talking about even conceptual entities being dominated by the power of the order of nosgalia, but anos is able to resist these effects and is unnafected by them. So what is this?

 

[Agnaa]

What kind of examples are these? Here we are talking about even conceptual entities being dominated by the power of the order of nosgalia, but anos is able to resist these effects and is unnafected by them. So what is this?

Why exactly do you think that my example isn't comparable to this case?

 

[Dereck03]

Why exactly do you think that my example isn't comparable to this case?

Because you clearly obviate the fact that it's the order itself (Laws and Concepts) and not an ability derived from the order is being used by words as an absolute order and it is stressed many times by Nosgalia himself that, obey the order, that his words are the order and that his orders are absolute, while others cannot resist those orders, Anos can, why is that? Because Anos does have an actual resistance which the others don't have.

It's like saying that even if you resist the order of destruction, which is the order itself, which is capable of destroying everything, including the other orders along with Fate and everything related to it, you still won't gain resistance to it which is nonsense.

 

[Agnaa]

Because you clearly obviate the fact that it's the order itself (Laws and Concepts) and not an ability derived from the order is being used by words as an absolute order and it is stressed many times by Nosgalia himself that, obey the order, that his words are the order and that his orders are absolute, while others cannot resist those orders, Anos can, why is that? Because Anos does have an actual resistance which the others don't have.

It's like saying that even if you resist the order of destruction, which is the order itself, which is capable of destroying everything, including the other orders along with Fate and everything related to it, you still won't gain resistance to it which is nonsense.

And the mind manip, in my example, is caused by electricity itself, not an ability derived from electricity. It's stressed multiple times that the mind control is from the electricity, and that those effected have to do as the electricity-wielder desires. While others cannot resist that electricity, two characters can.

Yet despite all this, those two only get resistance to mind manip.

I really don't see the difference.

 

[Reiner04]

Resisting mind manip caused by electricity only gives you resistance to mind manip. Unless the character clearly resisted it because of a resistance to electricity.

That's really a issue with how exactly the hax is being implemented, if electricity itself is imposed the control on victims mind and exercising the govern, then victim will get Resistance towards both if not like electricity is just a source of kind of mind controlling machine than that's obvious victim will not gain resistance towards electricity, but then electricity itself has no role into play here to be specifically mentioned or it's not either being imposed on victim directly and mind manp is just one of effects it cause.

But here, order seems to be the one which is being imposed rather than just ability.

If we ignore the sources like concept altering, reality altering being imposed directly on victim to cause specific effect and just focus on the effects that it maybe causing then there will be void of may resistances related to concept or EE or RW as all of them just wishes things. From kratos profile:

Resistance to Reality Warping (Can resist the illusions of the Furies,[14] which is stated to warp the victim's senses[14] and even distort the area around them,[14] with proper focus on his mind[14] or with the Eyes of Truth[14])

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

If we ignore the sources like concept altering, reality altering being imposed directly on victim to cause specific effect and just focus on the effects that it maybe causing then there will be void of may resistances related to concept or EE or RW as all of them just wishes things. From kratos profile:

Resistance to Reality Warping (Can resist the illusions of the Furies,[14] which is stated to warp the victim's senses[14] and even distort the area around them,[14] with proper focus on his mind[14] or with the Eyes of Truth[14])

Ignoring the validity of this comparison, let's cut it out with the whataboutism.

 

[Reiner04]

Ignoring the validity of this comparison, let's cut it out with the whataboutism.

The given example case is to address the view point if read carefully rather than implimenting it as evidence. If I'd to deny everything and just go with whataboutism then I would have not wrote an essay.