Shinza Banshou downgrade

[Darksmash]

I don't think we are on the same page here in some way cuz its just they cannot reach the throne yes. They can cross it but have to get to the deity otherwise would fall endlessly and never reach the god for not being the same taiji wouldn't let them challenge the godhead.

Sigh
ok so, I know Gods>Singularity. The question is, are they above every possible occurence of the singularity? Provably not as they are not beyond a "singularity that is being powered by the godhead"
We know the singularity increases in depth with the godhead. But the question is, by how much?
To answer this question, the current interpretation of the profiles argues it's infinitely deep for each taikyoku because it is unreachable to the challenger unless they have the same value.

However, If the only reason the challenger is not able to drill through is because they are facing the godhead directly, that gives us 2 possibilities:-
1) The throne being unreachable was not because of the depth increase, but because of some other factor.
2) Facing the godhead makes the challenger face a much greater depth than the normal one which is not retained when the godhead stops backing it. Which means the challenger will not be above that iteration of the singularity.

Singularity depth (Ðüorresponds to the inner depth of any God on the throne, including Hajun, and therefore can be an infinite hierarchy) - starts from 1-A

The most significant arguments for High 1-A were:-
1) Treating the singularity and it's expansions as a painting and applying the statements from Soujirou vs Akuro to it(Already wrong as it's not a thing inside the painting but a hole in the canvas)
2) Each Taikyoku user being above every possible iteration of the singularity, even the one which was unreachable to Yato when he was facing Hajun. With the argument for singularity expansions being transcendent in scale coming from this in the first place.

As I have already explained like 10 times by now, none of them make much sense.

 

[Gabs22_Gamer]

The Eastern Expedition had to do a lot of shenanigans to defeat Hajun in purpose, one of them being Keshirou and Sakuya opening a "hole" on Tengu-Dou's World to even allow Habaki to remove the tumor.

 

[Gabs22_Gamer]

Now the main point being discussed here is by how many extensions of the Singularity the Hegemony Gods are considered above.

In a way, I'm still sided with Red.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Btw in case anyone wants to know Habaki could remove the Tumor its due to his connection to the Tumor, as its Sensory he technically is the Tumor.

Anyway the issues rn is what the depth of the singularity is/how large is the difference between the levels and weather or not every God is always above the Singularity.

 

[Darksmash]

Now the main point being discussed here is by how many extensions of the Singularity the Hegemony Gods are considered above.

In a way, I'm still sided with Red.

It's not just about how many extensions of it they are above, it's also about the nature of these extensions themselves and how it basically runs in a circular argument with the challenger not being able to reach the throne being an argument for it being transcendent but also the challenger somehow being above it at the same time.

 

[PsychoWarper]

It's not just about how many extensions of it they are above, it's also about the nature of these extensions themselves and how it basically runs in a circular argument with the challenger not being able to reach the throne being an argument for it being transcendent but also the challenger somehow being above it at the same time.

The primary reasoning is that the Singularity is contained by the Throne and any God with Taiji is superior to the Throne (At least within DI and K3), regardless of its depth its still contained by the Throne and therefore a Colored God is above it.

However when a Throne God enforces the Singularity with his own power it basically creates a “Wall” that an approaching God must “Drill” through via their own Taiji, if your Taiji level isnt on par with or above the Throne Gods no matter how long or how hard you drill you will never break through.

Example: Merc has 90 Taiji meaning when hes the Throne God when he enforces the Singularity a God with 89 Taiji or less is incapable of reaching the Throne.

 

[Darksmash]

The primary reasoning is that the Singularity is contained by the Throne and any God with Taiji is superior to the Throne (At least within DI and K3), regardless of its depth its still contained by the Throne and therefore a Colored God is above it.

However when a Throne God enforces the Singularity with his own power it basically creates a “Wall” that an approaching God must “Drill” through via their own Taiji, if your Taiji level isnt on par with or above the Throne Gods no matter how long or how hard you drill you will never break through.

Example: Merc has 90 Taiji meaning when hes the Throne God when he enforces the Singularity a God with 89 Taiji or less is incapable of reaching the Throne.

The issue is, the argument that the singularity expansions are transcendent itself relies heavily on the challenger not being able to drill through this "wall", which makes the throne unreachable to them.

If they are not able to drill through this "God powered" version of the singularity, where exactly does High 1-A come from then? heck, as far as I know the singularity literally appears only when a challenger tries to reach the current godhead. So there literally cannot be a "non god powered" singularity.

Narration: Yato cannot reach Hajun through this "god powered" variation of the singularity because it's just too deep for him to drill through.
The profiles: Actually they are above all possible depths of the singularity by default.

Obviously this stuff is highly questionable >_>
I find it incredibly saddening that everyone ignores these obvious loopholes I have pointed out in favour of cancelling me for using one scan with machine translation. It's already hard to find the relevant scans and translate each and every one of them repeatedly to see what they say and try to make sense of the information.

 

[Arcker123]

Do all High 1-A characters get downgraded?

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

after reading all i think i agree with downgrade

 

[Antvasima]

Are you saying Autistic people cant be strong?

Well, I managed to organise the growth of this community from its tiny garbage heap beginnings as least.

So should we consider Hajun as a form if hate-speech against autistic people in general? (Just kidding. I am not that oversensitive.)

Anyway, @Warren_Valion , @Qliphoth_Bacikal and @SleepyTBubble would you be willing to comment here please?

Given that @TISSG7Redgrave is against the downgrade, and the previous threads that decided the current tiers were far more thorough and elaborate , I think that this seems unreliable though.

 

[SleepyTBubble]

I mean, Hajun autism is what made him retardly broken and having the position of the strongest God

Also he is a great antag with a lot of depth to him and i applaud Masada for making him

 

[PsychoWarper]

Well they are technically above the Singularity even Hajuns as they exist above the Throne which in turn contains the Singularity, its just the Cosmology is weird as **** due to Masada being a crackhead.

When the Singularity doesnt have a Throne God powering it it still exists, its a layered pit full of Infinite Concepts and Colorless Taiji.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Well, I managed to organise the growth of this community from its tiny garbage heap beginnings as least.

So should we consider Hajun as a form if hate-speech against autistic people in general? (Just kidding. I am not that oversensitive.)

Anyway, @Warren_Valion , @Qliphoth_Bacikal and @SleepyTBubble would you be willing to comment here please?

Given that @TISSG7Redgrave is against the downgrade, and the previous threads that decided the current tiers were far more thorough and elaborate , I think that this seems unreliable though.

Can I just say that Warren has stated he has no interest in this thread and has no plans on returning to the wiki outside maybe minor things. It’s unfortunate but those are his wishes (He didnt even wanna see talk about the thread in the Shinza Discord).

 

[PsychoWarper]

I mean, Hajun autism is what made him retardly broken and having the position of the strongest God

Also he is a great antag with a lot of depth to him and i applaud Masada for making him

Hajun is honestly one of my favourite characters in Shinza tbh

 

[ShivaShakti]

Agree with the downgrade for now.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Do all High 1-A characters get downgraded?

Yes.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The thing is, Redgrave can give the most detailed cosmology explanations he wants but the problem is that nothing in it proves High 1-A. Seriously, all the talk about the Singularity and Throne even accepting as true doesn't go past 1-A

 

[Everything12]

Well nothing will happen if we don't get more Staff opinions, and I have doubts the people Ant called for will come vote. So at this point its probably best to call Staff members not associated with the Verse, even if the chance of them replying is slim.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

ı agree with the matthew also

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think the issue with Shinza is less about "Are these people hardcore fans who read up untranslated japanese novels" and more about "Do these quotes, whether they're in japanese or not, actually imply High 1-A?".

And from what I can read in this thread the answer is no. 1-A at least is a given but High 1-A is an extreme extrapolation

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

I literally do not care about Shinza right now with all this, so I do not want to be bothered.

What I will say is in regards to Matthew’s comment because I had the exact same thoughts about a year ago wondering the same. Not saying I agree or disagree with the downgrade, just saying that what he said does have a point...which as I always say should also apply to ALL SERIES.

In any case, I’m not even in the mindset to come back to Shinza nor do I want to even talk about it unless it’s for other problems that are not this thread because it is seriously asinine to be here...

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Matthew pretty much summed up a response I was going to make. So yeah. In agreeance with Matt and the downgrade just to solidify my position.

 

[Arcker123]

They are getting downgraded to 1-A or 1-A+?

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

They are getting downgraded to 1-A or 1-A+?

Regular 1-A

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

1-A but like a bazillion levels above baseline because of how Taikyoku works.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

And this’ll happen If the downgrade gets accepted of course.

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

1-A but like a bazillion levels above baseline because of how Taikyoku works.

Nyarlethotep vs Hajun: Rematch

 

[Antvasima]

I am just concerned about if we suddenly downgrade the Masadaverse based on a brief comparatively uninformed discussion, compared to the lengthy discussions backed by extremely elaborate explanation blogs that upgraded it in the first place.

 

[Antvasima]

I mean, Hajun autism is what made him retardly broken and having the position of the strongest God

Also he is a great antag with a lot of depth to him and i applaud Masada for making him

Well, the concept of Hajun makes it seem like autistic people are inherently evil egomaniacs, rather than just shut off, obsessive, and oversensitive to sensory input, but on the other hand you are correct in what you said above, so I am not sure what to make of the character.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

It isn’t an uninformed discussion though, Ant. Every argument that has been presented is completely logical. And just like Matt said, those lengthy discussions didn’t justify high 1-A, the significant points that did were covered here by the OP.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Nyarlethotep vs Hajun: Rematch

Please reconsider your life choices post CM revisions.

 

[Star_King_Demon_Lord]

I’m starting to lean more towards disagreeing now after reading the comments

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I would appreciate if some of you at least properly read through all of the explanation blogs linked via the Masadaverse wiki page before we do anything overly hasty and potentially destructive.

 

[Sera_EX]

I disagree with the downgrade based on the arguments presented here (most of which are irrelevant and don't address the depth of the singularity and all that was established in the upgrade thread). I will say that Matt does have some sense in his arguments.

I believe we shouldn't do anything too rash given the nature of this verse. Especially when a lot of people on the downgrade side unfortunately don't seem to have read or properly understand the source material.

Hopefully that didn't come out too harsh.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I disagree with the downgrade based on the arguments presented here (most of which are irrelevant and don't address the depth of the singularity and all that was established in the upgrade thread). I will say that Matt does have some sense in his arguments.

I did read the arguments on the depth of the singularity but none of the quotes about it prove High 1-A, Sera.

This is the issue, the misunderstanding comes from a misinterpretation of the tiering system.

 

[Sera_EX]

I said that from day one, but it got dismissed by Ultima, Di, and Agnaa, three very significant figures when it comes to the new system, so how should I know? Standards seem arbitrarily applied here all the time, just like with CM.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I would appreciate if some of you at least properly read through all of the explanation blogs linked via the Masadaverse wiki page before we do anything overly hasty and potentially destructive.

 

[PsychoWarper]

I still fully disagree but anyway ignoring that, would Hajun not still qualify for H1A by himself? One of the big arguments is seemingly that no one would scale to Hajuns Singularity, but Hajun himself would cause its you know... his.

In terms of anti-feats two of which come from Pantheon that was part fo a trailer to a game that will likely never be released (Compbay literally went bankrupt) and we dont even know any context for it.

The Yato feat of slowing his Law via his own could very easily just but summed up as PIS seeing as how it was a major plot point in the series and literally had to happen for K3 to even happen since if it didnt Hajun would have literally nuked everything. Hell this is still a weakened Hajun as when hes the Throne God, Hajun actually gets weaker due to the infinite souls clinging to him.

The last one involving Merc is about how he has a slim to none chance to erase the possibility of Hajun ever becoming a God, and Merc’s power have been shown to negate Acausality. That could instead just be used as a feat for Throne God Merc’s power as the Throne is supposed to give a big boost in power to everyone that isnt Hajun. Theres also that Hajun doesnt have the Tumor for this.

 

[SleepyTBubble]

Well, the concept of Hajun makes it seem like autistic people are inherently evil egomaniacs, rather than just shut off, obsessive, and oversensitive to sensory input, but on the other hand you are correct in what you said above, so I am not sure what to make of the character.

Hajun concept was entirely based on the Demon king of the sixth Heaven (Mara) in buddhism, a demonic being who is the very antagonistic force of enlightenment and it can be clearly seeing in how Masada interpret it by having Hajun being an entirely self-loving narcissitic being.

This is also clearly shown in artistic symbolism where Hajun's is shown with (if i am not mistaken) a closed lotus which is pretty neat. In buddhism a fully blooming lotus represents enlightnement and awarness of one self, the opposite of it being that of a closed lotus

And its not like he is trying to make it seem like autistic people are inherently evil. You have a Goddess like Marie who's one of the altruistic beings ever and she wouldn't even harm a single fly

also if you want my opinion on this, i disagree

 

[ShivaShakti]

I still fully disagree but anyway ignoring that, would Hajun not still qualify for H1A by himself? One of the big arguments is seemingly that no one would scale to Hajuns Singularity, but Hajun himself would cause its you know... his.

In terms of anti-feats two of which come from Pantheon that was part fo a trailer to a game that will likely never be released (Compbay literally went bankrupt) and we dont even know any context for it.

The Yato feat of slowing his Law via his own could very easily just but summed up as PIS seeing as how it was a major plot point in the series and literally had to happen for K3 to even happen since if it didnt Hajun would have literally nuked everything. Hell this is still a weakened Hajun as when hes the Throne God, Hajun actually gets weaker due to the infinite souls clinging to him.

The last one involving Merc is about how he has a slim to none chance to erase the possibility of Hajun ever becoming a God, and Merc’s power have been shown to negate Acausality. That could instead just be used as a feat for Throne God Merc’s power as the Throne is supposed to give a big boost in power to everyone that isnt Hajun. Theres also that Hajun doesnt have the Tumor for this.

Not quite sure about High 1-A Hajun. One one hand he kind of fodderiszes the other 1-A's to a massive degree

On the other hand he's still bound by the same system (Taikyoku) as the rest.