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Some sort of Time Stop for Zangetsu (Quincy Spirit/Yhwach soul)
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It's more like they switched settings by doing that which is a common Shonen Troupe
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Not as actual physical beings that can suddenly interact in the outside world with anyone besides the soul reaper who wields them (in this case, Zangetsu with Ichigo).IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
If this was even remotely true, then Yoruichi wouldnt have explicitly needed that device from Urahara for Zangetsu to physically participate with Ichigo in Bankai Training. For a limited time i'll add. Zangetsu would have just simply manefisted by himself and made the device's purpose completely pointless.
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Not if the "mind" version of the user does it. It's simple mental portal creation, especially since it led to a place Ichigo's mind couldnt yet get to on his own.Zzsax said:
Besides, you'd be surprised by what the mental projection of characters can do but thats beside the point.
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Not as actual physical beings that can suddenly interact in the outside world with anyone besides the soul reaper who wields them (in this case, Zangetsu with Ichigo).
If this was even remotely true, then Yoruichi wouldnt have explicitly needed that device from Urahara for Zangetsu to physically participate with Ichigo in Bankai Training. For a limited time i'll add. Zangetsu would have just simply manefisted by himself and made the device's purpose completely pointless.
Zangetsu doesn't need the device,he is not completely a zanpakutou like the rest spirit as youruichi and Urahara thought,thats why the quincy shadow portal is so relevant in this argument,
If I remember correctly zangetsu or any other spirit aren't exactly happy to teach bankai via that method,while bypassing the ten years bonding
If this was even remotely true, then Yoruichi wouldnt have explicitly needed that device from Urahara for Zangetsu to physically participate with Ichigo in Bankai Training. For a limited time i'll add. Zangetsu would have just simply manefisted by himself and made the device's purpose completely pointless.
Zangetsu doesn't need the device,he is not completely a zanpakutou like the rest spirit as youruichi and Urahara thought,thats why the quincy shadow portal is so relevant in this argument,
If I remember correctly zangetsu or any other spirit aren't exactly happy to teach bankai via that method,while bypassing the ten years bonding
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Not if the "mind" version of the user does it. It's simple mental portal creation, especially since it led to a place Ichigo's mind couldnt yet get to on his own.
Besides, you'd be surprised by what the mental projection of characters can do but thats beside the point.
Except this isnt ichigo's mind or beings fabricated by his mind,this is a 1000 year old quincy using Quincy techniques that ichigo knows nothing about
Besides, you'd be surprised by what the mental projection of characters can do but thats beside the point.
Except this isnt ichigo's mind or beings fabricated by his mind,this is a 1000 year old quincy using Quincy techniques that ichigo knows nothing about
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Only technique I saw was shadow portal
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Which is a Quincy technique Ichigo knows nothing about.
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>Not a complete Zanpakuto like the rest
That...doesn't counter my argument. In fact, it goes even more in my favor here. Why would a incomplete/partial Zanpakuto be able to do, what other complete/full Zanpakuto can never do, solo? That makes even less sense.
And it still doesn't cover why Zangetsu wouldn't have just come to the outside world through the Quincy Shadow (or simply just drag Ichigo back to his inner world) if he blatently didn't need that device's assistance to? Especially since that Device had a time limit on how long Zanpakuto spirits stay in the outside world, Zangetsu's Quincy portal wouldve easily overided that limitation and with the situation they were in to master Bankai ASAP to save Rukia, he would've done it if he could. He didn't.
That...doesn't counter my argument. In fact, it goes even more in my favor here. Why would a incomplete/partial Zanpakuto be able to do, what other complete/full Zanpakuto can never do, solo? That makes even less sense.
And it still doesn't cover why Zangetsu wouldn't have just come to the outside world through the Quincy Shadow (or simply just drag Ichigo back to his inner world) if he blatently didn't need that device's assistance to? Especially since that Device had a time limit on how long Zanpakuto spirits stay in the outside world, Zangetsu's Quincy portal wouldve easily overided that limitation and with the situation they were in to master Bankai ASAP to save Rukia, he would've done it if he could. He didn't.
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For the bolded part, what does that have anything to do with this here?Zzsax said:
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@Prof
He didn't want to,zanpakutou spirits aren't fond of that technique,the only reason zangetsu intervened with blut and Quincy portal was because he would have died if he didn't.
Zangetsu is two beings,his shinigami and Quincy power merged,he is more not less than a regular Zanpakutou spirit
He didn't want to,zanpakutou spirits aren't fond of that technique,the only reason zangetsu intervened with blut and Quincy portal was because he would have died if he didn't.
Zangetsu is two beings,his shinigami and Quincy power merged,he is more not less than a regular Zanpakutou spirit
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Could ask you the same since your posts seem to be about why Kubo made this decision instead of that.
Why didn't Zangetsu just give Ichigo blut every fight and he could just face roll every battle never getting hurt?
Why didn't Zangetsu just give Ichigo blut every fight and he could just face roll every battle never getting hurt?
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@Zzsax
And yet he wouldn't intervene when Ichigos trying to use his Bankai Training to face even stronger opponents than Kenpachi (who Zangetsu intervene with) that could very well kill him (Byakuya, other captains) in an attempt to save his friend? That reasoning seems extremely strange. But either way, your missing my point.
My argument had nothing to do with Zangetsu intervening in battle with the quincy portal but extending and simplifying the method of Bankai Training with the quincy portal without needing that device. Plus. I don't recall at all anything about Zanpakuto spirits not liking that method for Bankai training.
@Sigurd
False Equivalncy. Your argument is about giving Ichigo a specific power to help him in a fight. My argument is about Yhwach making life much easier by just going through a simple portal into the real world to extend Bankai training without needing to use Urahara's device for the training which had considerable limits on it. Not the same thing whatsoever.
Also, im going to bring this up again since it keeps getting ignored. Inner Worlds for Soul Reapers and their Zanpakuto are purely inside the former's minds, hence it being inner. It's a mindscape world for the 2 to mentally interact. For the side thats arguing what Zangetsu and Ichigo did was physically real, and not just inside Ichigo's head, your literally admitting in the process that Ichigo's Inner World is an actual real reality that can be physically accessed. Unless we're going to sit here and argue Soul Reapers are walking embodiments of actual pocket dimensions, the mechanics of how an inner world works completely contradicts why this scene with the Quincy Portal isn't real.
And yet he wouldn't intervene when Ichigos trying to use his Bankai Training to face even stronger opponents than Kenpachi (who Zangetsu intervene with) that could very well kill him (Byakuya, other captains) in an attempt to save his friend? That reasoning seems extremely strange. But either way, your missing my point.
My argument had nothing to do with Zangetsu intervening in battle with the quincy portal but extending and simplifying the method of Bankai Training with the quincy portal without needing that device. Plus. I don't recall at all anything about Zanpakuto spirits not liking that method for Bankai training.
@Sigurd
False Equivalncy. Your argument is about giving Ichigo a specific power to help him in a fight. My argument is about Yhwach making life much easier by just going through a simple portal into the real world to extend Bankai training without needing to use Urahara's device for the training which had considerable limits on it. Not the same thing whatsoever.
Also, im going to bring this up again since it keeps getting ignored. Inner Worlds for Soul Reapers and their Zanpakuto are purely inside the former's minds, hence it being inner. It's a mindscape world for the 2 to mentally interact. For the side thats arguing what Zangetsu and Ichigo did was physically real, and not just inside Ichigo's head, your literally admitting in the process that Ichigo's Inner World is an actual real reality that can be physically accessed. Unless we're going to sit here and argue Soul Reapers are walking embodiments of actual pocket dimensions, the mechanics of how an inner world works completely contradicts why this scene with the Quincy Portal isn't real.
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Completely irrelevant.Zzsax said:
A technique being used =/= it being real. Unless of course Naruto fighting Kurama within himself, using stuff like Sage Mode and Rasengan, suddenly makes that space real too and Naruto's a walking pocket space? People using techniques as astral or "mind forms" within their subconscious happens all the time, it doesnt make one shred of it real at all.
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Zanpakuto can physically manifest. Zangetsu does it, Yachiru does it, Zabimaru does it etc.ProfessorKukui4Life said:
The issue is control, Ichigo can't manually do it nor maintain it, thus why a device was needed for him. Renji was able to manifest Zabimaru without the device to attain Bankai.
Literally the whole point of Bankai training is learning to manifest your Zanpakuto spirit first, the device is a cheat system.
Seriously, this argument is terrible and baseless when you take in context.
It's obviously a trope scene, you guys are reading into it too much and using arguments that make no sense to support it or go against it.
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>Zangetsu and Zabimaru
And again, those weren't physical manefistations, they are simply appearing to talk to their Soul Reaper partners. Thats it. The only time Zangetsu fully manefested and was able to be seen, heard, and talked to by anyone other than Ichigo was when he materialized using Urahara's device for Bankai training.
Yachiru is the only one who has proven to do fully manefest on her own but considering she's a Zanpakuto spirit who had her own Zanpakuto, she is very easily a special unique case.
>Ichigo can't manually do it nor maintain it
Since when was Ichigo forcefully calling Zangetsu to their world a part of Bankai training? That was never mentioned at all from what I recall. And Renji is a very bad example since he was in a state of near death/extreme exhaust, Zabimaru appeared to him by surprise. Renji wasn't actively doing that, Zabimaru came to him on its own.
Even if that was the case, that still doesn't explain why Zangetsu wouldnt have just fully manefested on his own instead of going through the device to save time and avoid limits from it. Ichigo wasn't attemtping to call Zangetsu's spirit form on his own throughout any part of that training.
And again, those weren't physical manefistations, they are simply appearing to talk to their Soul Reaper partners. Thats it. The only time Zangetsu fully manefested and was able to be seen, heard, and talked to by anyone other than Ichigo was when he materialized using Urahara's device for Bankai training.
Yachiru is the only one who has proven to do fully manefest on her own but considering she's a Zanpakuto spirit who had her own Zanpakuto, she is very easily a special unique case.
>Ichigo can't manually do it nor maintain it
Since when was Ichigo forcefully calling Zangetsu to their world a part of Bankai training? That was never mentioned at all from what I recall. And Renji is a very bad example since he was in a state of near death/extreme exhaust, Zabimaru appeared to him by surprise. Renji wasn't actively doing that, Zabimaru came to him on its own.
Even if that was the case, that still doesn't explain why Zangetsu wouldnt have just fully manefested on his own instead of going through the device to save time and avoid limits from it. Ichigo wasn't attemtping to call Zangetsu's spirit form on his own throughout any part of that training.
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Zabimaru physically manifests twice. With Renji in prison and with Renji in Urahara's training cave. This point holds no ground and makes no sense.
Manifesting your Zanpakuto and working with your Zanpakuto is a step towards Bankai. Its an inherent part to Bankai training. The device serves as a cheat system to speed that process up for those who can manually do it or cant do it for long. It takes Reiryoku to maintain a Zanpakuto spirit, Ichigo was a baby novice at such control in SS Arc, there's no way he could do the training without the device.
These arguments are terrible and there are two blatant ways to disprove it that everyone keeps walking over. Either way, its such a trope as well.
Manifesting your Zanpakuto and working with your Zanpakuto is a step towards Bankai. Its an inherent part to Bankai training. The device serves as a cheat system to speed that process up for those who can manually do it or cant do it for long. It takes Reiryoku to maintain a Zanpakuto spirit, Ichigo was a baby novice at such control in SS Arc, there's no way he could do the training without the device.
These arguments are terrible and there are two blatant ways to disprove it that everyone keeps walking over. Either way, its such a trope as well.
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Doesnt prove Renji is the one actively summoning Zabimaru instead of the latter coming on its own.
Thats not what I was asking. I know that having your Zanpakuto spirit be materialized in the outside world is a requirement for Bankai, thats not the issue. The problem here is why are we instantly assuming that the Soul Reaper themselves are the ones who need to actively and forcefully drag the Zanpakuto spirit out of their Inner World? Thats is never stated to be the case. All we know is that the Zapakuto spirit is needed to come forth, not on how and who is summoning it to acomplish that requirement. There's no evidence of that rather than just Ichigo or the soul reaper establishing mental communication with their Zanpakuto spirit and then the latter comes on their own accord.
Thats not what I was asking. I know that having your Zanpakuto spirit be materialized in the outside world is a requirement for Bankai, thats not the issue. The problem here is why are we instantly assuming that the Soul Reaper themselves are the ones who need to actively and forcefully drag the Zanpakuto spirit out of their Inner World? Thats is never stated to be the case. All we know is that the Zapakuto spirit is needed to come forth, not on how and who is summoning it to acomplish that requirement. There's no evidence of that rather than just Ichigo or the soul reaper establishing mental communication with their Zanpakuto spirit and then the latter comes on their own accord.
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I'll continue this later as its almost 6 am on my end and I sadly havent been able to sleep yet.
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@PROF
Okay,Naruto and Bleach are two different series about two different things,compatisom will only serve to confuse.
Secondly yeah,the zanpakutou spirits aren't fond of Urahara's technique,according to youruichi they might get so pissed they'd try to murder you.
A technique being used =/= it being real.
This would have been accurate if ichigo didn't note that the particular technique saved his life..how that technique saved his life is what we are discussing not if the technique was real or not..because it's already confirmed real
The zanpakutou spirits live in an actual reality,yep in a real space and not in ichigo's mind,it is constantly referred to as inner world not inner mind because Zanpakutou spirits do have explicit personalities and Are sentient beings that are sealed in Asauchi not in the shinigani's body or mind..shinigami's have to go into their sealed swords to talk their zanpakutou spirits not into their minds,if they aren't with their zanpakutou they can't do shit,this is where shinigami differ greatly from Jinchuuurikis as people keep drawing comparisons.
I do agree it's similar to Astral projection though...but just because someone uses astral to get there that doesn't make the space "not real " or in the persons head
What Bankai does is bring the spirit from that inner world which the spirits live in to the physical world which shinigami lives in
Sorry for bringing a naruto comparison but unlike in Naruto's case where parts of Kurama chakra can attack Naruto,for example of kinkaku can attack Naruto..the bonds of Zanpakutou spirits run deeper and are way more sentient, as hyorinmaru can't attack hyorinmaru.
Okay,Naruto and Bleach are two different series about two different things,compatisom will only serve to confuse.
Secondly yeah,the zanpakutou spirits aren't fond of Urahara's technique,according to youruichi they might get so pissed they'd try to murder you.
A technique being used =/= it being real.
This would have been accurate if ichigo didn't note that the particular technique saved his life..how that technique saved his life is what we are discussing not if the technique was real or not..because it's already confirmed real
The zanpakutou spirits live in an actual reality,yep in a real space and not in ichigo's mind,it is constantly referred to as inner world not inner mind because Zanpakutou spirits do have explicit personalities and Are sentient beings that are sealed in Asauchi not in the shinigani's body or mind..shinigami's have to go into their sealed swords to talk their zanpakutou spirits not into their minds,if they aren't with their zanpakutou they can't do shit,this is where shinigami differ greatly from Jinchuuurikis as people keep drawing comparisons.
I do agree it's similar to Astral projection though...but just because someone uses astral to get there that doesn't make the space "not real " or in the persons head
What Bankai does is bring the spirit from that inner world which the spirits live in to the physical world which shinigami lives in
Sorry for bringing a naruto comparison but unlike in Naruto's case where parts of Kurama chakra can attack Naruto,for example of kinkaku can attack Naruto..the bonds of Zanpakutou spirits run deeper and are way more sentient, as hyorinmaru can't attack hyorinmaru.
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"Sorry for bringing a naruto comparison but unlike in Naruto's case where parts of Kurama chakra can attack Naruto,for example of kinkaku can attack Naruto..the bonds of Zanpakutou spirits run deeper and are way more sentient, as hyorinmaru can't attack hyorinmaru."
Heh. I bet the quincy's Bankai stealing tech has something to say here.
Heh. I bet the quincy's Bankai stealing tech has something to say here.
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@pachi
That's exactly the scenario am talking about,after hyorinmaru got stolen,hitsugaya couldn't communicate with him anymore,his spirit was totally gone,however hitsugaya could still use the shikai abilities
Later on when hyorinmaru was returning,cang du and hitsugaya kinda had half of hyorinmaru each,cang du couldn't attack hitsugaya with ice as hyorinmaru wouldn't let him.then hitsugaya comments "a bankai cant attack itself"
That's exactly the scenario am talking about,after hyorinmaru got stolen,hitsugaya couldn't communicate with him anymore,his spirit was totally gone,however hitsugaya could still use the shikai abilities
Later on when hyorinmaru was returning,cang du and hitsugaya kinda had half of hyorinmaru each,cang du couldn't attack hitsugaya with ice as hyorinmaru wouldn't let him.then hitsugaya comments "a bankai cant attack itself"
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No.
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should prob close it
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