Simon the Digger vs Chimera (GRACE ENDED)

[ThanatosX]

Both are at their High 1-C Keys.

SBA is applied and speed is equalized.

Who wins?

Simon the Digger: 16 (BluudyManikin777, GreatIskandar14045, Emirp sumitpo, Rabbit2002, N_Kardashev, OnsokunoSonic, AkumaNoHissatsu, Fixxed, Sus, Bernkastelll, Harith0cell, WrongIdea21, Orioreeem, Lapsad, Delta333, Popted2)

Chimera: 16 (Heavens_Feel, CinCameron20, Zensum, Accelerate420, Confluctor, Accel0305, DontTalkDT, Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye, Yomi_Schwarz, Dat_Dot, RegisNex1232, Schnee_One, Rez, Heisuke780, Risinglons, Setsuna_tenma)

Incon: 0

 

[BluudyManikin777]

There are two High 1-C keys for both of them

 

[DontTalkDT]

Why does Simon have FTL as a power?

So, Simon has AE for being a materialized thought, yes?
How good is his mind hax resistance?
Does he have a soul?
How would he do in a realm of non-existence?
What can he do against Law Manip?

 

[ThanatosX]

For Simon it's the Post-Apotheosis Key.

For Chimera is the strongest of the two Keys, which I guess it would be the first one.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

So, Simon has AE for being a materialized thought, yes?

Yes

How good is his mind hax resistance?

In his verse, he should basically be immune, as the very thing that manipulated his mind, is now a part of him, and he can freely manipulate it. That thing being the Multiverse itself

Does he have a soul?

Yes

How would he do in a realm of non-existence?

I'm not entirely sure, Chimera seems to not have NEP, but can apparently exist in non-existent places

What can he do against Law Manip?

How is it used in terms of combat?

 

[BluudyManikin777]

By the description of her Soul Manipulation, it only works on inferior beings. It's up to interpretation on whether Simon would even be considered inferior compared to her

 

[DontTalkDT]

In his verse, he should basically be immune, as the very thing that manipulated his mind, is now a part of him, and he can freely manipulate it. That thing being the Multiverse itself

What does that translate to in terms of out of universe resistance?

Yes

Would Chimera's passive soul attack then just kill him?

I'm not entirely sure, Chimera seems to not have NEP, but can apparently exist in non-existent places

Yep. He isn't non-existent but can exist in such places. And he immediately turns the battlefield into such a place, as MG's passively destroy existence by entering. That's why they always chill in non-existent realms.

How is it used in terms of combat?

It's part of the Magic Gods general reality warping i.e. "Omnipotence" in in-universe terms. They can do laws of physics, mathematics and spiritual stuff.

So in principle they could just make a law that says that Simon isn't allowed to exist.

 

[DontTalkDT]

By the description of her Soul Manipulation, it only works on inferior beings. It's up to interpretation on whether Simon would even be considered inferior compared to her

Nah, that was never really indicated. Other magic gods can take it, but that's because they are special existences i.e. have resistance.

And that's just the passive soul attack at that. Chimera has even stronger active attacks.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

What does that translate to in terms of out of universe resistance?

It's still pretty good, as he can break out of trans-like states

Would Chimera's passive soul attack then just kill him?

Depends if it shows it can affect abstracts. If she can't interact with an Abstract, it's not killing Simon

Yep. He isn't non-existent but can exist in such places. And he immediately turns the battlefield into such a place, as MG's passively destroy existence by entering. That's why they always chill in non-existent realms.

It still has to be shown to be capable of destroying Abstracts

It's part of the Magic Gods general reality warping i.e. "Omnipotence" in in-universe terms. They can do laws of physics, mathematics and spiritual stuff.

So in principle they could just make a law that says that Simon isn't allowed to exist.

I'm not sure how that would work on an abstract, since abstracts don't have confirmed existences in relation to people with normal existences, in the first place

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Nah, that was never really indicated. Other magic gods can take it, but that's because they are special existences i.e. have resistance.

And that's just the passive soul attack at that. Chimera has even stronger active attacks.

Still depends if it can work on abstract beings

 

[BluudyManikin777]

All Simon has to do is punch her, and that's that. But its still not a vote, as I don't know the other character to a reasonable degree

 

[DontTalkDT]

It's still pretty good, as he can break out of trans-like states

I mean, Chimera is infinitely stronger than someone that can mind control every person that has ever lived.

Depends if it shows it can affect abstracts. If she can't interact with an Abstract, it's not killing Simon

It still has to be shown to be capable of destroying Abstracts

I'm not sure how that would work on an abstract, since abstracts don't have confirmed existences in relation to people with normal existences, in the first place

It's not like Simon is inherently a conceptual entity. There is no reason to assume his soul is harder to affect than a regular soul, just because he became a materialized thought in body.
I see no reason to assume it got harder to destroy than that of a regular human.

If he can't resist or undo the law manip he will also not be able to influence reality anymore and would lose due to incap.

All Simon has to do is punch her, and that's that. But its still not a vote, as I don't know the other character to a reasonable degree

Can't punch Chimera if he can't deal with non-existent places.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Then this is a stomp, he immediately dies when the battle begins via Soul Manipulation and Void Manipulation

He also has type 4 acausality, and I'm not sure how that would help him

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Simon also has Probability Manipulation which is passive, and changes the probability of successfully hitting someone, scaling far above Kittan who could destroy the Death Spiral Machine, which was stated to have a 0 percent chance of succeeding in destroying. It's also passive, because he could hurt Anti-Spiral with all his punches, and Anti-Spiral stated that the chances of winning in his universe was 0%. It isn't just hyperbole either, because he said this after Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann shot several times at Granzeboma, and didn't damage it once. It also isn't superior AP, as Anti-Spiral's absolute despair tactic makes him want to always fight equally with opponents, in terms of power

 

[DontTalkDT]

Chimera also has probability manipulation, scaling infinitely above Othinus who could change her probability of success from 0% (100% chance of failure), due to the fairy spell, to 100% success (without negating the spell).

 

[ThanatosX]

Chimera doesn't have NPI, how is she affecting Simon?

Also, she doesn't have NEP, so Simon doesn't need to affect non existent beings to affect her.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Chimera also has probability manipulation, scaling infinitely above Othinus who could change her probability of success from 0% (100% chance of failure), due to the fairy spell, to 100% success (without negating the spell).

Upscaling doesn't automatically make the probability manipulation stronger. And iirc, the probability manipulation would be assumed to be in favor of someone who's superior in strength

Edit: nvm (for the second sentence)

 

[DontTalkDT]

Chimera doesn't have NPI, how is she affecting Simon?

Also, she doesn't have NEP, so Simon doesn't need to affect non existent beings to affect her.

NPI is for punching incorporeal things or otherwise affect them without abilities that should allow that. You don't give NPI for affecting a soul via soul manipulation. Which is why Chimera doesn't have it. He affects non-physical things by reality warping and other abilities, such as soul manip, mind manip or law manip.

Simon doesn't need to affect non-existent beings to affect Chimera, that's correct. However, he will need to deal with the non-existent place Chimera drags him into, in which concepts such as distance and time don't apply. He won't be able to do much in there without appropriate powers.

Upscaling doesn't automatically make the probability manipulation stronger. And iirc, the probability manipulation would be assumed to be in favor of someone who's superior in strength

Edit: nvm (for the second sentence)

They are at least equal, though. And considering that Chimera can manipulate mathematics he could skewer things in his favor further.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

he will need to deal with the non-existent place Chimera drags him into, in which concepts such as distance and time don't apply

He's stated to transcend time and space, therefore being unbound by such things

And considering that Chimera can manipulate mathematics he could skewer things in his favor further.

Simon has Resistance to Probability Manipulation, even resistance to Causality and Fate manipulation. So, I'm pretty sure doing all that wouldn't actually do anything

 

[ThanatosX]

NPI is for punching incorporeal things or otherwise affect them without abilities that should allow that. You don't give NPI for affecting a soul via soul manipulation. Which is why Chimera doesn't have it. He affects non-physical things by reality warping and other abilities, such as soul manip, mind manip or law manip.

Simon doesn't need to affect non-existent beings to affect Chimera, that's correct. However, he will need to deal with the non-existent place Chimera drags him into, in which concepts such as distance and time don't apply. He won't be able to do much in there without appropriate powers.

I am talking about about the AE of Simon.
If Simon became the materialisation of thoughts, Chimera would need a feat of affect thoughts for her haxes to work on him. And for doing this, she would need NPI.

 

[DontTalkDT]

He's stated to transcend time and space, therefore being unbound by such things

That depends on the context and whether that translates to him being able to fight in voids lacking the concepts of those things depends even more on context.

Simon has Resistance to Probability Manipulation, even resistance to Causality and Fate manipulation. So, I'm pretty sure doing all that wouldn't actually do anything

Probability, causality and fate aren't really mathematics, though. Mathematics would, if anything, be closer to law manipulation.

I am talking about about the AE of Simon.
If Simon became the materialisation of thoughts, Chimera would need a feat of affect thoughts for her haxes to work on him. And for doing this, she would need NPI.

Thoughts are aspects of the mind and Chimera has mind manipulation. Including manipulation of incorporeal minds, of course.

Him becoming a thought doesn't automatically equate to his soul being a thought as well, either. An astral thing such as a soul can be attached to incorporeal things just fine, after all.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

That depends on the context and whether that translates to him being able to fight in voids lacking the concepts of those things depends even more on context.

Being unbound by time and space should automatically mean that you can move along locations which don't have any of that stuff

 

[ThanatosX]

Thoughts are aspects of the mind and Chimera has mind manipulation. Including manipulation of incorporeal minds, of course.

Him becoming a thought doesn't automatically equate to his soul being a thought as well, either. An astral thing such as a soul can be attached to incorporeal things just fine, after all.

This seems iffy to me. Using haxes to affect Minds and Souls isn't enough to be able to interact with Abstract beings that are the manifestation of thoughts and I have never seen something like this brought up in a versus match.

Let's wait for other knowledgeable members on the matter.

 

[Everything12]

That only applies to Abstracts that are Concepts and Possibilities and such, an Abstraction of Thought logically isn't quite as unaffected by stuff that can affect the Mind (as in the the Abstract consciousness not the physical brain, as most Mind Manipulation manipulates the thoughts not the brain).

 

[ThanatosX]

That only applies to Abstracts that are Concepts and Possibilities and such, an Abstraction of Thought logically isn't quite as unaffected by stuff that can affect the Mind (as in the the Abstract consciousness not the physical brain, as most Mind Manipulation manipulates the thoughts not the brain).

Using this logic, I think that only Chimera's Mind Hax would work on Simon.

Considering that Chimera doesn't have NPI and Simon is the materialisation of thoughts, the only way that she can deal damage to him is by striking the Mind, which she can do only through Mind Hax.
The other haxes like Soul Manipulation and Law Manipulation shouldn't affect him, or at least in my opinion.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Using this logic, I think that only Chimera's Mind Hax would work on Simon.

How does Chimera's Mind Manipulation work?

 

[ThanatosX]

How does Chimera's Mind Manipulation work?

I have no idea honestly, so I am not sure if it can go past Simon's resistence or not.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Post-Apotheosis Simon got an upgrade yesterday, and is not infinitely stronger than before

 

[Lapsad]

Oh well this mean thought is weakest state of abstract ?

 

[Everything12]

Off the top of my head, probably.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

is being an emotion the same thing as a thought?

 

[Everything12]

In a way, its not a 1-to-1 comparison, but they are on a similar level if you understand what I mean.

 

[Lapsad]

Simon has type 4 acausal this would help from deadly probability ?

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Simon has type 4 acausal this would help from deadly probability ?

From what it seems, they both have the same level of Probability Manipulation, passively manipulating probability to be in their favor, even changing the chances to 100%. But, Acausality type 4 should be immune to probability manipulation, even causality and fate manipulation

 

[Lapsad]

Next huge thing is a mathematics (i don't know how it work).

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Next huge thing is a mathematics (i don't know how it work).

Yeah, I haven't got any idea how its used in a fight, let's just wait for DT

 

[Everything12]

I believe it would be comparably to Probability Manipulation but it works through manipulating Laws and Physics of the World instead of doing the whole manipulates Causality through Probability thing Probability Manipulation does.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

I believe it would be comparably to Probability Manipulation but it works through manipulating Laws and Physics of the World instead of doing the whole manipulates Causality through Probability thing Probability Manipulation does.

I still don't understand it

 

[Everything12]

The world is built upon Mathematics, its the Law of the world, with Mathematics you can affect the chance of something happening because chances are just that, numbers which are maths.

 

[Everything12]

Managed to get a second opinion, Acausality Type 4 does not grant protection to Probability Manipulation by default.