Some question for the canonicity of the scan for dragonball new tier

[eibwen]

I was so incredibly iffy about the tiering so I gave a check for myself( and here if you want https://vsbattles.com/threads/tier-...eRsxmFSbSX4_OCImxaz7mVcniZRAFTd_VMB-zEtk-IN64 ), and then I saw this

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So here's the problem
1 Why do we take a scene from dragon ball Z that doesnt appear in the original dragon ball manga for scan? since when does it a canon material?
2 The canonicity can be justify through the line " daizenshuu states... ". However, there were 7 daizenshuu in dragon ball, just daizenshuu in general doesnt mean anything, thus after researching, I've found this which leads to
3 the "all time were creates there" was found in this https://magikarp46.com/dragonball/g...8deZ8hW9lS5XdQfr5uprbv8FS6UebAfz7yn-qTPUqUNpw , to which I dont see why is it canon, thats morelike a fanmade for the community, since the part that was actually from daizenshuu is noted down
Our dear scan here doesnt have any notion from where its coming from

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Can someone give me a canonicity check?

 

[Hasty12345]

To the best of my knowledge, we treat the anime and manga as having the same cosmology since they're both based on Toriyama's notes/map etc. Furthermore, we treat the anime and manga as separate timelines within the same cosmology, so their macrocosms should be the same.

I might be off on a detail or two but that's the general idea.

 

[eibwen]

To the best of my knowledge, we treat the anime and manga as having the same cosmology since they're both based on Toriyama's notes/map etc.

Sure, just... what does the creates all of time based on tho?

 

[Hasty12345]

Sure, just... what does the creates all of time based on tho?

not sure, that website does look fanmade and I don't know why we're not using scans from the daizenshu(s) itself.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Oh, now it makes sense. I also have asked myself when I read it, because it does not sound a line from narrative but fan-made expression.

not sure, that website does look fanmade and I don't know why we're not using scans from the daizenshu(s) itself.

@ProfectusInfinity May we get your opinion on this?

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Guys, there's a whole blog with anime statements on the Time Room.

 

[eibwen]

Guys, there's a whole blog with anime statements on the Time Room.

Thats just weird tbh, I thought only the original manga and most of kai are canon is well-known thing

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Thats just weird tbh, I thought only the original manga and most of kai are canon is well-known thing

Cosmologies are treated as the same here.

Game verse also uses anime stuff if that helpls

 

[ImmortalDread]

Guys, there's a whole blog with anime statements on the Time Room.

Not the point. It's a cosmology page. We only use canon statements or materials to explain the structure of the verse. The fact that he used a whole statement from a fan-made page is false and needs to be removed.

However, I would assume he did not do it intentionally or thought it's fine to use someone else's interpretation, so I won't be judging too quickly.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Cosmology is accepted as composite, so we use things from anime and manga.

Not the point. It's a cosmology page. We only use canon statements or materials to explain the structure of the verse. The fact that he used a whole statement from a fan-made page is false and needs to be removed.

However, I would assume he did not do it intentionally or thought it's fine to use someone else's interpretation, so I won't be judging too quickly.

Honestly, I don't like this, especially when Null made the raws of all the daizenshuu available to us. But the Time Room that gives us tier 1 had all of its statements in the anime, this is shown on the blog. Other additional things like "separated by space and time", "different temporal dimension", all of this is present in the anime and manga.

 

[eibwen]

Honestly, I don't like this, especially when Null made the raws of all the daizenshuu available to us. But the Time Room that gives us tier 1 had all of its statements in the anime, this is shown on the blog.

yeah, this is dragon ball Z only, it did not exist in dragon ball kai nor did it in the OG dragon ball
So why did it canon exactly? isnt the entire purpose of dragon ball kai is to remove filler?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

yeah, this is dragon ball Z only, it did not exist in dragon ball kai nor did it in the OG dragon ball
So why did it canon exactly? isnt the entire purpose of dragon ball kai is to remove filler?

Cosmology is accepted as composite, so we use things from anime and manga.

To the best of my knowledge, we treat the anime and manga as having the same cosmology since they're both based on Toriyama's notes/map etc. Furthermore, we treat the anime and manga as separate timelines within the same cosmology, so their macrocosms should be the same.

Furthermore, the time room/pendulum room appeared in both the DB OG and DBZ anime. This is all shown on the Blog.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Not the point. It's a cosmology page. We only use canon statements or materials to explain the structure of the verse. The fact that he used a whole statement from a fan-made page is false and needs to be removed.

However, I would assume he did not do it intentionally or thought it's fine to use someone else's interpretation, so I won't be judging too quickly.

There is nothing made by fans, it is just canon material used and guides that Akira Toriyama made about the multiverse, All Dragon Ball works are composed and use the same cosmology.

 

[eibwen]

Furthermore, the time room/pendulum room appeared in both the DB OG and DBZ anime. This is all shown on the Blog.

well, lets just focusing on this first
I'm confused, what is the "OG DB" we're talking about here? the blog have the apearance in the dbz anime, not in the original manga no? as I was literally taking picture of the blog in my original post

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

This translation that is there is made from the guides that are canon to the multiverse.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

well, lets just focusing on this first
I'm confused, what is the "OG DB" we're talking about here? the blog have the apearance in the dbz anime, not in the original manga no? as I was literally taking picture of the blog in my original post

The Time Rom/pendulum room appeared in the Dragon Ball and Dragon ball z anime. There is literally a compilation of statements about this room on the blog using only photos from the anime. Without the external sites thing.

Time Room Statements

• All of space-time across past/present/future is created here.
• Genuinely sends you back in time.
• Daizenshuu states that all time periods are created there (further confirming that the first statement is literal).

Pendulum Room Statements

• Past/present/future intersect here.
• Takes your mind on a journey.
• Daizenshuu states it allows you to time travel via your mind

 

[eibwen]

it is just canon material used and guides that Akira Toriyama made about the multiverse

Sure, source on this one?

This translation that is there is made from the guides that are canon to the multiverse.

now I'm pretty sure you didnt go through the original link for that one, cus that entire page was not, just translation

 

[Hasty12345]

This translation that is there is made from the guides that are canon to the multiverse.

If the actual scans aren’t on the page we need to find them and make them available so we don’t have to trust a website with the name “magikarp” on DB translations

 

[JirensMom]

The Cosmologies have been composited(Gt, Super).

Gt is canon but it takes place in a different dimension.

Gt is also included in Toei’s Db Timeline.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

If the actual scans aren’t on the page we need to find them and make them available so we don’t have to trust a website with the name “magikarp” on DB translations

They should have included, I always tell them to include everything they have about cosmology, but they are desperate, this gives even more of an opportunity to those who don't like it.

 

[Hasty12345]

They should have included, I always tell them to include everything they have about cosmology, but they are desperate, this gives even more of an opportunity to those who don't like it.

It’s just a minor fix, nothing to worry about

 

[eibwen]

The Time Rom/pendulum room appeared in the Dragon Ball and Dragon ball z anime. There is literally a compilation of statements about this room on the blog using only photos from the anime. Without the external sites thing.

so its not coming from the original manga then
so... just a few question, isnt the idea of the time room itself is 1 fking big contradiction to the plot of dragon ball itself? like what happened to the "no time travel" rule of the gods?

 

[JirensMom]

so its not coming from the original manga then
so... just a few question, isnt the idea of the time room itself is 1 fking big contradiction to the plot of dragon ball itself? like what happened to the "no time travel" rule of the gods?

Not really? Beerus and Whis are the only people who try to enforce that rule.(Tbh they’re the only people who know about that rule in U7)
Shin is probably clueless(as always) and Kami is a lower god

Considering we see time travel done several times in super alone…


Also doesn’t Beerus technically break that rule by creating another timeline which is something that rule is specifically supposed to prevent?

And Final thing. FT Zeno existing kinda makes that rule a huge joke

 

[Killerdrone123]

so its not coming from the original manga then
so... just a few question, isnt the idea of the time room itself is 1 fking big contradiction to the plot of dragon ball itself? like what happened to the "no time travel" rule of the gods?

The no time travel rule of the gods only apply for going in another timeline for eg trunks timeline not past,present,future of the universe also definitely kami and popo aren't aware of this rule

 

[Killerdrone123]

Also the cosmology is composited we can take anime statements to scale manga to

 

[Vietthai96]

So we move to, it isn't good for plot thing kind of debunk then, like what???

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

So we move to, it isn't good for plot thing kind of debunk then, like what???

That can be better structured I think.

 

[eibwen]

Not really? Beerus and Whis are the only people who try to enforce that rule.(Tbh they’re the only people who know about that rule in U7)
Shin is probably clueless(as always) and Kami is a lower god

Also considering we see time travel done several times in super alone…

yes, shin and the others might not know anything about the rules, but theres no way beerus and whis didnt know anything about a super incredibly OP room right? and leave it alone at that? and also, theres deeeefinitely no way, that when beerus and whis mentioned that rules to the Z fighter, absolutely no one remember about that one room that can do everything time related right? its not like ppl like to risk their lives or smth

The no time travel rule of the gods only apply for going in another timeline for eg trunks timeline not past,present,future of the universe also definitely kami and popo aren't aware of this rule

yeah, as if whis- or the angel didnt have that one rule forcing them NOT to mess with time

 

[eibwen]

So we move to, it isn't good for plot thing kind of debunk then, like what???

its contradicting heavily, and a canon material shouldnt have that kind of contradiction, like whats the point of deviding canon and the rest then? just apply whatever

 

[Killerdrone123]

yes, shin and the others might not know anything about the rules, but theres no way beerus and whis didnt know anything about a super incredibly OP room right? and leave it alone at that? and also, theres deeeefinitely no way, that when beerus and whis mentioned that rules to the Z fighter, absolutely no one remember about that one room that can do everything time related right? its not like ppl like to risk their lives or smth

yeah, as if whis- or the angel didnt have that one rule forcing them NOT to mess with time

Brother when they are saying dont mess with time they are often talking about the overarching timeline and you are making an issue of a plot point which was in og db when toriyama didn't even have thought about whis or beerus and this can simply be explained by saying that they don't know about the rules

 

[JirensMom]

yeah, as if whis- or the angel didnt have that one rule forcing them NOT to mess with time

Doesn’t Whis straight up time travel at the end of FT arc?

He takes Trunks to a past version of his timeline

 

[eibwen]

Brother when they are saying dont mess with time they are often talking about the overarching timeline and you are making an issue of a plot point point which was in of db when toriyama didn't even have thought about whis or beerus and this can simply be explained by saying that they don't know about the rules

almost as if youre saying whats back then really shouldnt be used for scaling

 

[Killerdrone123]

almost as if youre saying whats back then really shouldnt be used for scaling

What?all I am saying is that toriyama didn't even thought about creating whis during the period of og db how are you making an issue on something which is way back in the series

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

What?all I am saying is that toriyama didn't even thought about creating whis during the period of og db how are you making an issue on something which is way back in the series

By his logic,Time Rings shouldn't exist.

 

[Hasty12345]

His questions have been answered, if he wants to change something he should make a CRT.

 

[eibwen]

What?all I am saying is that toriyama didn't even thought about creating whis during the period of og db how are you making an issue on something which is way back in the series

simple logic really, why are you forcing a unthinking for future content relation, in to a future content scaling??

 

[Vietthai96]

Ah yes, now when we can't debunk the scan anymore, let argue "but plot didn't make sense" to handwaving a scan away without the need to

its contradicting heavily, and a canon material shouldnt have that kind of contradiction, like whats the point of deviding canon and the rest then? just apply whatever

1. You need to know that there are always things that was introduced later on in the series, and that Room didn't contradict anything, it was used for Time Travel and then later we have rule that forbidden from time travel in DBS.

2. The rule doesn't contradict anything, because it is a room with all of time in it, if anything, rule is for person not for room, no one created said room, it is a part of cosmology structure, so Whis or Beerus are aware of it mean nothing, they can't do anything, cause it is a part of nature, part of cosmology

3. The rule is shit anyway, cause nothing happen to the other universe that developed time machine way before Bulma did, and then Beerus and Whis just casually shit on time without consequense, such as Whis time travel to the future and ask future Beerus to take care of Zamasu/Black, or Whis constantly rewind time that could impact history

4. Assume that they should aware of the Room and destroy it, it do more damage actually, it is a room contain all of past, present and future in it, blow it up mean you shit on your own history, blow everything up, cause even bigger consequense since they just destroyed all of past, present and future of the world they are living in

So wrap up, your argument that, but plot it didn't make sense is moot

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Oh, now it makes sense. I also have asked myself when I read it, because it does not sound a line from narrative but fan-made expression.


@ProfectusInfinity May we get your opinion on this?

After a bit of research, I've found that basically all the daizenshuu scans with that distinct blue background come from this site. Anyway, since it's supporting evidence at best that holds little real impact, I might as well just remove it until I can find raws.

 

[eibwen]

By his logic,Time Rings shouldn't exist.

my logic is, time travel or time related shouldnt be as freely as shown, all the time travel in dbs used by the god are all serves a purpose, since the justifycation is belong to the angels so those example in dbs holds no counter in mine

Ah yes, now when we can't debunk the scan anymore, let argue "but plot didn't make sense" to handwaving a scan away without the need to

thats what we're arguing now, im not force you to do anything without logic?

1. You need to know that there are always things that was introduced later on in the series, and that Room didn't contradict anything, it was used for Time Travel and then later we have rule that forbidden from time travel in DBS.

freely used at that

3. The rule is shit anyway, cause nothing happen to the other universe that developed time machine way before Bulma did, and then Beerus and Whis just casually shit on time without consequense, such as Whis time travel to the future and ask future Beerus to take care of Zamasu/Black, or Whis constantly rewind time that could impact history

yea, they are the one making the rules, wdym?

2. The rule doesn't contradict anything, because it is a room with all of time in it, if anything, rule is for person not for room, no one created said room, it is a part of cosmology structure, so Whis or Beerus are aware of it mean nothing, they can't do anything, cause it is a part of nature, part of cosmology
4. Assume that they should aware of the Room and destroy it, it do more damage actually, it is a room contain all of past, present and future in it, blow it up mean you shit on your own history, blow everything up, cause even bigger consequense since they just destroyed all of past, present and future of the world they are living in

destroying ***** isnt the only ways to handle problems y'know? how about just banned them from ever getting close to that thing?
and shouldnt that be creates all of time? what does it "holds"? there werent even a moment that the room was indestructible consider how many times earth blew up

So wrap up, your argument that, but plot it didn't make sense is moot

a lil bit tilt here?

 

[eibwen]

imagion the talk of cosmology of any gods ever, did not mention that one thing creates all else