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Sonic the Hedgehog: Super Forms Speed Upgrade

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All right I'm gonna ask something completely stupid most likely but it's not like much else is happening here anyways. So you can see that white distortion thingy where Blaze and Sonic come from (under their feet) and you also see the clouds being all weird before that cutscene. So what is that white thing exactly?
 
Didn't Cal already reject this?
 
The real cal howard said:
This will be my last post on the matter until further notice. Like I said, it's going in circles, so it's best to leave this to others to evaluate the argument. Get a jury on it.
Click to expand...
He literaly said to get others
 
Yes, but that was just because he was tired. He still decisively rejected the suggestion.

You can ask other staff if you wish though.
 
What do we need to do here?
 
More staff need to come and input aside from Cal and Dark, as the former said that was the best course of action anyways. I've tried to contact some staff, so it's just waiting at this point.
 
You probably need to ask more staff members for help.
 
It might help if you post an easy to understand summary of the discussion so far, and then ask some staff members to help out here.
 
To summarize...

Super Sonic and Burning Blaze travel interstellar distances to fight Eggman and Eggman Nega before the two universes fully merge and the Eggmen create Eggmanland "beyond this dimension" (which means universe in this context). Here is the calculatio.

For Speed Upgrade

  • As Super Sonic and Burning Blaze approach their fight with the Eggmen, there are no celestial bodies visible in the darkness as they approach The Exception. If there are no celestial bodies, this implies they've left their universe to approach The Exception.
    • Counter: This is just a shared transitional screen across the game. (Addressed below)
  • The Eggmen state they'll create Eggmanland "beyond this dimension", hinting at their fight taking place outside of the universe when lined up with the previous point.
    • Counter: The Eggmen state they'll do this after they defeat Sonic and Blaze (Addressed below)
  • Super Sonic and Burning Blaze are flung back into opposite directions after the fight concludes, showing that they weren't anywhere in a position where one was in their home universe.
Against Speed Upgrade

  • They could've used a form of teleportation to take a shortcut to The Exception.
    • Counter: This goes against Occam's Razor, and all we see is them flying rather than using Chaos Control or the likes.
  • A "rift" by definition has to be inside of something. Therefore, The Exception is somewhere within the universe
    • Counter: We use the term "rift" for simplicity's sake, but never within the game is The Exception called a rift of any sort anywhere. The only time it's referred to as a rift is on the Sonic Wiki, which makes this argument fall flat.
  • The Eggmen couldn't have been out of the universe because they say they'll build the amusement park after they defeat Sonic.
    • Counter: Them stating they'll defeat Super Sonic and Burning Blaze before building Eggmanland in no way correlates to their positioning or the distance they travelled.
  • This feat was calculated by other members before, such as DontTalk. We shouldn't need a recalculation of this feat.
    • Counter: Something done long ago is not the be-all end-all of a calc when different pieces of info can be unearthed and context can change. Additionally, the assumptions the old calc made are wildly different and even caused it to be rejected iirc.
  • The universes merging don't necessesarily need to happen at the edges due to being lined up at a 5th dimensional axis.
    • Counter: That takes many more assumptions and goes against Occam's Razor, as the game implies a clear-cut merge beginning at the edges of their worlds and the seperation at the edges when the final boss concludes.
  • Super Sonic and Burning Blaze "leaving the universe" is just a shared transitional scene across the game.
    • Counter: False. Sonic and Blaze's normal boss fights begin like this, with blue and green streams and a transitional screen that is obviously just aesthetic. With Super Sonic and Burning Blaze, however, they have something completely different that actually perfectly aligns itself with where the battle is supposed to take place. The thing we see them approach and the area the boss battle takes place in is one in the same. There is no comparison to draw from.
  • We don't know how far Super Sonic and Burning Blaze travelled, even if it was outside the universe. Therefore, the feat is unquantifiable.
    • Counter: By taking a look at a clip of the feat, we can see that the surrounding darkness around The Exception dwarfs The Exception itself. Not only this, but there seem to be no repercussions of this formation just yet, implying a long distance between The Exception and Sonic's universe.
 
Thank you. Feel free to ask some staff members to comment here.
 
From what I see, this upgrade seems largely reliant on the assumption that the Eggmen had already travelled to the place "beyond this dimension" where they were going to build Eggmanland even before fighting Sonic and Blaze, something which I see no evidence for outside of, again, a pre-made assumption that's being used as the basis of the whole argument in the first place.

Is there any implication that they were going to build the amusement park in the Exception (or something of the sort), for instance? If so, I'd be able to go along with this, but otherwise it just seems vague as hell.

As Super Sonic and Burning Blaze approach their fight with the Eggmen, there are no celestial bodies visible in the darkness as they approach The Exception. If there are no celestial bodies, this implies they've left their universe to approach The Exception.

You do see a few colored spots which they fly through on their way to the Exception, although whether or not those are celestial bodies is up to interpretation, I suppose, and wouldn't really affect the real meat and potatoes of the feat.

The universes merging don't necessesarily need to happen at the edges due to being lined up at a 5th dimensional axis.

Even disregarding the idea of universes being displaced across a 5-dimensional space, a merging of two space-time continua obviously wouldn't happen in 3-dimensional space, at least not entirely, although I seriously doubt Sonic Rush would even acknowledge something as technical as this, anyways.

as the game implies a clear-cut merge beginning at the edges of their worlds and the seperation at the edges when the final boss concludes.

What are the implications of that, exactly? Aside from Sonic and Blaze being pulled on opposite directions once their realities split apart, I don't see anything that remotely implies that the Exception is at the edge of the universe.
 
Ultima Reality said:
From what I see, this upgrade seems largely reliant on the assumption that the Eggmen had already travelled to the place "beyond this dimension" where they were going to build Eggmanland even before fighting Sonic and Blaze, something which I see no evidence for outside of, again, a pre-made assumption that's being used as the basis of the whole argument in the first place.

Is there any implication that they were going to build the amusement park in the Exception (or something of the sort), for instance? If so, I'd be able to go along with this, but otherwise it just seems vague as hell.

You do see a few colored spots which they fly through on their way to the Exception, although whether or not those are celestial bodies is up to interpretation, I suppose, and wouldn't really affect the real meat and potatoes of the feat.

Even disregarding the idea of universes being displaced across a 5-dimensional space, a merging of two space-time continua obviously wouldn't happen in 3-dimensional space, at least not entirely, although I seriously doubt Sonic Rush would even acknowledge something as technical as this, anyways.

What are the implications of that, exactly? Aside from Sonic and Blaze being pulled on opposite directions once their realities split apart, I don't see anything that remotely implies that the Exception is at the edge of the universe.
Click to expand...
They were going to build it in the new dimension they would create following the destruction of Sonic and Blaze's worlds.

Those sparkles are from The Exception itself. A previous version of the calc actually assumed it was celestial bodies, and that's the reason it was denied to begin with. Which is exactly why the calculation assumes out-of-universe travel. There are literally no celestial bodies in between the blue glow they emerge from and The Exception itself. So this bit is actually more important than you might think, and is a part of what substantiates the battle being outside of the universe as well.

Yeah, Sonic Rush isn't gonna go all scientific on us with this sort of feat. Which is the main reason why I felt the need to address that sort of thing, as the game kinda makes it clear-cut there's no funny business in the merge.

The Exception isn't at the edge of the universe, it's outside of it. The Exception is a sort of cosmic distortion that's what signals that the Space-Times of their universes are beginning to collide and merge. So when we see that Sonic and Blaze are flung into opposite directions with what we already know about what The Exception is caused by and where it's "located", it goes hand-in-hand with what the calculation assumes from what's shown.
 
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