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Sonic the Hedgehog: Super Forms Speed Upgrade

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Ok, the first point of beyond the universe isn't valid and you dropped It, the Rift one was then explained and you dropped It, and then you just said that's not enough evidence of what's said, then Shake explained, thus no points that weren't dropped
 
What's the argument of the opposition at this current moment? Some of the original points made against this were cleared up but I wanna know if anybody has anything left to go against this, which I'm sure some do, and I'm not sure if there were reasons that were ignored
 
I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion.

I recommend that you ask some administrators and discussion moderators to help out though.
 
Well at first glance it makes sense for universes to merge from the edge, however when 5-D axis was still a thing, the universes moving closer to each other on a 5-D axis does not necessarily mean their edges have to overlap first, kinda like DC where dimensions vibrate at different frequencies and merging a universe would be via bringing the frequencies closer together or something, that could be an instant merge or maybe a rift would start appearing once the frequencies are close enough but there is no telling where exactly this rift would appear and Sonic could have it's own equivalent to this.
 
Greenshifter said:
Well at first glance it makes sense for universes to merge from the edge, however when 5-D axis was still a thing, the universes moving closer to each other on a 5-D axis does not necessarily mean their edges have to overlap first, kinda like DC where dimensions vibrate at different frequencies and merging a universe would be via bringing the frequencies closer together or something, that could be an instant merge or maybe a rift would start appearing once the frequencies are close enough but there is no telling where exactly this rift would appear and Sonic could have it's own equivalent to this.
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Why would the universes be on a 5D axis without proof of it being the case, or that the universes in Sonic work in the same way as the DC universes? Seems far safer to assume that if two universes start to merge, then the merging would start on the edges of the universes
 
5-D axis is/was kinda the standard here and is the reason busting multiple universes is 2-C or more. Also I'm not saying Sonic works exactly like DC but to point out there are other options, the rift being close to where the emeralds are is one of those options.
 
If it was then it's not a valid point anymore nkr applying it to Sonic

There's no rift, that's just what the Sonic Wikia called it, it's just the point the universe merges, and the emeralds where on Earth, where clearly the final battle doesn't happen on
 
Well I guess, not even sure people do know what we do use for our current standards regarding distance between universes and such.

It's just that to me it sounds like "there" the universes are merging implies that a bit further in that direction is the other universe, which implies that you can use 3 dimensions to describe where another universe is, which is not the case. I may be nitpicking but stating that 2 universes merge at the edge is probably not something that can just be assumed to be the case.
 
What? The fact that they flew back also helps, unless one flew the distance of one universe and another

I think you are overcomplicanting the situation extremely, it's something normal to assume merges start at edges in almost anything
 
Sure of normal objects but universal space-time continua are not your everyday object and them getting closer on a 5-D axis is about as abstract as saying 2 points in time getting closer on a 4-D axis, so now I ask you does a merger of 2 points in time happen at the edge of those 2 points in time?
 
We see the universes begin to seperate as if you were perfectly pulling apart two pieces of gun after beginning to mush them together, and is tbe exact opposite action of what was happening to cause the merge to begin with. If the split was happening in a sense to reverse the merge, then it's clear that within the context they began from the edges anyways.

I think this is an overcomplication of something that was supposed to be simple.
 
That doesn't really look like pulling apart 2 pieces of gum or something. I mean a lightflash and that's basically it.
 
ShakeResounding said:
What's the argument of the opposition at this current moment? Some of the original points made against this were cleared up but I wanna know if anybody has anything left to go against this, which I'm sure some do, and I'm not sure if there were reasons that were ignored
Click to expand...
The main argument is the massive leap in logic that spacetime works like a Ven's diagram and that a random rift in space is at the edge because the universes are fusing.
 
Well space-time probably works like a Venn-diagram but a 5-D one where the word edge is too difficult for us too understand, but yeah like Cal said it's a bit of a leap in logic, granted writers may not think this far and just let the universes fuse at the 3-D edge, but we aren't sure about that.
 
Assuming that 2 universes merge at their edges require far less assumptions than saying that they must have merged in some 5D venn diagram that was taken from a merge in DC and that Sonic has nothing to do with how DC merges universes. Especially since nothing in Sonic even says that they even have that 5D diagram anyway.

The standard assumption is that the 2 universes merging with each others simply meet and start to merge at their edges like how combining 2 clay balls into one works but on a universal scale
 
Wow wow 5D doesn't come from DC but the tiering page for the last 3 years, they removed it for some reason but if anything it got more difficult not simpler so I'm basically explains many-worlds interpretation here which is not necessarily how DC treats things. If Sonic does not have that 5-D diagram then we basically got the Nights situation and the not causally closed off universes and thus destroying multiple universes is a higher degree of low 2-C, since this is not the case in Sonic, you also can't just claim they merge at the edge.
 
Greenshifter said:
Wow wow 5D doesn't come from DC but the tiering page for the last 3 years, they removed it for some reason but if anything it got more difficult not simpler so I'm basically explains many-worlds interpretation here which is not necessarily how DC treats things. If Sonic does not have that 5-D diagram then we basically got the Nights situation and the not causally closed off universes and thus destroying multiple universes is a higher degree of low 2-C, since this is not the case in Sonic, you also can't just claim they merge at the edge.
Click to expand...
Nights got accepted as 2-C, possibly 2-B anyways so he does have a 5D realm with multiple 3+1 space times (at least 2 I guess).

Also, the universes are 3D (exluding the temporal dimension), so if they meet, it will be on the 3D edges. Unless you mean that the universes are kind of intersecting each other with like two circles that one on the xy plane and the other is on the xz or yz plane.

However, if it was true, then parts of the second universe would already be intersecting with the first, which contradicts what said since they only said that they begin to merge and the second universe isn't partially on the first universe.
 
The main argument is the massive leap in logic that spacetime works like a Ven's diagram and that a random rift in space is at the edge because the universes are fusing.

Massive leap in logic? Seriously? What a massive leap of logic is the entire 5d axis discussion, which requires way more complicated assumptions versus a simple one

And again with "random Rift" when that was explained and you didn't adrees the refute? When the entire game shows the physical universes move by showing tremors everywhere, plus showing a literal space distortion, in guess what, the edge of the world map, not in a random place
 
Like, we literaly have the space distortion in the world map right at the far right edge of the world map, which is literaly the direction Blaze flies to at the end of the game, it's really clear guys

Check at 1:33:40 Mark, you can see the distortions at the right edge of the map:https://youtu.be/HI0v535mVUI
 
It's not clear at all. One, Blaze flying at the end of the game. She's not in space anymore. There's a clear sky and atmosphere so she's back on her world. Before that we only see her being pulled back.

Two, I straight up didn't see any distortions in the timestamp given. Not kidding. Idk if it's me or...

And three the scene in question where they fly up and the immediate scene afterwards. The best you have is that they were thrown back from Exception. We see what Exception looks like and it's a large rip in space. Not some sort of dimensional overlap.

Like I said, there's a ton of conjecture. This can be solved simply by providing a quote or a map showing this is at the edge of the universe. No logical reach-arounds. Just something that simple. Otherwise I doubt this will go through.
 
Because there was a time skip, Sonic is also not super and already reunited with his friends, but we see her already flying, so she flew there

Pay attention to the insland, you will see it moving, you will jeep seeing waves in the map, especialy clear in the lines separating the sky and space

No we don't, again the rip thing is only in the wikia,they couldn't be "throw back" because they never were there, they were at Earth, then they flew to Exception

As I showed, in the world map of both story's the distortions are right at the far right of the world map,which should be the proof you need, if you still can't see them I will have to show it frame by frame in 3 days when I get my computer back
 
Exactly. We see her being flung back, there's a timeskip, and then we see her flying. She could be flying on her earth for all we know, and it's likely given again, she has an atmosphere. Who knows how much time passed.

I'll look again.

After Egg Salamander is defeated, there's an explosion. We see the explosion from a wider angle. From that angle we see Exception. Which is an orange rip in space. And you saw all the cutscenes. Sonic and Blaze are holding hands as they're flung back, drawn to their own worlds.

Even if I can see the map, the map isn't universal in scope. The fact that distortions can be seen on it at all is showing that it doesn't need to be at the edge of the universe.
 
The main problem with your first post is that them stating they'll first defeat Sonic before building their theme Mark is that it doesn't remotely imply a contradition in the distance travelled. Them saying they'll defeat Sonic first doesn't mean they aren't there, but moreso means that they just can't do whatever they want with Sonic in the way. How does it imply they aren't already there moreso than them just needing to get rid of Sonic before they can do anything? The snippet already implies intergalactic travel as a minimum.

So basically a hard disagree that the Eggmen saying they need to beat Sonic first disproves that they didn't already travel the distance. That alome proving it seems nonsensical.
 
Also sorry for being so late to notice that. I wasn't too interested in following this thread or what people posted too closely but now I cleared up my schedule OvO
 
@Shake. Because the original point was being "beyond this dimension" when they fought. If they weren't gonna go "beyond this dimension" until after they beat down Sonic, why did the calc assume that they did. There's a reason DT didn't calc universal travel when he first did the calc.

No worries ol' chap. I get it m'boy.
 
Because they did go beyond their dimension already.

The clip shows Super Sonic and Burning Blaze flying out of the universe and towards the Exception. And we know they flew outside of the universe because there is literally no light anywhere around them except for those little sparkles as they fly towards the Exception, which share the colors of the other sparkles shown at the Exception before the stage and confirms it isn't from anything else. If they were inside of their universe, there would be light. And we know that the big red blotch is the Exception because the boss battle begins moments later.
 
No, it's not like that for everyone no, plus the other points, I like how it's a "strech" but we provided proof while the opposite side hasn't said what it could be nor proof of it
 
>"Exactly. We see her being flung back, there's a timeskip, and then we see her flying. She could be flying on her earth for all we know, and it's likely given again, she has an atmosphere. Who knows how much time passed."

Yes, she is flying on her Earth, that's the point, plus unless you unironicaly think It took years or months we not knowing the timeframe is not a argument when the series implies it's not a gigantic timeskip, at absolute best is a few hours

>"After Egg Salamander is defeated, there's an explosion. We see the explosion from a wider angle. From that angle we see Exception. Which is an orange rip in space. And you saw all the cutscenes. Sonic and Blaze are holding hands as they're flung back, drawn to their own worlds"

I will look again but I don't renember it being just a random rip in space but more like the conversion between the two worlds, and they being spatialy pulled back also supports this, otherwise that wouldn't happen

>"Even if I can see the map, the map isn't universal in scope. The fact that distortions can be seen on it at all is showing that it doesn't need to be at the edge of the universe."

The World map is universal, plus it being show doesn't disprove anything because they have to show to the players what is happening, your point would be valid if it was draw in scale, which isn't, thus that point is moot, if it's at the edge instead of everywhere shows the authors wanted it to be at the edge
 
Theuser789 said:
No, it's not like that for everyone no, plus the other points, I like how it's a "strech" but we provided proof while the opposite side hasn't said what it could be nor proof of it
Click to expand...
Kuch kuch 5-D axis Kuch and you're trying to prove a positive, I'm just saying universes work this way, hence it doesn't matter where the Exception is.
 
She was flung back out of her control. Sure, that speed is much higher than what she is rated as, but she doesn't scale to that. We see her flying on her earth because like...she reached her earth. Nothing showed she stopped being flung back and regaining control of her momentum before she reached her earth.

As I said, them being equally flung back is the best piece of evidence for that, but it's nowhere near enough to justify them being at the edge of the universe.

What shoes the map being universal in scale? And being at the edge the screen isn't that authorial intent that you're suggesting. The only excuse would be a universal map like you suggested (in which see above), but otherwise what we see is what we get.
 
Nothing says in the entire canon that the flung back was that strong or amped Blaze enough, the flurng back it's just forcing them to separate, anything else like it flew they all the way back to the Earth in that momentum that IS wsy faster is just headcanon

Well, at least you admited it is evidence, you need to show a better alternative, saying no is not a counter argument, nor saying it's not enough or similar things

The space part at the right edge, the map is not draw in scale so you have not everything being like a real world map, but there's clearly space in the right edge and beyond the Earth, so points stands
 
Kuch kuch 5-D axis Kuch and you're trying to prove a positive, I'm just saying universes work this way, hence it doesn't matter where the Exception is.

Except people already explained your 5d Axis thing and your points amd refuted it, nothing implies at all it works like you say it does, especialy they being flung back spatialy would also debunk this

Also what is even Kush kush?
 
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