Some Dragon Ball Additions

[BOEGVELD]

Bump

 

[Vietthai96]

A Kiai being used doesn't contradict or refute it being Power Nullification. It's a very specific Kiai [technique] that's only used to cancel out their opponent's attack. Again, that's quite literally what Power Nullification is.

Are they nullifying the powers of others? Yes.
Are they using a specific technique to do so? Also yes.
They're not stopping the attack due to being stronger, nor are they overpowering it with an even stronger attack, so I don't really see the issue here.

Actually you are misunderstood this. The feat is Kiai is not "power null" the Ki attack, he just firing an equal power kiai to blast both of the attack to cancel out eachother, like slamming 2 ki blast of the same power to neutralize each other. Example for Power Null is how God of Destruction Mode Toppo using his aura or when UI Goku null Jiren full powered Ki blast

 

[AKM sama]

because Toriyama has literally stated that the Nyoi-Bo can extend at least 380,000 kilometers. That's planetary range regardless.

Yeah, I remember Toriyama stating this in the interview, so the range bit should be fine.

 

[BOEGVELD]

The feat is Kiai is not "power null" the Ki attack, he just firing an equal power kiai to blast both of the attack to cancel out eachother, like slamming 2 ki blast of the same power to neutralize each other.

It's not a ''blast'' or attack though. There's also never stated to be some sort of power level connected to the technique. All it's shown and stated to do is cancel out its opponent's attacks. That's straight up Power Nullification.

 

[AKM sama]

"It can stretch out to at least 380,000 kilometers" is what he said. Posting the scan just for confirmation. It should be noted that Goku doesn't use that kind of range in character, and hasn't really used it even once outside of that gag feat.

 

[BOEGVELD]

"It can stretch out to at least 380,000 kilometers" is what he said. Posting the scan just for confirmation. It should be noted that Goku doesn't use that kind of range in character, and hasn't really used it even once outside of that gag feat.

Yeah I also included the scan in my original link for anyone who's curious.

Do you still disagree with Power Nullification for Tien and DBZ Goku, and Breaking the Fourth Wall for Master Roshi?

 

[BOEGVELD]

bump

 

[AKM sama]

Do you still disagree with Power Nullification for Tien and DBZ Goku, and Breaking the Fourth Wall for Master Roshi?

Yes. Kiai is not really power nullification and use of characters at the back of a chapter for writers to convey messages to the readers is not fourth wall breaking in a sense that we usually list where characters can do that inside the story itself.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Kiai by definition is a shout to build energy.

 

[Vietthai96]

Kiai is just an invisible blast created by bending the air to release air pressure, what null power here is the attack have equal power to the opposite ki blast and both of them cancel each other out. It not null blast through the use of special hax, jusg slamming 2 equal attack to neutralize each other.

 

[BOEGVELD]

A Kiai is not a single technique or blast. Tien's Kikoho concentrates a Kiai into one point, then releases it in a single burst. Uub's Kiai is a technique where he emits ki from his entire body to create shockwave. Goku and Cell's Kiai Cannon is an attack where they fire an invisible Ki blast. Just a to name a few examples. Let's stop treating the Kiai as if it's a single technique or blast, because it's not.

Now, I'm gonna go over the entire situation once more:

Tien against Tao Pai Pai:

Viz's translation: "W-with a Kiai- a shout- he n-neutralized the Super Dodon-Pa!!!"
Scanlation: ''You cancelled out the Super Dodonpa with just a karate yell.''

Goku against Nappa:

Viz's translation: "He blew it away... With chi alone!!"
Scanlation: "He... Cancelled it out with a Ki-ai shout...!"

Daizenshuu 7: "A technique where you extinguish a ki manipulation-type attack merely by firing a kiai. Tenshinhan instantly extinguished the Super Dodonpa that Tao Pai Pai fired at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai, and Goku did the same to Nappa's ki blast."

All it's shown and stated to do is cancel out its opponent's attack. Nothing suggests or implies that it's a blast, or that there's force behind this Kiai technique, so there's no reason to assume there was. Why would we assume more than necessary?

@AKM sama @DarkDragonMedeus @Vietthai96

 

[BOEGVELD]

use of characters at the back of a chapter for writers to convey messages to the readers is not fourth wall breaking in a sense that we usually list where characters can do that inside the story itself.

Fair enough, I guess.

 

[DivineAura44]

Don't at them plz. You can reply to their comments or use dms.

 

[BOEGVELD]

Don't at them plz. You can reply to their comments or use dms.

Sure. But what's wrong with @'ing them?

 

[Chariot190]

Sure. But what's wrong with @'ing them?

I'd assume he meant because it doesn't work. Only mods can actually notify via that way, in order to prevent normal users pinging mods ad infinitum.

 

[BOEGVELD]

I'd assume he meant because it doesn't work. Only mods can actually notify via that way, in order to prevent normal users pinging mods ad infinitum.

Oh, ok. Makes sense.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

that was mostly toyotaro being stupid

How so? It's been established in Dragon Ball Z that saiyans cannot survive in space, hell its even refrenced in akira toriyama interview about SSJG goku vs Beerus

 

[AKM sama]

All it's shown and stated to do is cancel out its opponent's attack. Nothing suggests or implies that it's a blast, or that there's force behind this Kiai technique, so there's no reason to assume there was. Why would we assume more than necessary?

A ki attack can also cancel out another ki attack. Kiai is literally a type of ki attack. Why wouldn't there be force behind it?

 

[Chariot190]

Doesn't Frieza use a Kiai to launch Goku through the ocean?

 

[BOEGVELD]

Kiai is literally a type of ki attack.

The Kiai was never stated or implied to be nothing but a Ki attack. Not only that, but the 'Kiai Extinguisher' proves this to be wrong.

Why wouldn't there be force behind it?

Because nothing suggests or implies there is. It's only shown and stated to cancel out its opponent's attacks, so it'd be weird to assume there's force behind it. And, on top of that, the name of this technique is literally "Kiai Extinguisher".

 

[AKM sama]

Kiai

Directory: Techniques → Offensive Techniques Kiai (気き合あい, Kiai lit. "Fighting Spirit" or "Mental Readiness")[13][14][10] is a ki attack that appears throughout the Dragon Ball franchise. It is a technique where the user affects the air currents around him with ki to produce powerful shockwaves...

dragonball.fandom.com

The Kiai Extinguisher is described simply as a kiai/ki attack that dispels weaker attacks.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

The Kiai was never stated or implied to be nothing but a Ki attack.

Daizenshuu 4, Classification of Attacks:

• Kiai attacks branch off of Ki Manipulation.
• "As opposed to the other techniques here, which can bee seen in the shape of energy bullets, this category of technique cannot be directly seen by the naked eye."

Daizenshuu 7, Special Attack Dictionary:

• "A technique where he emits ki from his entire body while letting out a great yell. While increasing his own ki, he causes an intense shockwave that attacks his opponent."
• "This attacks one's opponent by firing an invisible, gigantic bundle of ki."
• "A technique where one blows away their opponent by glaring at them sharply. An invisible attack, it is capable of taking the enemy by surprise."
• "It inflicts damage on the enemy by producing an artificial shockwave through rapid hand movement or the emission of ki."

Every known instance of the "Kiai" or "Shockwave" in the Daizenshuu describes it as nothing but an invisible Ki attack/shockwave.

 

[BOEGVELD]

Daizenshuu 4, Classification of Attacks:

• Kiai attacks branch off of Ki Manipulation.
• "As opposed to the other techniques here, which can bee seen in the shape of energy bullets, this category of technique cannot be directly seen by the naked eye.

None of these say a Kiai can be nothing but a Ki attack. Also, Kiai techniques falling under Ki manipulation does not refute the Kiai Extinguisher being Power Nullification.

The mechanisms by which this effect is accomplished and their restrictions vary from character to character, but the ability is often limited to a certain type of power, such as supernatural phenomena in general, or magic.

Kiai techniques being invisible is true (for the most part). I don't see how this has any relevance to this dicussion though. Does a technique have to visible for it to be Power Nullification?

Daizenshuu 7, Special Attack Dictionary:

• "A technique where he emits ki from his entire body while letting out a great yell. While increasing his own ki, he causes an intense shockwave that attacks his opponent."
• "This attacks one's opponent by firing an invisible, gigantic bundle of ki."
• "A technique where one blows away their opponent by glaring at them sharply. An invisible attack, it is capable of taking the enemy by surprise."
• "It inflicts damage on the enemy by producing an artificial shockwave through rapid hand movement or the emission of ki."

Every known instance of the "Kiai" or "Shockwave" in the Daizenshuu describes it as nothing but an invisible Ki attack/shockwave.

Almost* every known instance. Are you suggesting that because most Kiai techniques are invisible Ki attacks, they all have to be invisible Ki attacks? Because that's fallacious logic, and simply untrue as well.

 

[BOEGVELD]

Kiai

Directory: Techniques → Offensive Techniques Kiai (気き合あい, Kiai lit. "Fighting Spirit" or "Mental Readiness")[13][14][10] is a ki attack that appears throughout the Dragon Ball franchise. It is a technique where the user affects the air currents around him with ki to produce powerful shockwaves...

dragonball.fandom.com

The Kiai Extinguisher is described simply as a kiai/ki attack that dispels weaker attacks.

Yeah...by a fan Wiki. That doesn't hold any weight. The Daizenshuu, an official source, describes it as a technique ''where you extinguish a ki manipulation-type attack merely by firing a kiai.'' That's also all it's shown and stated to do within the manga. ''It can only dispel weaker attacks'', ''the Kiai Extinguisher is an attack'' and ''there's force behind the Kiai Extinguisher'' are all extra assumptions you're making in this situation. Why would we assume any of these when nothing suggests or implies these in the first place?

 

[AKM sama]

@Nullflowerblush Thanks for providing the sources.

@BOEGVELD You are ignoring the context. As pointed out, kiai is simply a ki attack. Kiai extinguisher is simply a ki attack that cancels weaker attacks. That's true for literally all ki attacks. The "assumptions" made here are not assumptions, but simply information that we get with context, while you're strictly focusing on a definition while ignoring everything else about how it all works.

 

[Vietthai96]

I'm also agree with AKM here, lika i said before, Kiai is just another type of Ki attack, which neutralize or cancel out another Ki blast by deflect it, cancel it through equal or stronger power. You trying to focus on single word of cancel and neutralize, etc....... to make it like it is Power Null

 

[BOEGVELD]

You are ignoring the context.

I've included every statement regarding the Kiai Extinguisher, and yet not a single one states or implies that it's an attack, so what context am I ignoring? Your entire argument seems to be ''other Kiai techniques are Ki attacks, therefore this one must be as well.'' Which is, again, fallacious logic.

You trying to focus on single word of cancel and neutralize, etc....... to make it like it is Power Null

Because those words are mentioned both times this technique is used. Where should I focus on instead? On how other Kiai techniques work? Or should I just make assumptions about the technique? I don't really see the logic behind these arguments.

Look, nothing shows, states or implies that this technique only dispels weaker attacks, is a Ki attack or has force behind it, so these assumptions should just be dismissed, and we should instead focus on the actual information presented about the Kiai Extinguisher. In this case, all the sources either state or imply that the technique cancels out the opponent's technique. It's a pretty simple topic.

 

[Vietthai96]

I've included every statement regarding the Kiai Extinguisher, and yet not a single one states or implies that it's an attack, so what context am I ignoring? Your entire argument seems to be ''other Kiai techniques are Ki attacks, therefore this one must be as well.'' Which is, again, fallacious logic.

It is not fallacious logic cause Ki is universal energy system in Dragon Ball, so all ki attack work the same unless stated otherwise, or a specific type like Hakai Ki of GoD or Dark Ki of Demon God from DBH. So you are the one who need to prove it is different

Because those words are mentioned both times this technique is used. Where should I focus on instead? On how other Kiai techniques work? Or should I just make assumptions about the technique? I don't really see the logic behind these arguments.

You actually made an assumption based on the context of wording

Look, nothing shows, states or implies that this technique only dispels weaker attacks, is a Ki attack or has force behind it, so these assumptions should just be dismissed, and we should instead focus on the actual information presented about the Kiai Extinguisher. In this case, all the sources either state or imply that the technique cancels out the opponent's technique. It's a pretty simple topic.

It is not assumption because that how Ki work, it don't need to to be state or implied through wording cause it already shown in the series, you actually need to prove it the other way around, so the burden of proof is on you. About wording, when a word can be interpreted in many way then it is not a strong evidence, cancel out mean many thing, you just pull one of it meaning out to present it as Power Null

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Your entire argument is "It is a technique designed specifically to extinguish ki attacks, so it is Power Nullification".
This is like the EE Spirit Bomb argument.

 

[BOEGVELD]

It is not fallacious logic cause Ki is universal energy system in Dragon Ball, so all ki attack work the same unless stated otherwise, or a specific type like Hakai Ki of GoD or Dark Ki of Demon God from DBH. So you are the one who need to prove it is different

This is simply more fallacious logic. Ki being a universal energy system does not mean/prove that all Ki manipulation techniques work the same. Besides, I've already included every statement regarding this technique, and none describe it as a Ki attack. They describe it as as something completely different.

It is not assumption because that how Ki work, it don't need to to be state or implied through wording cause it already shown in the series, you actually need to prove it the other way around, so the burden of proof is on you.

Was the technique stated to be an attack? Was it stated to have force behind it? No. So yes, you are making those assumptions.

About wording, when a word can be interpreted in many way then it is not a strong evidence, cancel out mean many thing, you just pull one of it meaning out to present it as Power Null

I'm very curious how else you could interpret ''cancel out'' if you don't use the ''neutralize or negate the force or effect of (another)'' definition here. Even the ''decide or announce that (a planned event) will not take place'' definition supports the technique being Power Nullification.

 

[BOEGVELD]

Your entire argument is "It is a technique designed specifically to extinguish ki attacks, so it is Power Nullification".
This is like the EE Spirit Bomb argument.

That's not my argument, but yes, it being designed to extinguish Ki attacks does support it. The literal defintion of ''extinguish'' is ''cause (a fire or light) to cease to burn or shine.'' With similar terms being ''put out''.

 

[BOEGVELD]

Bump

 

[AKM sama]

This is simply more fallacious logic. Ki being a universal energy system does not mean/prove that all Ki manipulation techniques work the same. Besides, I've already included every statement regarding this technique, and none describe it as a Ki attack. They describe it as as something completely different.

The technique itself is a slight variation of kiai. Not even a variation of kiai, it's literally that, to be completely honest. So that special part does not need to be mentioned again and again in the technique's definition when it has already been mentioned prior what kiai is and how it works,

Was the technique stated to be an attack? Was it stated to have force behind it? No. So yes, you are making those assumptions.

You are taking a single definition and analyzing it in complete isolation, while ignoring everything else about it mentioned prior.

I say we just make the change that is accepted, and close this thread.

 

[SamanPatou]

I agree with AKM and Nullflower.

Also, iirc Toriyama stated (I don't remember where) that the Monster Carrot gang escaped from the moon some time before its destruction, so them having that durability wouldn't be a feat anyway, gag or not.

 

[AKM sama]

iirc Toriyama stated (I don't remember where) that the Monster Carrot gang escaped from the moon some time before its destruction

From what I remember, he was asked what happened to the gang since the moon got destroyed. He simply replied that they are still floating in the space. Nothing about escaping, and they didn't even have any means to escape. Or they'd just come back to Earth.

Anyway, I am assuming these are the things that are accepted:

- Planetary Range for Goku with the Nyoi-Bo.

- Afterimage Creation for Krillin.

- Paralysis Inducement for Chaozu.

 

[BOEGVELD]

So that special part does not need to be mentioned again and again in the technique's definition when it has already been mentioned prior what kiai is and how it works,

Except, again, the Kiai is not a single technique. There's various techniques that work in various ways. It's never stated or implied to be nothing but an attack, so, there's no reason to assume this.

You are taking a single definition and analyzing it in complete isolation, while ignoring everything else about it mentioned prior.

I'm analyzing every piece of information available about the Kiai Extinguisher. How other Kiai techniques work is, again, completely meaningless in this conversation. This argument is quite literally a False Equivalence.

 

[BOEGVELD]

bump

 

[AKM sama]

@SamanPatou Can you apply the accepted changes?

 

[SamanPatou]

Yes, I'll do it later.

 

[SamanPatou]

From what I remember, he was asked what happened to the gang since the moon got destroyed. He simply replied that they are still floating in the space. Nothing about escaping, and they didn't even have any means to escape. Or they'd just come back to Earth.

Anyway, I am assuming these are the things that are accepted:

- Planetary Range for Goku with the Nyoi-Bo.

- Afterimage Creation for Krillin.

- Paralysis Inducement for Chaozu.

I've applied these things.