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All I really got was that the End could wipe out everything that had ever been created, which really isn’t requiring being conceptual.
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Sonic the Hedgehog (Game) CRT: To New Frontiers
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The End is a beyond imagination being to Sage, who knows all data in Cyber Space that’s amount defies quantification.
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And how does that point to it being conceptual in nature.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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Gonna have to disagree with concept manip/AE FRA, better to just wait for further context.
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Agree with everything except concept stuff.
TheKingStrategist13
He/Him- 1,318
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Agree with everything minus what is only supported by statements from The End itself during it's own bossfight.
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Unlike the concept stuff I think the End’s statement does support AE, it’s basically the same as Void from Kirby.
Same with the planetoid form being > Solaris, it gives Sonic an extremely hard fight long after ‘06.
Same with the planetoid form being > Solaris, it gives Sonic an extremely hard fight long after ‘06.
thetechmaster36
He/Him- 1,830
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Question: why concept manip and not NPI? As far as I remember, just interacting with concepts has never granted you concept manip over NPI; I think you need more than just interaction to prove that a character has concept manip
TioKill
They/Them- 739
- 465
Contradictions to what? The End's word have to go under an interpretation of an individual to get these abilities. Why do WE have to prove a negative?
It's verbatim - "Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence", this isn't extraordinary evidence, you're just agreeing because you want the character to have said ability, even though you recognize the evidence for it is poor at best.
Also, Hitchen's Razor, weak evidence can be countered with weak arguments.
Evidence: "The End said X, and can be interpreted as Y"
Counter: "It can also be interpreted as any other thing, or just plain arrogance".
We shouldn't be giving abilities based on an interpretation of a statement of an unreliable source. But we're going to because Staff can walk over "democracy". Ridiculous.
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Because the author and creators of “The End” gave The End those words. You’d have to explain why interpreting The End’s words to mean nothing is an option by the story’s narrative.
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But I’m leaning to a “likely” rating for Concept manip instead of a straight rating for it. The End’s words hold value if that’s the narrative the creators want to go in.
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Most people disagree with you, tho. You're outvoted by both normal members and staff.
I still don't see any proof of The End's statments being unrealible as well. It's just people treating my own wording in the page as WoG for some reason.
TioKill
They/Them- 739
- 465
I never said they don't mean nothing. I said they're weak evidence that require biased interpretation towards a particular meaning - and thus can be countered with a simple: "It also might mean something else, or just arrogance". Which is true.
If the one who made the hypothesis cannot bring any solice to their claim, then it's not even a theory, much less something we should index as a fact on The End's profile - we're quite literally joining canon with headcanon.
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"It could be" or "What if" aren't counters and will never be counters. They mean nothing
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Than what are the other interpretations of The End’s words? They have to mean something if the narrative made the final boss say them.
TioKill
They/Them- 739
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Most people - myself included - who voted for agree didn't even know The End had conceptual manipulation.
His arrogance isn't being noted due to your words, no. You're just being pointed out that - "Hey, to literally agree about it's arrogance, why would you take it's word for it?", it's trying to make a point that you shouldn't be arguing for it being reliable in the first place.
What do you mean there's no evidence? It has been explained. If The End often talks about itself in arrogance, taking it's word for granted is risky, and unreliable without any solice
Furthermore, if it's talking about itself, why would we index that in his lesser form? This would be indexed in it's hypothetical true form, not this moon formation. We often forget Sonic never even interacted with the True The End.
TioKill
They/Them- 739
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If it's not counters, how can it be arguments or evidence?
Your point is literally "it means this", when in reality it's "it could mean this".
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I just interpreted them as evidence the End could destroy the entire cosmology.
TioKill
They/Them- 739
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A metaphor for the destruction of all, or simply a claim about how great it sees itself in comparison to rest of reality. It depends on basic methods of destruction to cause harm to the planet, and our dimension. Why would we interpret it as anything more than that based on such words?
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Why would the narrative use a metaphor or rather, misinformation for a character’s only major appearance? Who they wrote as unsympathetic and genocidal?
TioKill
They/Them- 739
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Read the rest, I sent it early.
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I don’t wanna guess which post to read tho. ;^; What are you referring to?
TioKill
They/Them- 739
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This one, sorry.
I accidentally sent it before I finished writing it.
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Not my fault people don't actually read. In fact this entire discussion just proves that even further. People just want self-gratification. This is why there's so many "what ifs" being thrown around. Nobody cares about the actual truth, just powerscaler terms for matches between toys
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After reading Sonic’s mind and seeing the Egg Wizard merging universes, Solaris eating all of space & time and the Time Eater doing to same but not as many universes, The End says those words. How is it a metaphor if it’s saying it in response of other beings doing the similar?
The End simply doesn’t view Sonic as a threat. It makes remarks about how it thinks the Ancient were in trapping it but views Sonic and the things he did as lower in comparison to the Ancients.
This perception is not unjustified. The Ancients’ technology allowed them to make Mechs with 1 Emerald to match The End, while Sonic used all 7 to compare.
The End was not wrong to think Sonic was weak compare to what the Ancients accomplished with the Emeralds.
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Okay.
All of that proves it’s stronger than everything else.
How does that prove it’s a concept.
All of that proves it’s stronger than everything else.
How does that prove it’s a concept.
TheKingStrategist13
He/Him- 1,318
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Don't try to derail this into some philosophical question on how People wish to interact with truth and what people aim to do when powerscaling, that's not a good argument for the situation at hand and just serves as a distraction.
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It’s NPI with the ability to affect concepts, so that is a form of conceptual manipulation. What doesn’t count is indirect destruction of a type 2 or lower concept by targeting the object it is bound to.
thetechmaster36
He/Him- 1,830
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I suppose so, but would this even apply to The End's moon form? It's implied that it has a true form, right?
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Its true form was sealed by the Titans and it retreated into space to regain it, so there’s that.
thetechmaster36
He/Him- 1,830
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That is, assuming The End is a concept to begin with
MysticMania
He/Him- 1,016
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I agree with everything, I believe, but I am iffy on the conceptual manipulation.
TioKill
They/Them- 739
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Because it still works - metaphorically being "all destruction" is still a form of bragging about your power.
After reading Sonic’s mind and seeing the Egg Wizard merging universes, Solaris eating all of space & time and the Time Eater doing to same but not as many universes, The End says those words. How is it a metaphor if it’s saying it in response of other beings doing the similar?
Match is a strong word. But sure.
This is not what I'm trying to argue, The End sees itself as something greater than our world, this is a very valid interpretation of the line "I am all and I am nothing".
The End being the concept of entropy really has no solice.
TioKill
They/Them- 739
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This is again, begging your own argument. For this complaint to work, your interpretation, your particular "what if" needs to be the truth beyond any doubt. It is not. Do you truly think one non-definitive line is enough to prove something is the embodiment of a literal concept? It isn't.
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The main problem is that everyone here, with their powerscaling bias, thinks that something being "a concept" is more impressive/needs more proof than anything else, when that's not true. The only reason people are so against it is because it's a big, "powerful" hax rather than they actually are disagreeing narratively. If it was an irrelevant ability, everyone wouldn't give a shit. But that's derrailing
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I can accept they removing concept manipulation (since I didn't even add that) or making it a likely/possibily since in the end this is a powerscaling site. Abstract existence should still be kept since that has nothing to do with concept manipulation
TioKill
They/Them- 739
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Don't rant about how we index stuff around here, you evidence is weak to any hax, and we're not about to index personal interpretation as canonical information - bar none. The End never alluded to being a literal concept, and never showed any instance of it in any way, shape or form - neither on narrative, on lore, or on it's actual battle.
Futhermore, again, why the hell would we even index this in it's incomplete form?
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