Sonic revisions part 2

[The_Smashor]

I am forced to repost this, as it was closed for misenterprited reasons. I wanted to temporarily close it so that both Darks wouldn't go on with their baseless statements and biased speculation while I was unable to retort. We were in the midst of arguing about it, I simply needed to leave for a couple hours. Life and such. I have made some edits to this to make it more relevant to the discussion we were having, like changing it so that I don't scale the SA3 planet spit to Sonic Unleashed's planet spit. Please do not close this, as I am not finished. Calling what was happening a "Shitstorm" is a strech. If this begins to turn into a "Shitstorm" and it is because of me, kindly tell me instead of instantly closing the page. I know many users of this wiki are heavily against tier 5 base Sonic, the franchise has many people that despise it so that makes sence, but this wiki is to find the truth of a character's power, so please refrain from allowing personal bias to fog your view. Refrain from personal attacks and the like.

Yes. This is for tier 5 base Sonic. Also note that I am 100% fine with this thread being necroed, and request that this is not closed if necroed. Now then, to the basis of my arguement:

The power of the Chaos Emeralds
As stated in Sonic Advance 3's manual and shown in the intro, Eggman was able to split earth in seven using Chaos Control, powered by one emerald. Note that this splitting is never shown on screen, so it is not possible to calc. I'm no expert, but I would say this is at least into tier 5. Note that on more than one occasion Sonic and other characters have fought enemies with one chaos emerald or more while they had none (Chaos 1-6 come to mind here)

What this means
The revalations with the Chaos Emeralds mean that all forms of Chaos as well as Emerl would be tier 5.. With one chaos emerald being tier 5, that would mean that the following tier 5 characters that Sonic has fought without any emeralds himself would be as follows:

Chaos 1

Chaos 2

Chaos 3

Chaos 4

Chaos 6

Ultimate Emerl

Several others that I'm probably forgetting

Note that Dark Gaia and Perfect Chaos were excluded as Sonic had at least some of the emeralds during both of their boss fights (Late game unleashed and mid game Generations). This means that 5-A base Sonic is FAR from an outlier. And if you say it's an outlier since it's only from two games... Explain this. All of Bomberman's tier 3 or higher feats only come from his two Nintendo 64 games, and yet that is what is used for his profile. If it's several fights across two games, it's not an outlier. Not to mention I probably forgot several.

Also, since one Emerald is tuer 5, this would also apply to the classic games. This would only effect final bosses like the Death Egg Robot and both Mecha Sonics, a large amount of Classic Sonic would still be 8-A without the emeralds. Espesially since a few Classic Sonic games don't even have the chaos emeralds. Though since the bad endings exist, this part may not be entirely valid.

Verdict
Reasons for tier 5 base Sonic:

• Several characters have fought characters with emeralds while they had none (Various characters vs Chaos 1-6, Sonic vs Emerl, Death Egg Robot vs Sonic, Mecha Sonic vs Knuckles, etc...)
• There are more than enough instances of this for this to not be an outlier

Reasons against tier 5 base Sonic:

• Attacks that are below this level (Like Infinite's star) have threatened to kill Sonic and co. Note that the size of an attack is not the end all be all for it's AP and author arrogence is likely in play here (When an author dosn't know how strong they've made a character).
• It is possible that for the planet spitting feat in Sonic Advance 3 used all seven emeralds, but there is no proof to point to this as of yet.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Splitting the entire planet into seven pieces in what was portrayed as seconds does seem like a Tier 5 feat, but I think it would only be accepted as applying to characters empowered by Chaos Emeralds.

Regardless of its consistency, Tier 5 base Sonic simply won't be accepted.

 

[ED_INFINITUM]

Yeah,it's unfortunate That someone keeps using a bee analogy for Perfect Chaos/Imperfect Dark Gaia when those "weak points" are 100% percent game mechanics & keep arbitrarily getting ignored as such.

 

[Cropfist]

Pretty sure Infinite's sun was stated to "turn the world into ashes".

 

[ShakeResounding]

^ Wouldn't that sort of energy still be in the Tier 6 range?

Besides that, as weirdly consistent as it seems, this could be a lost cause. The key proposition might not be too bad, though.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It's not really game mechanics; it's common sense that getting struck in the eye is more painful than anywhere else. And actually, Dark649 originally was one of the people who proposed Base Sonic in Adventure being 5-A. But Azathoth gave a long speech why Sonic doesn't scale to Perfect Chaos or Dark Gaia; which the majority of the staff agreed with him on that. In fact, Sonic doesn't even scale to Chaos 6 who is 5-B

That intro feat from Sonic Advance 3 was calc'd at 5-A, yes. And we saw one Chaos Emerald, yes. But there's no proof that that one Emerald was the only Emerald Eggman had. They don't even show the rest of the ship; the primary focus was Eggman activating the machine. The developers didn't have enough time to show the scenery of the whole ship or Eggman placing the other 6 emeralds in their respective containers.

More importantly, you have to consider the rest of the game and the rest of the series. We can't just use one speculative theory to upgrade the entire verse from a brief/unfinished scene. Throughout the plot of the entire game, Eggman was clearly already in possession of all 7 Chaos Emeralds in the very beginning; Sonic collecting each of the Emeralds 1 by 1 was a common occurrence in the game. There's no reason to assume Eggman only used one Emerald for that feat when he had all 7. Furthermore In Sonic Adventures 2, Eggman even with a couple Emeralds was able to only destroy part of the moon; he needed all 7 to do any more celestial damage than that.

Additionally, it seems ourlierish for just one Chaos Emerald to perform a 5-A when it's questionable for even 6 Emeralds to just be 5-B as opposed to 5-A. However you look at it, 7 Chaos Emeralds performing a 5-A feat is consistent, but overwhelmingly greater than base Sonic and thus would not scale. One Emerald performing a 5-A feat is inconsistent due to being too high for something not even 2 to 6 Emeralds can typically do regularly. Therefore, it would be an outlier and will not be used or scale to anyone. With that said, that cutscene will not be used to scale to Base Sonic or individual Emeralds regardless.

As for why Base Sonic doesn't scale to Perfect Chaos or Dark Gaia, it's simple. Base Sonic is clearly not actually on par with them. The best he could do against them is run away, and only attack if their eye is exposed. Additionally, Sonic in canon couldn't withstand a serious slamming attack from Perfect Chaos, it was only the tiny attacks way smaller than Perfect Chaos that Sonic could survive. On top of that, Chaos without Chaos Emeralds is canonically able to fight toe to toe with Knuckles or Sonic and prove a challenge. So scaling base Sonic to Perfect Chaos, would be the same as scaling base Sonic to Super Sonic, or base Metal Sonic to Metal Overlord; both of which are absurd.

Also, please stop using false equivalencies comparing different verses. There is a big difference between Sonic and Bomberman. Bomberman's verse is rather simple and cartoonish, they don't typically have big all over the place stories. Bomberman iirc, has a bunch of Planet level feats that are all super consistent and casual. Bomberman doesn't even get a scratch whenever a planet explodes in his face. As for his 3-B feats and above, those are actually more legitimate. Bomberman actually went toe to toe with The Angel of Light and Darkness and even overpowered him. Then again, I'm not the biggest Bomberman expert, but Hadou would be the best guy to ask iirc. Sonic on the other hand was never on par with Perfect Sonic or Dark Gaia. He had to find a way around it. There's a difference between defeating giant robot being taken out by battery removal and a giant robot being physically overpowered.

Before you say, "Game Mechanics," it's not that really. Eyeballs legit have a lot more pain sensitivity then let's say a tail. Tail being a weak spot is clearly game mechanics, but and eyeball is a completely different story. In fact, Mario scales to Large Star level enemies that don't even have weak points, much less the weak point not being the eyes when for ones that do. Bomber Man also doesn't even have the whole "Weak point" shenanigans; so that's also a moot point.

Lastly, @Smashor, I don't mean any sort of offence towards you, but I do have to be honest and point out quite a few things. First of all, quite a few users, staff included have been getting quite tired the attitude you tend to showcase on most of these threads. I can understand that calling the previous thread "A Shitstorm" seems a bit uncalled for, but Cal did have good points. Additionally, you really shouldn't sound so demanding towards the staff. We fully understand that RL comes first, but removing a thread to demand staff members not giving input is really not the way to go. We have a rule mentioning that it's strongly ill advised for regular users to remove threads that don't go their way. Staff members are allowed to restore removed threads to give input, as it's our job to give serious debates among other things. And don't accuse us as having "Personal Bias" either. We have nothing against Sonic, and some of us actually really like Sonic. We go by what's both consistent, canon, and legitimate though. Who we like or dislike has absolutely zero correlation for how high or low we rate characters.

This is already brought up, discussed, and debunked multiple times which is the reason we make these sort of discussion rules in the first place. We have literally not seen anything new brought to this table. When a previous thread gets closed, that usually means the topic is concluded and new threads should either have new things or not be made. Either relook at the thread and read all the previous threads before creating a new one, or politely ask one of the Knowledgeable Members List on the Sonic's section on message walls why they're rated in such a way. Don't just keep creating the same thread and demanding each time to never close it.

With that being said, I will keep this thread open, because I would like to hear more staff input, but most of them are going to pretty much say the same things I said or they said on previous threads either way. Base Sonic is staying High 6-A, and I'm positive there's going to be a new discussion rule after this thread is concluded. As for me, I actually do enjoy the Sonic franchise, and I don't have any "Personal bias" against this. But @Dark649 is one of our Sonic experts here, so it's best to listen to him. I'm also sure other staff members will say the same thing.

That's all I'm going to say on this thread for now, since I'm might get some sleep soon. Peace out, and remember to stay on topic and mind your tone. Thank you.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Dat essay tho.

Even if I disagree with some of it I guess that addresses this thread's points pretty effectively.

 

[Dark649]

Agree with Dragon, also its the third time this was discussed so i had to make a Discussion Rule about it.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Dragon pretty much covered everything, and the Discussion Rule probably solidifies that this topic is permanently concluded.

Shouldn't this be closed?

 

[Dark649]

Yes.