Sonic the Hedgehog: Super Forms Speed Upgrade

[ShakeResounding]

I have literally debunked every single claim Cal has made in my post and have yet to gotten a refute to any of it. Did you just ignore that?

Ultima's points? The majority of their points were asking questions for more context on things surrounding the feats and weren't even in disagreement.

Also, hate to break it to you. But most of DDM's points are things I've either already covered or was something that's already been debunked and talked about. You don't need Dimensional Travel when two universes are merging together, that's just nonsensical and egregious. That, and he's ignoring a lot of what happens in the cinematic of travelling there and a lot of what The Exception even is.

 

[Greenshifter]

Even disregarding the idea of universes being displaced across a 5-dimensional space, a merging of two space-time continua obviously wouldn't happen in 3-dimensional space, at least not entirely, although I seriously doubt Sonic Rush would even acknowledge something as technical as this, anyways.

I agree with this, many fictions just create "a thing that merges 2 universes that isn't allowed to be called a rift" right where the antagonist/protagonist is standing, the Exception doesn't need to be at the 3-D edge of the universe to merge 2 universes.

 

[Theuser789]

I agree with Shake

 

[ShakeResounding]

Seriously though, I'd like a refute to my post countering any of what I said.

Aside from Ultima simply asking for more context or giving their opinion on a few things, I've gotten nobody attempting to debate this or even completely ignoring this. Throne me a bone, staff. I wanna get this CRT over with.

 

[Greenshifter]

I think the problem is Shake that everybody agrees with the Exception being outside the universe, but you're basically saying that the standard on dimensional merging should be that it happens at the physical edge of the universes involved, which would literally write off a ton of universe mergings as not accurate since they do not follow Sonic's supposed logic and it's also not scientifically accurate to take Sonic's merging as a standard and them being pulled back to their original dimensions is good and all but for instance If Jimmy, Cindy and Timmy were holding hands (don't mind the music) and Jorgen decided to close the portal then Cindy would be ripped in half and both of her halves would end up in 2 different universes, the same thing can be said about Sonic and Blaze but without the ripping in half and a bit more gentler closing of the "rift" so it doesn't necessarily mean that they are at the edge of the universe.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Didn't FOP universe and JN universe had a portal to transport them from one universe to the next?

 

[Greenshifter]

The thing you see on screen is all we know on how it works, it might not be a straight up merger (or a very localised one) but the principle of what would happen when the portal closes remains the same.

 

[Theuser789]

Yes, there was a portal there, bad analogy

 

[Greenshifter]

I knew it, I could do a Ben 10 analogy here but that has to do with a rift through time.

That said does Blaze and Sonic being separated that way really matter? The Exception could have been on or above earth and there would be a pretty big chance that they would separate in the exact same way.

 

[Theuser789]

Because that would mean Blaze flew the distance of one universe and the other

It's not really the same thing in your analogies

 

[ShakeResounding]

Problem is the assumption that it takes place anywhere remotely close to the Earth. Again, if you look at the video of them travelling there, that giant void of darkness? Yeah, if they were approaching The Exception from anywhere within the universe then that empty space wouldn't be there. We see this during the cinematic of them approaching The Exception to begin with.

 

[Greenshifter]

Hmm could it be that the rift/portal separating the universes is under them when the cutscene starts? That way we only see them inside the space between universes and not how they got there, so that initial rift/portal could be located anywhere in Sonic's and Blaze's universes and then Blaze gets sucked back to her own universe via a second rift/portal.

 

[Theuser789]

This requires more assumptions and headcanons than what's proposed

 

[Greenshifter]

I think the feat requires 2 rifts no matter what, even if the merger happens at the edge of the universe.

 

[Theuser789]

There's no two rifts, nothing indicates that, you are just making headcanons, also it can't be below them, because that's where the Earth was, Occam's razor buddy

 

[Antvasima]

It seems like Ultima and other staff members disagree with this. Thank you for helping out by the way.

 

[Greenshifter]

All right so I've done some drawing (everything that looks like it has to be symmetric and the same size is also symmetric and has the same size, everything that looks like it should overlap (rifts in picture 2 with universe walls) overlaps). Blue is Sonic's universe, Red is Blaze's, yellow is where the fight takes place, green is a rift, grey doesn't actually exist but is to build a 3-D effect.


This is how I think you guys see it, the fight takes place within the green I assume.




This is how I think it would be if the rifts are at the edge of the universe.




This is how I think it actually is, you have to imagine this with one more dimension added, this is me using 2-D and 3-D to show the extra dimension that I have available. Now with real universes it would be 3-D and 4-D to show the extra dimension that I have available, which is something we accept here as Ultima Reality said "a merging of two space-time continua obviously wouldn't happen in 3-dimensional space, at least not entirely". (To be clear, blue and red do not touch, one is behind the other)

 

[ShakeResounding]

Problem, Ant.

• Ultima didn't disagree with anything, they were just questioning some contents of the feat.

• I've debunked the majority of Cal's points against the upgrade and have gotten no response.

• Elizhaa agrees with Cal. Defer to point 2.

 

[Greenshifter]

But can you debunk my artistic drawings?

 

[ShakeResounding]

as Ultima Reality said "a merging of two space-time continua obviously wouldn't happen in 3-dimensional space, at least not entirely".

And you completely ignore when Ultima said this.

although I seriously doubt Sonic Rush would even acknowledge something as technical as this, anyways.

 

[Greenshifter]

Doesn't that mean that they're not even thinking about how far Sonic has to go at all so we can't use it as a feat?

 

[ShakeResounding]

What? That's an unfounded leap in logic.

What that means, Mr. Boomer Shifter, is that the merging of universes will happen at the edged due to the simple fact that Sega isn't thinking about this complicated 5D axis business. Not that the entire feat is somehow invalidated because they "didn't think about the distance". Defer to my post about the mergings needing to be at the edge due to this.

 

[Greenshifter]

Ultima also said this: "What are the implications of that, exactly? Aside from Sonic and Blaze being pulled on opposite directions once their realities split apart, I don't see anything that remotely implies that the Exception is at the edge of the universe."

Which implies that you need direct proof to assume that the merging happened at the edge, any proof that does not exclude it not happening at the edge is thus not valid, in drawing 3 which describes a general merging of the 2 universes I can safely say that Sonic and Blaze getting split apart the way they were shown to is perfectly reconcilable with this drawing and hence does not prove that the merger had to happen at the edge of their respective universes.

 

[Theuser789]

But can you debunk my artistic drawings? </div> Unfounded assumptions doesn't need debunk

 

[Greenshifter]

Boomer Shifter oof, now I'm feeling old, also sad that nobody actually knows what the "shifter" stands for or people just like to write it in capital for some reason. But ok fine, but Ultima is still acting like a rift not being at the edge is a possibility so I don't think he means "Sega doesn't think this far ahead so the feat is good".

 

[ShakeResounding]

Your third diagram goes directly against the entire "lack of any celestial bodies between where they come from and where they're going". If it was happening at some random point in the universe, we would see stars. Nebulae. Any form of celestial bodies. Instead, we see a vast emptiness to support your second diagram, which is what all of the pro-side believes. Not the first.

You're dancing around things I've already explained to try and debunk the feat. Look at the arguments, man, I've already covered why it can't be like that.

 

[Greenshifter]

Nope because that black void would be in the cylinder made by the green circle, yellow circle and the grey lines, that part is outside of the universe and thus has no stars.

The green circle is under Blaze and Sonic, the yellow circle is the Exception above them.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Another unfounded assumption. Why would it interfere with the celestial bodies around it without something to say it would? That starts going against Occam's Razor.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Also, you misunderstand.

There is no rift. The rift is The Exception, but we stopped using the term because people were trying to debunk the feat by looking up the definition for a rift. It's never even called a rift in the game, we were just using the term. You're treating The Exception and the "rift" as different when they're one in the same. Did you get that confused?

 

[Greenshifter]

What is the thing under Sonic? I call that a rift and I call the Exception whatever the thing is where the fight takes place, sure it might all be the Exception but when I say Exception I mean orange nebula thingy with electrical sparks.

 

[Greenshifter]

Another unfounded assumption. Why would it interfere with the celestial bodies around it without something to say it would? That starts going against Occam's Razor.

Because that's what rifts do and no matter how you slice it, a hole in space-time is a rift, heck if there were celestial bodies at the edge of the universe then the exception (as in the totality of the exception aka the cylinder) would also interfere with them and suck them in (most likely).

 

[Antvasima]

@Shake

Well, I am afraid that I am not able to help out with this.

 

[ShakeResounding]

What is the thing under Sonic? I call that a rift and I call the Exception whatever the thing is where the fight takes place, sure it might all be the Exception but when I say Exception I mean orange nebula thingy with electrical sparks.

The universe is what they're flying out of, that's not a rift. To assume literally anything else is going agains't Occam's Razor, what with this "outside this dimension" business. What we're told and shown goes hand-in-hand, and anything else is a leap in logic.

Also they're i The Exception during the boss battle. They're surrounded by the orange we see that's caused by The Exception.

Ignoring your second comment, as there is no rift.

 

[ShakeResounding]

@Shake

Well, I am afraid that I am not able to help out with this.

That's okay. You can unsubscribe from the thread and we'll contact you when we reach a conclusion.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Bump!

Now that any "rift" misconceptions are cleared, what's left to discuss about the feat that still have people griping the feat? And I swear to god if somebody tries to bring up Dimensional Travel one more time

 

[Infiniverse_of_Oblivion]

Outside dimensions? 1-A REEEEEE!!!!!!!

 

[Theuser789]

Bump

 

[StrymULTRA]

Agree with all of this

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I agree with the upgrade too