Finite Speed? That's Small Time! (Modern Base Sonic Speed CRT)

[CloverDragon03]

Hi, it's me again. So, I don't know why my only Sonic revisions up to this point have exclusively been insane ones, but it is what it is I guess. Much like my last one, though, this one's focused on Speed.

So, what have I been cooking up? Let's see for ourselves.

Currently, Modern Base Sonic's speed is Massively FTL+, and while this is quite appropriate for the fastest thing alive, I want to propose an upgrade to even higher tiers. Now, which tier, exactly? Well, actually both speeds above Massively FTL+. That is, both Infinite and Immeasurable. I'm not going to cast a vote either way but if you ask me I prefer Infinite due to there being more straight-up feats for it, because I feel you could argue either way. I've simply gathered some feats and scaling that will hopefully justify either rating (and I've organized them in series order), and whatever happens, happens. So, without further ado, let's get into the feats and scaling:

The Feats/Scaling​

1. In Sonic and the Secret Rings, Sonic crosses the corridor of Night Palace after undoing the damage done to it, which is stated to be infinite in size. (Infinite)
2. Once more in Sonic Generations, Base Sonic is stated to accelerate through time. In addition, this appears to be just as normal to Sonic as regular running, as he simply says he needs to "run like there's no tomorrow" and the way he does this is simply by running through these zones like in any other game. (Immeasurable)​
3. In Sonic Forces, Base Sonic and The Avatar are able to escape Null Space through sheer speed. Null Space is an alternate dimension that is stated to go on forever, be an endless void, and contain absolutely nothing. (Infinite)​
4. In Sonic Frontiers, Base Sonic is able to run from Wyvern for an extended period of time, with Wyvern being bloodlusted due to Sage awakening its rage against Sonic. (Immeasurable)​
5. In Sonic Frontiers: The Final Horizon, Sage and Eggman are able to react to Tethered Supreme's danmaku, and can act before it reaches them. (Immeasurable)​

Overall, I hope this provides enough consistency to prove that Base Sonic (and those who scale to him) should be upgraded to Infinite or Immeasurable speed.

The last thing I want to note is that if either of these get accepted, it will affect Darkspine Sonic due to being superior to Base Sonic. And because of this, this means that the minimum speed of Super Forms will scale up depending on what's accepted, if anything.

And well, that's about it from me. I understand this will be a very controversial revision, probably even more than my Low 2-C Modern Base Sonic one, so let's please be respectful when discussing this. And now, I leave it to y'all.

DISCUSS!

Agree with Infinite: 16 (@Eseseso, @KLOL506, @The_Unknown_Warrior1, @LaserPrecision, @Planck69, @Peptocoptr27 [neutral on Immeasurable], @AdamVhenJP, @Javenplayz253, @Remus1998, @Elizhaa, @omegabronic, @Alexander, @JED, @ShakeResounding [“Immeasurable when accelerating through erased time”], @Theuser789 [“possibly Infinite”], @KingTempest, @DemonGodMitchAubin)

• All four evaluating staff also agree with ShakeResounding's suggestion

Agree with Immeasurable: 6 (@omegabronic ["possibly Immeasurable" from Generations feat; disagrees with Titan scaling], @The_Unknown_Warrior1 ["possibly Immeasurable"; same reasons as Omega], @Spectra_Schiffer, @JED [Generations onwards], @DemonGodMitchAubin, @KingTempest)
Disagree: 2 (@DarkDragonMedeus, @The_Yellow_Topaz)
Neutral:

 

[Eseseso]

You freaking cooked, man.

I am going with Infinite for now, but am not opposed to Immeasurable.

 

[KLOL506]

My thoughts are largely the same as Eseseso.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

I agree with Infinite as well FYI, I'm a bit skeptical of Immesurable since the majority of the feats come from reacting to characters which were superior to Base Sonic but I'll remain neutral till anything comes up to switch my vote.

I hope you're prepared for the madness which will come soon, Clover.

 

[KLOL506]

@Maverick_Zero_X @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @Starter_Pack @LordGriffin1000 @DemonGodMitchAubin Your input here would be appreciated.

 

[LaserPrecision]

As someone who pretty much provided all the scans for Infinite speed in the op, I whole-heartedly agree on that front. As someone who's also argued Immeasurable, I'm a bit neutral. And will give a more decisive vote regarding that later. But as of right now, I need to think about it and let it marinate.

 

[CloverDragon03]

As someone who pretty much provided all the scans for Infinite speed in the op, I whole-heartedly agree on that front. As someone who's also argued Immeasurable, I'm a bit neutral. And will give a more decisive vote regarding that later. But as of right now, I need to think about it and let it marinate.

So should I at least count you as agreeing on Infinite, or should I wait until you've fully gathered your thoughts on Immeasurable?

 

[Planck69]

Infinite seems fine to me.

 

[LaserPrecision]

So should I at least count you as agreeing on Infinite, or should I wait until you've fully gathered your thoughts on Immeasurable?

Put me on agree for Infinite. I advocated for that for a while and provided the scans for it, so I'm def in agreement with that. Don't plan on changing my mind or thinking about that any time soon. It's only Immeasurable I need to think about.

 

[LaserPrecision]

I will say this early. I think Infinite speed, likely/possibly Infinite seems more feasible. Since I think Infinite is definitely more concrete as of now. Next time I comment, it'll be about Immeasurable. Just thought I'd point that out as a suggestion.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Also from Generations, Sonic beat Perfect Chaos, which would no longer be an outlier.

Likewise, Sonic beat the Death Egg Robot in Forces, who should logically be faster than the Phantom King due to being created by a more experienced Eggman and actually overclocking the power source they both used.

Given our current scaling chain for the series, Sonic outrunning Wyvern (and Knight) would be an outlier despite how blatant it is, just like him dodging attacks from the Time Eater. As much as I may have issues with this scaling chain in regards to speed, it doesn't really matter for this upgrade.

I agree with infinite speed post Secret Rings and I definitely agree with immeasurable post Generations.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Perfect Chaos and the Death Egg Robot (along with the Phantom King) are not Immeasurable

 

[AdamVhenJP]

I agree with the infinite

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Perfect Chaos and the Death Egg Robot (along with the Phantom King) are not Immeasurable

They were just a short time ago. When did the downgrade happen?

 

[CloverDragon03]

They were just a short time ago. When did the downgrade happen?

Here

 

[Javenplayz253]

Infinite is good I agree might have to look in immeasurable.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Consider me neutral for immeasurable then. The only way it's happening is if we either:

1: Don't consider Sonic's 1 legit immeasurable feat an outlier

2: Actually accept Klepto Mobile immeasurable scaling, which is sketchy because it just looks like acausality/time manip resistance to me.

3: Change the speed scaling chain to accept base characters downscale from Super forms, which I would be fine with, but that's not what the thread is about.

 

[Remus1998]

Agree with Infinite

 

[Elizhaa]

Infinite speed is fine.

 

[omegabronic]

agree on infinite speed, disagree with Wyvern and Giganto scaling

would be fine with Possibly Immeasurable from the Generations feat

way too late, will try to elaborate on this later

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

Honestly? I am neutral on the Generations feat because I'm not too knowledgeable on Immeasurable speed's criteria, but I do disagree with scaling Base Sonic in any capacity to the Titans in terms of speed.

See the issue with that, despite the feats within themselves being quite concrete admittedly, in my perspective is that Frontiers consistently treats all the Titans as being massively superior to Base Sonic in practically every capacity. Especially the likes of Wyvern who, in his boss fight with Super Sonic, was outpacing him while being chased and Sonic either slows it down by hitting it with its own missiles or having to gradually catch up to Wyvern. I don't really have much to say in regards to Sage and Eggman reacting and act against Tethered Supreme's danmaku, but I find it a tad bit odd to scale Base level characters to an entity that was already superior to normal Super Sonic and was fighting comparably to Starfall Super Sonic.

@CloverDragon03 If I might inquire from you, do you have any arguments on your part on why you think the Frontiers stuff can be downscaled to Base Sonic and co? I'd rather hear your perspective since you made this thread, but atm I just can't see it

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean really, my logic was simply that Wyvern was bloodlusted (as shown by Sage awakening its rage against Sonic), so it wouldn't be holding back its speed due to trying to chase down Sonic. Obviously, this doesn't make Base Sonic as fast as his Super Form, but I thought a downscale would simultaneously keep that intact while addressing the feat itself. Same goes for the Tethered Supreme feat, essentially. Sage and Eggman make some short movements as the blasts travel a greater distance, so they're evidently not on the same level of speed, hence why I proposed a downscale.

That being said, as I've made clear in the OP, I'm not exactly gonna be fighting for my life on this matter. If anything, I slightly prefer Infinite due to it having more blatant feats rather than downscaling.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

I mean really, my logic was simply that Wyvern was bloodlusted (as shown by Sage awakening its rage against Sonic), so it wouldn't be holding back its speed due to trying to chase down Sonic. Obviously, this doesn't make Base Sonic as fast as his Super Form, but I thought a downscale would simultaneously keep that intact while addressing the feat itself. Same goes for the Tethered Supreme feat, essentially. Sage and Eggman make some short movements as the blasts travel a greater distance, so they're evidently not on the same level of speed, hence why I proposed a downscale.

That being said, as I've made clear in the OP, I'm not exactly gonna be fighting for my life on this matter. If anything, I slightly prefer Infinite due to it having more blatant feats rather than downscaling.

Hmm...if you were to personally ask me I think the Tethered Supreme and Generations feats are more concrete then Wyvern scaling because, as I mentioned in my comment, Wyvern was shown to be capable of outpacing Super Sonic for a certain amount of time in their fight which is why I'm not too keen on that being one of the justifications.

Regardless I think I'm in the same boat as Omega in regards to possibly Immeasurable due to the Generations feat, and like him I also disagree with Titan scaling so if you want to you could mark me down as agreeing with possibly

 

[Alexander]

I agree with all

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

I agree with all

 

[CloverDragon03]

I agree with all

Infinite speed or Immeasurable speed?

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

Immeasurable speed

this is good for me

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

A friend of mine messaged me and wrote stuff. And while taking some things into account, I will be using my own words though.

• For the Secret Rings one, been a while since I played it but I also heard something about a Purple Malestorm he crosses
• The second just seems like a regular Time Travel ability that may not scale to combat speed or reactions + plenty of characters comparable to Sonic cannot do this feat is worth mentioning.
• He did escape Null Space, and they basically said "Nothing can stop us at full power, not even Null Space." It's more so he formed a portal by breaking some space rather than him physically traveling infinite distance.
• Looks alright on paper for him to be comparable to Wyvern, but I was asked is Wyvern accepted as Immeasurable speed?
• Sage did put up a barrier, but where does Eggman's proposal come in for Immeasurable.

I personally disagree with Immeasurable speed for base Sonic for a couple reasons. The one from Generations doesn't really meet criteria, and while the Frontiers does seem to have some okay scaling. Furthermore, even if the feats were legit, I have a feeling they're most likely outliers. It does not narratively make sense to Base Sonic to be on Super Sonic's level power or speed wise; and likewise, those stats sound like it would be inconsistent given the likes of Knuckles, Tails, Amy, ect aren't overwhelmingly slower than Sonic to that extent.

While not going to hard argue against Infinite, since that has a lot of support. There are still good points about portal stuff and may question of those are Infinite speed as opposed to Dimensional Travel via Portal Creation. And my outlier concerns also extent here but to a lesser extent.

I guess I disagree overall. But I will call other Sonic supporters. And may be forgetting some.

@ShakeResounding @Theuser789 @Gilad_Hyperstar @ElixirBlue

 

[CloverDragon03]

For the Secret Rings one, been a while since I played it but I also heard something about a Purple Malestorm he crosses

The purple maelstrom leads him to an astral plane that he has to cross to simply remove the barriers in his way. It has no bearing on him crossing the infinite-sized corridor

He did escape Null Space, and they basically said "Nothing can stop us at full power, not even Null Space." It's more so he formed a portal by breaking some space rather than him physically traveling infinite distance.

I wouldn't really say that, given that what they did was a Double Boost. This is a technique involving sheer speed, so it'd be more likely for this to be a speed feat than some form of Dimensional Travel or Portal Creation

Looks alright on paper for him to be comparable to Wyvern, but I was asked is Wyvern accepted as Immeasurable speed?

Wyvern is accepted as Immeasurable, yes

Sage did put up a barrier, but where does Eggman's proposal come in for Immeasurable.

Eggman ducks and covers as Supreme's blasts rain down, as he wasn't doing this before yet he was shown having ducked by the time Sage's barrier went up

I personally disagree with Immeasurable speed for base Sonic for a couple reasons. The one from Generations doesn't really meet criteria, and while the Frontiers does seem to have some okay scaling. Furthermore, even if the feats were legit, I have a feeling they're most likely outliers. It does not narratively make sense to Base Sonic to be on Super Sonic's level power or speed wise; and likewise, those stats sound like it would be inconsistent given the likes of Knuckles, Tails, Amy, ect aren't overwhelmingly slower than Sonic to that extent.

I'm not opposed to this. As I even specified in the OP, I personally lean more towards Infinite

While not going to hard argue against Infinite, since that has a lot of support. There are still good points about portal stuff and may question of those are Infinite speed as opposed to Dimensional Travel via Portal Creation. And my outlier concerns also extent here but to a lesser extent.

I guess I disagree overall. But I will call other Sonic supporters. And may be forgetting some.

I don't believe the outlier concerns make as much sense for Infinite speed, as even Adventure Era Base Sonic has feats into billions of times FTL and even higher as the games progress. Going to the next tier, that being Infinite speed, seems like a very natural progression (and afaik currently his Modern Base speed is quadrillions of times FTL or higher)

I will count your vote, though, but feel free to let me know if anything changes regarding your stance since I believe I've clarified some stuff for you.

 

[LaserPrecision]

• For the Secret Rings one, been a while since I played it but I also heard something about a Purple Malestorm he crosses

You chase the purple maelstrom through the infinite corridor.

• The second just seems like a regular Time Travel ability that may not scale to combat speed or reactions + plenty of characters comparable to Sonic cannot do this feat is worth mentioning.

Most character's aren't comparable to Sonic in travel speed tho. He's one of the fastest characters in-universe. But tbf, I also disagree with this feat, but for different reasons entirely.

• He did escape Null Space, and they basically said "Nothing can stop us at full power, not even Null Space." It's more so he formed a portal by breaking some space rather than him physically traveling infinite distance.

The scan used explicitly states they break through Null Space. Through means from one end to the other.

Through: Moving in one side and out of the other side of (an opening, channel, or location).

Seems to me they ran through all of Null Space and broken an opening at the edge of Null Space (Which is Infinite, thus meaning infinite distance was traversed) to escape.

given the likes of Knuckles, Tails, Amy, ect aren't overwhelmingly slower than Sonic to that extent.

Sonic's usually > all of them. The most they usually are is comparable in combat speed. But in regards to travel speed, Sonic is one of the fastest consistently. In fact, Sonic's travel speed has perception blitzed Tails in Generations.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The purple maelstrom leads him to an astral plane that he has to cross to simply remove the barriers in his way. It has no bearing on him crossing the infinite-sized corridor

I suppose fair

I wouldn't really say that, given that what they did was a Double Boost. This is a technique involving sheer speed, so it'd be more likely for this to be a speed feat than some form of Dimensional Travel or Portal Creation

I mean, while on paper that may sound it. They narratively say he's running so fast it's breaking a barrier and definitely running very fast, but that's still common for writing to say things that don't really make sense logically. We do visually see a portal of some sort open up as they're running, which isn't really something that could be used to justify a speed rating and no raw speed really could do something like that. But the tear in space is something he already has dimensional travel iirc.

I don't believe the outlier concerns make as much sense for Infinite speed, as even Adventure Era Base Sonic has feats into billions of times FTL and even higher as the games progress. Going to the next tier, that being Infinite speed, seems like a very natural progression (and afaik currently his Modern Base speed is quadrillions of times FTL or higher)

It is important to realize that a gap between billions of times FTL and Infinite speed is still an infinitely bigger gap between snail velocity and billions of times FTL. Not saying that alone makes something an outlier, just pointing out that number of many times FTL alone isn't particularly relevant.

Also, it's alright. If I'm outvoted, I'm outvoted. I'm just waiting for more input one way or another.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean, while on paper that may sound it. They narratively say he's running so fast it's breaking a barrier and definitely running very fast, but that's still common for writing to say things that don't really make sense logically. We do visually see a portal of some sort open up as they're running, which isn't really something that could be used to justify a speed rating and no raw speed really could do something like that. But the tear in space is something he already has dimensional travel iirc.

As Laser has pointed out, this is referred to them as breaking through Null Space, which indicates that they traversed to the end of Null Space (which would be an infinite distance) and escaped from there

It is important to realize that a gap between billions of times FTL and Infinite speed is still an infinitely bigger gap between snail velocity and billions of times FTL. Not saying that alone makes something an outlier, just pointing out that number of many times FTL alone isn't particularly relevant.

Also, it's alright. If I'm outvoted, I'm outvoted. I'm just waiting for more input one way or another.

I'm aware of that. My point was mainly to highlight that Sonic crossing into the next tier with legitimate feats would be pretty justified, especially compared to something like jumping from Massively Hypersonic+ to Infinite, as an example. It illustrates a natural progression, so to speak.

I can definitely see Immeasurable being more likely to be an outlier, though.

 

[JED]

Infinite is an easy agree. And as long as immeasurable is Gens and onwards, I agree with it (finally).

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Agree with Infinite, neutral on Immeasurable

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

How I feel about this is odd, thought Sonic would manage infinite speed EVENTUALLY on this wiki but the choices for it are weird to me.

Like pointed out earlier from Medeus, Sonic's already had dimensional travel through running and double boost sorta feels like an enhanced variant of that ability- breaking through null space wouldn't require them to run the full infinite distance if it was that, no? Less what's shown they come out of when Sonic's saying 'sup everyone, missed this place' only adds on to the infinite speed point, then that along with the secret rings feat I have no problem with.

Wouldn't another helping add on point be Sonic running out of the arabian nights as well? If not, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Though I'm torn on immeasurable speed base sonic. Somehow feel like a 'possibly immeasurable' would work better, also, editing this- the titan scaling I'm also on the fence with.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Like pointed out earlier from Medeus, Sonic's already had dimensional travel through running and double boost sorta feels like an enhanced variant of that ability- breaking through null space wouldn't require them to run the full infinite distance if it was that, no? Less what's shown they come out of when Sonic's saying 'sup everyone, missed this place' only adds on to the infinite speed point, then that along with the secret rings feat I have no problem with.

I can understand where you're coming from in regards to the Null Space feat. But the Encyclospeedia (An official book covering ALL Sonic games up to Forces written by Ian Flynn [Who assists, and even at times writes for the games] and supervised by SEGA of Japan officials who are in charge of Sonic) states that Sonic breaks through Null Space. Which gives an explicit confirmation in regards to what occurred in the feat. The wording suggests that Sonic ran from one end of Null Space, and broke out the other. Reaching one end, and breaking out the other means Sonic crossed the whole distance, and simply traveled back to his dimension after reaching Null Space's edge. I think it should be Infinite speed and some enhanced Dimensional Travel.

Wouldn't another helping add on point be Sonic running out of the arabian nights as well?

Well Arabian Nights is separated from the real world. It's not like an infinite distance exist between them. So it wouldn't really help as an additional Infinite speed feat or anything. Just the current justification for Sonic having Interdimensional travel.

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

The wording suggests that Sonic ran from one end of Null Space, and broke out the other. Reaching one end, and breaking out the other means Sonic crossed the whole distance, and simply traveled back to his dimension after reaching Null Space's edge. I think it should be Infinite speed and some enhanced Dimensional Travel.

Ah okay, I see. Would the 'double boost' be more applicable for that than just sonic themselves? Especially since friendship boosts are a thing. Either way, whether it be double boost only or sonic able to do this sort of thing in base, yeah I can definitely say I agree with that feat being infinite.

I'm also trying to think about the generations feat, as 'accelerating through time/traveling through time and space' could just be referring to the levels, yeah? Which is funny in retrospect because an immeasurable G.U.N truck is hilarious sounding (even if I know it doesn't work like that), but feels like there's definitely a confliction with that feat.

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Well Arabian Nights is separated from the real world. It's not like an infinite distance exist between them. So it wouldn't really help as an additional Infinite speed feat or anything. Just the current justification for Sonic having Interdimensional travel.

Also, thanks for clearing this up. I'll remember this for the future.

 

[Theuser789]

In Sonic and the Secret Rings, Sonic crosses the corridor of Night Palace after undoing the damage done to it, which is stated to be infinite in size. (Infinite)

This is a legit feat. I read some complaints here about the "Purple Malestorm", but that's just what Sonic uses to break the gates in order to cross the infinite space.

Once more in Sonic Generations, Base Sonic is stated to accelerate through time. In addition, this appears to be just as normal to Sonic as regular running, as he simply says he needs to "run like there's no tomorrow" and the way he does this is simply by running through these zones like in any other game. (Immeasurable)

This is also legit but it's kind of a weird feat. Because it's more of a Sonic ability rather than sheer immeasurable speed. Like in CD where Sonic time travels by reaching FTL speeds rather than just being straight up immeasurable. Plus Classic Sonic does this feat, too, and I doubt you want to upgrade him, too.

In Sonic Forces, Base Sonic and The Avatar are able to escape Null Space through sheer speed. Null Space is an alternate dimension that is stated to go on forever, be an endless void, and contain absolutely nothing. (Infinite)

Sonic can only do this with the Double Boost, which is far fast than is regular running speed. So while it's valid, I disagree with Sonic scaling to it.

1. In Sonic Frontiers, Base Sonic is able to run from Wyvern for an extended period of time, with Wyvern being bloodlusted due to Sage awakening its rage against Sonic. (Immeasurable)​
2. In Sonic Frontiers: The Final Horizon, Sage and Eggman are able to react to Tethered Supreme's danmaku, and can act before it reaches them. (Immeasurable)​

Disagree with backscaling Sonic to the Titans. They can keep with Super Sonic and even stronger variants of the form. Big no.

I agree with "possibly" infinite rating because of the valid Secret Rings feat. Everything else I am somewhat against.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Sonic can only do this with the Double Boost, which is far fast than is regular running speed. So while it's valid, I disagree with Sonic scaling to it.

Tbf it’s called “Double Boost” and in-game Metal Sonic doesn’t get instantly blitzed by it, so I think it would be fair to argue that Sonic downscales from it.