Some Minecraft Revisions (Tier 2 and up Edition)

[Antvasima]

No, both sides still seem to be debating.

Okay.

 

[ZetaMarishi]

Im'ma be honest, I'm still in agreement for Low 1-C (5D) Player and Entities. Just because it's an out of nowhere twist doesn't mean it can't be used. It'd be the same thing if some novel came out that focuses more on Tier 8, Tier 7, and Tier 6, and then in the last chapter a Tier 1 entity pops in to talk, and it's made blatantly obvious that it's a Tier 1 entity.

Or like a lot of Light Novels who just decide "Let's just buff characters massively in the final novel out of nowhere".

This really do be looking like people are split because it's a 'meme block game' and find the idea of it being strong ridiculous.

 

[FinePoint]

This is the interview in question.
"JG: The word "dream" gets used, but it's really a story about the dream of a game, and the dream of life. It's dream as metaphor. I love the strangeness that comes when people get so lost in a game that the game becomes the world. Because you do get lost like that. Especially in something like Minecraft, that's so endless. You're actually startled to come back into your life at the end of it. So I wanted to play with that moment, where you're between two worlds, and for a short little period you're not sure which one is more real.

"

Certainly. They do not apply here.

Apologies, I was simply listing examples. My overall point was that even if the poem was technically canon we do not need to accept it.
As for your other points: there is interpretation as to whether the poem is literal or not. The writer suggests heavily it's a metaphorical poem but some may interpret the poem literally regardless.

The exact request given by Notch was this: "Silly over-the-top out-of-nowhere text."

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the explanation. It seems like we should close this thread then.

 

[Bobsican]

Thank you for the explanation. It seems like we should close this thread then.

Not yet, if this gets declined a page or two need to be removed from what I'm looking.

 

[Livinmeme]

This is the interview in question.
"JG: The word "dream" gets used, but it's really a story about the dream of a game, and the dream of life. It's dream as metaphor. I love the strangeness that comes when people get so lost in a game that the game becomes the world. Because you do get lost like that. Especially in something like Minecraft, that's so endless. You're actually startled to come back into your life at the end of it. So I wanted to play with that moment, where you're between two worlds, and for a short little period you're not sure which one is more real.

"



Apologies, I was simply listing examples. My overall point was that even if the poem was technically canon we do not need to accept it.
As for your other points: there is interpretation as to whether the poem is literal or not. The writer suggests heavily it's a metaphorical poem but some may interpret the poem literally regardless.

The exact request given by Notch was this: "Silly over-the-top out-of-nowhere text."

The poem has some obvious things like dream and the player seeing the game as fiction

also the argument of "it has nothing to do with the game" was alredy debunked and just because the creator says it came out of nowhere doesnt mean the feat is invalid like Tenguen toppa gurren laggan brings out of nowhere brail multiverse out of nowhere

 

[Leotamer]

So an author stating what their story's symbolism is, is now grounds for the removal of the page?

That is the precedent being set by using that quote to argue for removal.

He isn't saying it isnt true in-universe, he is saying that it is fiction and he was trying to play with the themes of reality/unreality. It being fiction is not the argument in contention.

 

[manu_zarri]

This is the interview in question.
"JG: The word "dream" gets used, but it's really a story about the dream of a game, and the dream of life. It's dream as metaphor. I love the strangeness that comes when people get so lost in a game that the game becomes the world. Because you do get lost like that. Especially in something like Minecraft, that's so endless. You're actually startled to come back into your life at the end of it. So I wanted to play with that moment, where you're between two worlds, and for a short little period you're not sure which one is more real.

"

Im pretty sure we aren't using the Dreams thing for the upgrade, but instead the reallity-fiction thing. and before someone agrue, no, it really wasn't refering to the metaphor dreams

 

[Livinmeme]

Im pretty sure we aren't using the Dreams thing for the upgrade, but instead the reallity-fiction thing

yep that we were using the player seing as fiction and the entities seing the player as fiction probally? as the main argument for Low 1-C

 

[Pepsiman25th]

was it accepted or rejected?

 

[FinePoint]

Im pretty sure we aren't using the Dreams thing for the upgrade, but instead the reallity-fiction thing. and before someone agrue, no, it really wasn't refering to the metaphor dreams

I hear you, but if a major portion of the poem is metaphorical it brings into question the rest of it.
In addition, Notch's response to the submission was that it reflected how he felt. Doesn't it seem strange to you that he said "feel", rather than saying it was accurate? The statement makes a lot more sense if the poem is metaphorical.

When I said earlier that the poem felt very out of place I meant in terms of taking it literally. If taken metaphorically as a representation of the way we feel when we create our own worlds in video games, then it's actually very fitting.

 

[Livinmeme]

I hear you, but if a major portion of the poem is metaphorical it brings into question the rest of it.
In addition, Notch's response to the submission was that it reflected how he felt. Doesn't it seem strange to you that he said "feel", rather than saying it was accurate? The statement makes a lot more sense if the poem is metaphorical.

When I said earlier that the poem felt very out of place I meant in terms of taking it literally. If taken metaphorically as a representation of the way we feel when we create our own worlds in video games, then it's actually very fitting.

no? just because parts of the poem are kinda subjective doesnt mean everything is subjective we are refearing to the player seeing minecraft as fiction who is pretty obvious and is pretty much the entire part of the poem

 

[Leotamer]

I hear you, but if a major portion of the poem is metaphorical it brings into question the rest of it.
In addition, Notch's response to the submission was that it reflected how he felt. Doesn't it seem strange to you that he said "feel", rather than saying it was accurate? The statement makes a lot more sense if the poem is metaphorical.

When I said earlier that the poem felt very out of place I meant in terms of taking it literally. If taken metaphorically as a representation of the way we feel when we create our own worlds in video games, then it's actually very fitting.

It is both.

It is a fictional story that symbolically represents the feeling of reality/unreality which playing video games can invoke, it does this by telling the story of a person who stumbled through a portal and saw a wall of text about people having a conversation about him seeing their conservation as a wall of text.

They are not mutually exclusive, one is true for what the story is trying to tell us about the real world, while the other is true for what the story is trying to tell us about the game world.

 

[manu_zarri]

I hear you, but if a major portion of the poem is metaphorical it brings into question the rest of it.
In addition, Notch's response to the submission was that it reflected how he felt. Doesn't it seem strange to you that he said "feel", rather than saying it was accurate? The statement makes a lot more sense if the poem is metaphorical.

When I said earlier that the poem felt very out of place I meant in terms of taking it literally. If taken metaphorically as a representation of the way we feel when we create our own worlds in video games, then it's actually very fitting.

Not the whole poem is metaphorical, not only because the leanguge actually is understandable and have a normal meaning, but also because the author was refering to the dreams. Also Notch isn't the autohor of poem, the poem is related to the respawn system, and at the end Notch really gived a short and vague answer.

again, they stated that they are universe, and it's definitely not metaphorical, it wouldn't make sense if it is, since it's literally out of dreams context. and the real world is actually refered to real world so.

 

[Livinmeme]

this is just going circles

 

[FinePoint]

It is okay for a story to have a dual meaning, but the fact that this ending is so drastically different from any other aspect of the game is what sways me so hard into the metaphorical side. Ultimately, how much of the poem is metaphorical is up to our personal interpretations. Though we have statements that it is metaphorical, but we do not have any statements that it's literal.

That is all I will say for now until more input is given.

 

[Leotamer]

Since we did we need to have statements to say, "Yes, this piece of work is fiction and can analyzed as a piece of fiction"

This is an unfair standard that would not be applied other works.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I honestly feel that in this point this is a completely circular argument so I think is better just decide based in the votes:

Upgrade (24, 3 staff): Emirp sumitpo, ShakeResounding, Zencha, OnosokunoSonic, Saikou the Lewd King, Rabbit2002, The Wright Way, Milly Rocking Bandit, Maverick Zero X, Manu Zarri, Planck, Ricsi-Viragosi, MrKerf, Akuma No Hissetsu, Akuto123, Rxthegamer, Leotamer, Fastestthingalive50, InfiniteDay, ZetaMarishi, Livinmeme, Gohanblanco217, Lord_JJJ, Yar R Agi 7k

Deletion (18, 6 staff): Mr. Bambu, DatOneWeeb, Bobsican, Alonik, StrymULTRA, Moritzva, Rikimarox, Paul Frank, Delta333, Everything12, GyroNutz, DaReaperMan, The Impress, Expectro2000xxx, FinePoint, ProfessorKukui4Life, Antvasima, Dominodalek

???: DragonLord mentions support in equal parts of upgrade and deleting profiles.

Bold is obviously staff, italics are those that agree with the concept of an upgrade but disagree on where they actually land.

 

[Livinmeme]

It is okay for a story to have a dual meaning, but the fact that this ending is so drastically different from any other aspect of the game is what sways me so hard into the metaphorical side. Ultimately, how much of the poem is metaphorical is up to our personal interpretations. Though we have statements that it is metaphorical, but we do not have any statements that it's literal.

That is all I will say for now until more input is given.

Now you are playing the "meh is a poem so is subjective even if the part of the player seeing minecraft as fiction doesnt have flowery lengauje and is very understandable"

 

[Livinmeme]

I honestly feel that in this point this is a completely circular argument so I think is better just decide based in the votes:

Upgrade (24, 3 staff): Emirp sumitpo, ShakeResounding, Zencha, OnosokunoSonic, Saikou the Lewd King, Rabbit2002, The Wright Way, Milly Rocking Bandit, Maverick Zero X, Manu Zarri, Planck, Ricsi-Viragosi, MrKerf, Akuma No Hissetsu, Akuto123, Rxthegamer, Leotamer, Fastestthingalive50, InfiniteDay, ZetaMarishi, Livinmeme, Gohanblanco217, Lord_JJJ, Yar R Agi 7k

Deletion (18, 6 staff): Mr. Bambu, DatOneWeeb, Bobsican, Alonik, StrymULTRA, Moritzva, Rikimarox, Paul Frank, Delta333, Everything12, GyroNutz, DaReaperMan, The Impress, Expectro2000xxx, FinePoint, ProfessorKukui4Life, Antvasima, Dominodalek

???: DragonLord mentions support in equal parts of upgrade and deleting profiles.

Bold is obviously staff, italics are those that agree with the concept of an upgrade but disagree on where they actually land.

okay dont take my world as the only truth but we debunked every argument they haved and i think antvasima changed to neutral?

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

okay dont take my world as the only truth but we debunked every argument they haved and i think antvasima changed to neutral?

I have read all the arguments of the side that approve the upgrade and my position is the same, the whole point of debunk each side is just circular argument in this point so I don't think the votes in favor of deleting should be ignored or changed unless the person itself say that their opinion now is different, like for example Yar R Agi 7k which first was in the deleting side and now approve it. And Antvasima didn't changed to neutral, KieranH10 said he is neutral.

 

[Lou_change]

Forgive me but I am going to play devil's advocate.

The end poem being out of nowhere is true however this is kind of needed it's a sandbox game that has no true ending or story however the developers decided to include one given anything that they say would not be correct always unless it was based on statistics which would be underwhelming so the choice of their's was more abstract does this make it uncanon? Not really it can be but the arguement is flawed and as for it being a flowey language it is mostly required just saying "hey vs battles wiki here is a cosmology" is a terrible idea for an ending. The poem uses flowey language yes but for all we n
know that is just the whole sleeping idea could be a metaphor based of cthulhu's mythos.

 

[Livinmeme]

Forgive me but I am going to play devil's advocate.

The end poem being out of nowhere is true however this is kind of needed it's a sandbox game that has no true ending or story however the developers decided to include one given anything that they say would not be correct always unless it was based on statistics which would be underwhelming so the choice of their's was more abstract does this make it uncanon? Not really it can be but the arguement is flawed and as for it being a flowey language it is mostly required just saying "hey vs battles wiki here is a cosmology" is a terrible idea for an ending. The poem uses flowey language yes but for all we n
know that is just the whole sleeping idea could be a metaphor based of cthulhu's mythos.

... no i disagree with this for several reasons but i am doing something extremlly important so i am gona say this we arent using the sleep to get him in 5-D we are using the steve sees minecraft as fiction to get him to 5-D

 

[Lou_change]

If this is an attempt to mock me I literally started with Forgive me but I am going to play devil's advocate.

If not I never say sleeping was the argument.

 

[Livinmeme]

If this is an attempt to mock me I literally started with Forgive me but I am going to play devil's advocate.

If not I never say sleeping was the argument.

... you literally did said you said
know that is just the whole sleeping idea could be a metaphor based of cthulhu's mythos.

 

[GyroNutz]

Turning cheats on/off is done during world creation, if we presume the player views Minecraft as a game and is creating and destroying these worlds at his leisure, then there is no reason to presume he doesn't have access to Creative Mode. This is not an overly-literal intrepretation. It is just what those words the characters say literally mean.

If we deny the poem, then Creative Mode is seperate debate which was brought up but have not been discussed.

If you say cheats are not canon, then the block that lets you input cheats are also non-canon. This is just a disguised circular argument.

Uh no, you're the one introducing circular arguments. You made the assumption that The Player can access creative mode and used that to support commands blocks, which are still unavailable in creative mode btw. And yes, it is overly-literal when the poem was not meant to be taken literally in the first place as stated by its author

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@Antvasima Currently, including your opinion, the staff votes are 6-3 in favor of deletion. In terms of regular users and their opinions, as far as I can tell from skimming, there are still 21 votes total in favor of the upgrade, and there are now 19 in favor of deletion. Kieran retracted his staff vote in favor of deletion to a neutral stance. What ratio do you figure is sufficient to count this as denied?

 

[TheQuirkyBoy]

Deletion seems to be the right choice here, I agree with that as others pointed out.

 

[Lou_change]

That was an explanation of flowey language.

Anyway I am for deleting it given that was basically my best argument against doing so and it is pretty bad.

 

[Livinmeme]

so.. they are deleting them because the poem has flowery languaje except when it was debunked several times.... some day this wiki gona make my brain explode

 

[Mr. Bambu]

so.. they are deleting them because the poem has flowery languaje except when it was debunked several times.... some day this wiki gona make my brain explode

It isn't debunked, though. It is simply stated by some that their interpretations are different and they feel that the fact that the creator explicitly doesn't consider it legit isn't enough to disprove it.

 

[Leotamer]

Uh no, you're the one introducing circular arguments. You made the assumption that The Player can access creative mode and used that to support commands blocks, which are still unavailable in creative mode btw. And yes, it is overly-literal when the poem was not meant to be taken literally in the first place as stated by its author

My argument might not be persuasive to you, but it is not an circular argument.

The user in the narrative of the poem views Minecraft as a game -> There is no reason to believe that the user in the narrative views the game differently than we do -> Cheats can be activated in the world creation menu -> The player would have access to cheats if he choose to -> He would have access to command blocks.

Where does that circle around back to itself?

I have been accussed of fallacies, contradictions and circular arguments, but the only example I been provided was when I was venting and discussing how I felt about how the conversation was going, which is apparently a faulty logical reasoning or fallacy.

I am a bit concerned that it seems the VS battle debate community doesn't seem to understand basic debating terms and will throw them around without just cause.

 

[TheGatememer]

It isn't debunked, though. It is simply stated by some that their interpretations are different and they feel that the fact that the creator explicitly doesn't consider it legit isn't enough to disprove it.

I'm pretty sure that the creator only said that the dreams don't refer to different layers of reality. That doesn't disprove the Player seeing Minecraft as a game.

 

[Livinmeme]

It isn't debunked, though. It is simply stated by some that their interpretations are different and they feel that the fact that the creator explicitly doesn't consider it legit isn't enough to disprove it.

no it isnt



the game self recognize that is a game and even the entities mention that they tracend the game and the player tougth that they are in the game

they literally believe that the argument was dream wich it wasnt it was that the players see minecraft as fiction and no just because the poem has some flowery languaje doesnt mean everything is flowery or subjective that is just absurdly exagerated

 

[Livinmeme]

It isn't debunked, though. It is simply stated by some that their interpretations are different and they feel that the fact that the creator explicitly doesn't consider it legit isn't enough to disprove it.

aka: relying in subjective wich i hate and by that logic shouldnt the player would be 2-B probally Low 1-C i mean why your oppinion have more heigth that our oppinion that is literally is subjective in a way that is convinient for me and harmfull for you

 

[Leotamer]

Why are we discussing the author discussing the philosophical implications of a story he wrote as if it disproves that it is a story with an internally consistent narrative?

 

[manu_zarri]

anyways all Deletion votes are based on statament that Dream hierarchy is metaphoric, BUT noobody proved that the entities being universe isn't metaphoric, and it's totally unrelated to Dreams.

so instead of deleting page votes you should make them Disagree/Downgrade votes because deletion pages votes are currently "a house supported only by a supporting pillar" which normally would collapse, i think you got what i meant.

 

[ZetaMarishi]

Why are we discussing the author discussing the philosophical implications of a story he wrote as if it disproves that it is a story with an internally consistent narrative?

Because they disagree with the rating being there and are willing to take WoG statements on it in order to support their point when I swear I've seen other WoG statements for other series get disregarded for little to no reason.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Because they disagree with the rating being there and are willing to take WoG statements on it in order to support their point when I swear I've seen other WoG statements for other series get disregarded for little to no reason.

If Word of God isn't contradicted by the source material it can be used. It ain't contradicted here.

 

[Livinmeme]

Wait notch or the creator of the statement only refered about dreamns not You know steve or the player seing as fiction that is the point of the upgrade