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Shinza Banshou downgrade

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Neutral on this until I read finish reading KKK and Paradise Lost myself, but it seems to make sense. Imho I'd usually prefer people to read its source material before making any CRT threads to upgrade or downgrade because it makes it much easier on yourself.
 
At the moment what Tony_di_bugalu and TISSG7Redgrave are saying makes the most sense to me and I also disagree with the CRT based on what they have said.
 
I agree with Tony and grave aswell. Iirc the acting Godhead can freely use the singularity functions as they deem fit, be it a “wall” against intruders, a concept generator, or even a law emulator used to replicate the previous Gods’ various abilities.

According to this brief overview of the Singularity.

that I think relates to the Gods’ standing is pretty much its “depth”.

The depth of the Singularity varies in accordance with the ruling deity’s law strength (Taikyoku/Taiji). As such, Singularities generated by a God with “higher” quality would be immeasurably “deeper” than those of lower quality, and therefore will not be “drilled” or “crossed” without adequate strength.

So the higher the gods are, the deeper their Singularity becomes, with each level being completely transcendental to the last, or perhaps a greater scale (as shown in the comparisons of Mercurius’and Hajun’s Singularities).
 
TISSG7Redgrave said:
We know it takes forever because of the godhead itself. If the taiji is the same then at most it takes a breath or so to reach the throne. But if even one taiji is off then you are going down places that won't lead u where you want to. Merc noted this with ren vs rein which already shows despite the difference in numbers not being hajun levels they won't reach the serpent at all. Hell Hajun is specifically bottomless if he clashes with another Hadou as no matter how long it takes Yato or anyone else will not reach it (He's the strongest god and thus with the way his power is its impossible to get to him head-on). Gudous can reach it because they are not clashing with the godhead as Yakou demonstrated (Doe because gudous are generally weaker anyway so yeah...). Also note that singularities because they are powered by the gods are essentially in the god's color so the god even painted the singularity which even DI notes how their color paints the information within that place.
Click to expand...
I mean that just supports my point. Them taking forever to reach the bottom does not appear to be because of a transcendent difference in size itself but rather some other unknown(At least to me) esoteric properties. Also painting information inside singularity =/= singularity being a painting. We already know singularity consists of multiple realms that can be "painted" on, two of them being shown to us one being compared to paper(also containing the main multiverse) and the next being compared to a blank slate.
TISSG7Redgrave said:
Mibu is the bottom of the relationship iirc so... From what I gathered what Mibu slashed to Hajun was not his strongest strike just a flash of his divine power but it did nothing to the throne as Hajun was still there only the souls clinging onto Hajun (which well made Hajun stronger lolz)

The throne is only there for the god to hold its weight as all of them could just snap creation from weight alone. Merc vs Rein's side affect was its destruction. All it did was have more areas but the thrones existence was still above that of creation and the singularity as a whole due to how one must use the singularity to reach that place being at its bottom (only if you even have the same taiji otherwise as mentioned above you're not reaching it).
Click to expand...
From what I have gathered, both the singularity and the throne appear to rise when the cosmology is increased by the throne god. So from what it appears it always scales by some unknown factor to the current God's taikyoku. Maybe in Hajun's case it was such that the strongest attack from a Taikyoku 65(?) can destroy it.
TISSG7Redgrave said:
That text is where Yakou iirc was trying to look at the gods prior to the current heaven.
Click to expand...
Allright, but I don't think it matters much. The singularity in question there was Hajun's, which is already infinitely expanding by his nature. So applying quotes from there generally isn't exactly the best idea.

regardless, to sum my conclusions up till now:
1) Taking forever to reach the bottom of the singularity is not explictly because of size as they can ignore the depth once it stops getting powered by the throne god. Hence this should not be used as an argument for singularity depth to be transcendent in size.
2) The throne should not have a tier inaccessible from the singularity since it is literally the bottom of it.
3) There isn't any difference beyond the canvas as vast as the difference between the painting and the painter itself, which is crucial to getting higher into 1-A. The singularity stuff, arguably not even being clear enough to be declared a transcendence, is not even remotely explict enough to consider the difference to be that big.
4) The singularity is not part of any painting, and hence the quote "No matter how fiery the fire portrayed inside the painting, it cannot burn reality" will not apply to it.

Now, whether taikyoku values are transcendent or not is questionable( I don't think it is), but from my experience we don't exactly index how many layers into 1-A something is, so that can perhaps be saved for another thread. The main point here is the High 1-A rating should be downgraded to simply 1-A.



Infinity_Shun said:
that I think relates to the Gods’ standing is pretty much its “depth”.

The depth of the Singularity varies in accordance with the ruling deity’s law strength (Taikyoku/Taiji). As such, Singularities generated by a God with “higher” quality would be immeasurably “deeper” than those of lower quality, and therefore will not be “drilled” or “crossed” without adequate strength.

So the higher the gods are, the deeper their Singularity becomes, with each level being completely transcendental to the last, or perhaps a greater scale (as shown in the comparisons of Mercurius’and Hajun’s Singularities).
Click to expand...
I mean as I already said Taikyoku values being transcendences is also questionable, and if singularity size actually literally scaled to the taikyoku values then by the absolute law of the Shinza verse the lower god would not have been able to go through it even after it stopped getting powered by the god.

Also I wonder where you are getting the "or perhaps a greater scale (as shown in the comparisons of Mercurius’and Hajun’s Singularities)." because the comparison shown for that does not even directly states the difference is infinite. It was more so an implication.
 
With both how no law will affect the higher one and the fact that to reach the throne which one must bypass the singularity that is powered by said godhead it notes that u can't even challenge them properly and just get rekt at any practical point so you just fall because you won't even be able to have a match against them so there is a point to why its a transcendence. Shun kinda notes that you have to have a higher quality to "drill" in so it further shows that less taiji will never even reach the "bottom". Singularities can be generated by a clash of law but to reach that specific bottom is a completely different story.

Mibu's law is simply to create the slashes and attacks that cut regardless of what he does so its not his strongest attack per say as its more to what he does by default casual or not. Again the story says its him exercising his divine power but it doesn't indicate it was all he had just that its all he can do.

ゆえに当然、絵という概念に付随する諸々が適応される。例えば､同じ箇所で何度も重ね塗りをしていると、筆圧によって画布に穴が空く。
覇道太極のぶつかり合い、異なる法と法の鬩ぎ合いが起こった場所では、世界がその圧に耐え切れず、穴を生じさせてしまう。
そうした場所を、特異点と言う。


Here it mentions the painting example again in where two colors of taiji clash so the world can't withstand it and a hole known as the singularity is made. With DI also mentioning this

The fact singularity is just part of creation and has to be dyed in the god's color is very noticeable to how the god just paints their hegemony onto anything nonstop. In DI here Machina notes the color of the information is used by the godhead. The added fact that the singularity would often be colorless like Yakou's taiji as the quote above that I mentioned previously also added how he had to increase his soul to be "deeper" and more powerful to keep going. One part of that also mentions that it is a plain space that goes on forever. A colorless taiji, neither medicinal nor poisonous, but simply existing. Also why wouldn't the singularity apply to the painting part when it was mentioned the god dyes it in their color while also being before one reaches the throne itself because the throne is the highest part last i checked and that was just used more as a way for the gods to not crush reality for only existing because otherwise nothing would be left from their sheer weight.
 
TISSG7Redgrave said:
With both how no law will affect the higher one and the fact that to reach the throne which one must bypass the singularity that is powered by said godhead it notes that u can't even challenge them properly and just get rekt at any practical point so you just fall because you won't even be able to have a match against them so there is a point to why its a transcendence. Shun kinda notes that you have to have a higher quality to "drill" in so it further shows that less taiji will never even reach the "bottom". Singularities can be generated by a clash of law but to reach that specific bottom is a completely different story.
Click to expand...
I mean that's fair but as I have pointed out, to get higher into 1-A you need some transcendence at least on the scale of getting from 10-B to 1-A in the first place. So Taikyoku can be as unsurmountable as it wants but that doesn't really help it's case much.

TISSG7Redgrave said:
Mibu's law is simply to create the slashes and attacks that cut regardless of what he does so its not his strongest attack per say as its more to what he does by default casual or not. Again the story says its him exercising his divine power but it doesn't indicate it was all he had just that its all he can do.
Click to expand...
Well calling it his "strongest slash" does kinda imply it's all he had.


TISSG7Redgrave said:
Here it mentions the painting example again in where two colors of taiji clash so the world can't withstand it and a hole known as the singularity is made. With DI also mentioning this

The fact singularity is just part of creation and has to be dyed in the god's color is very noticeable to how the god just paints their hegemony onto anything nonstop. In DI here Machina notes the color of the information is used by the godhead. The added fact that the singularity would often be colorless like Yakou's taiji as the quote above that I mentioned previously also added how he had to increase his soul to be "deeper" and more powerful to keep going. One part of that also mentions that it is a plain space that goes on forever. A colorless taiji, neither medicinal nor poisonous, but simply existing. Also why wouldn't the singularity apply to the painting part when it was mentioned the god dyes it in their color while also being before one reaches the throne itself because the throne is the highest part last i checked and that was just used more as a way for the gods to not crush reality for only existing because otherwise nothing would be left from their sheer weight.
Click to expand...

Again, as I pointed out the singularity is just a hole/tunnel that falls through a long series of realms until it reaches the throne, with each of them being "paintable". That's what they are painting on when they refer to painting in the singularity. And the quote applying to something inside the painting will not apply to it because it's literally a qualitatively higher space consisting of a chain of realms that can be "painted" on. Treating it as something drawn in a painting makes 0 sense.
 
I mean with everything we have it indicates how far 1 taiji can literally stray from the weaker god both in other ways

And sure I do have to point out it doesn't indicate its exclusive to Mibu who is one of the weaker gods (being 60 not 65) its just that he could do it and that his law would just make his strikes automatically cut smth due to how he is a living blade. We have points to how the throne is just smth a god would use only to make sure they sit right cuz without that pretty sure everything is out of the table (The quotes above should show that the throne is simply there for withstanding the weight of a god which isn't exclusive to just one god but a god that uses taiji).

Its to illustrate how the gods don't really see anything even smth like the singularity is nothing to them. Hell taiji is literally the be all end all of all things being the origin of all things.

太極――陰陽道における万物の元始であり、宇宙の中心点を指す概念。彼ら御門の人間にとっては常識的な単語だが、その意味するとこは茫漠としてはっきりしない。

「俗に考えれば、不可能なことがなくなるのかもしれん。万物の元始には総ての事象の元があるゆえ、そこに触れればあらゆる知と力を引き出せる。総てを悟り、総てを成せる」

In both here it shows the significance of taiji to the grand scheme of things.

己が法則で森羅万象を制圧する太極と、己が法則のみ森羅万象から外れるという太極である。

The former is hadou which mentions it dominates all of creation while the latter is gudou which is inward letting it be outside of creation and detatched. This kinda shows the singularity is part of this creation. And iirc all concepts, phenomenon and laws came from the singularity which Yakou mentions are not even one were taiji:

無論、世に法則といったものは無限に近く存在するし、それら一つ一つが太極というわけではない。



What's the point of talking about the series of realms even? Like elaborate further cuz I'm not exactly seeing the point. The fact the god powers it up just means whether the challenger hadou can reach them or not. It can take a bit but if the challenger has no same taiji they will just fall endlessly and forever not being able to reach the throne. Hajun's is special in how his taiji just rises but it doesn't take away having a smaller taiji will result in nothing. The point of the quote is the singularity and all its info are painted in the god's color which means not even the singularity is extempt from this painting metaphor the gods are known for. I'm not sure about this point as it was already shown how the singularity is again powered by the god. I mean weaker gudous bypass it easily but that's only via not clashing with Hajun's law cuz as even the narration points out its practically impossible (Yato was already digging but wasn't getting much results anyway).

何百年、何千年、いやもしかしたら、それ以上かけても辿り着けない超深奥に坐するモノ。曲がりなりにも神格に対して不適切だが、怪物と言うしかないかもしれない。

It calls how Hajun's divinity cannot be reached even after hundreds and thousands of years with them calling Hajun not as a god but a monster.

それは資格がなければ天地が引っくり返っても不可能なこと。曰く太極……と言うんだったか。細かいことは分からんが、要は同じ土俵に上がらないと何も通用しないはずなのだ。

Yato compares that without the same taiji even if heaven and earth are turned over it will mean nothing to the stronger one. (Not much I can add for this but it illustrates how important Taiji is when clashing against the gods)
 
After hearing Grave's arguments, I disagree with the downgrade. Currently siding with him.
 
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TISSG7Redgrave said:
I mean with everything we have it indicates how far 1 taiji can literally stray from the weaker god both in other ways

And sure I do have to point out it doesn't indicate its exclusive to Mibu who is one of the weaker gods (being 60 not 65) its just that he could do it and that his law would just make his strikes automatically cut smth due to how he is a living blade. We have points to how the throne is just smth a god would use only to make sure they sit right cuz without that pretty sure everything is out of the table (The quotes above should show that the throne is simply there for withstanding the weight of a god which isn't exclusive to just one god but a god that uses taiji).
Click to expand...
Such statements are also given for singularity and all. But we already know they are not above all forms of the singularity(Such as a "God powered" singularity) which the Hadou Gods are not above. The same could very well apply to the throne.


TISSG7Redgrave said:
The former is hadou which mentions it dominates all of creation while the latter is gudou which is inward letting it be outside of creation and detatched. This kinda shows the singularity is part of this creation. And iirc all concepts, phenomenon and laws came from the singularity which Yakou mentions are not even one were taiji:
Click to expand...
The arguments are pretty vague, and explaining it being part of some "creation" of unknown scope or context still doesn't really address why the singularity is part of some "painting".

And I don't deny the importance of Taikyoku in the Shinzaverse. just that it doesn't really matter for tiering unless someone can explictly prove the difference is as big as the difference between Taikyoku 1 and a normal human.

TISSG7Redgrave said:
What's the point of talking about the series of realms even? Like elaborate further cuz I'm not exactly seeing the point. The fact the god powers it up just means whether the challenger hadou can reach them or not. It can take a bit but if the challenger has no same taiji they will just fall endlessly and forever not being able to reach the throne. Hajun's is special in how his taiji just rises but it doesn't take away having a smaller taiji will result in nothing. The point of the quote is the singularity and all its info are painted in the god's color which means not even the singularity is extempt from this painting metaphor the gods are known for. I'm not sure about this point as it was already shown how the singularity is again powered by the god. I mean weaker gudous bypass it easily but that's only via not clashing with Hajun's law cuz as even the narration points out its practically impossible (Yato was already digging but wasn't getting much results anyway).
Click to expand...
There wasn't much point to the "chain of realms" per se. It was more so about how singularity is not part of some painting but instead holds structures that are "painted" on. Also the rest of that just supports my original point. The endless drilling is because of Taikyoku, not the increase in depth. Hence it cannot be used to prove an infinite difference. Whether Taikyoku values themselves are transcendences or not is not as relevant to the thread as we don't really index the number of layers something is into 1-A on the profiles(At least to my knowledge). The original intent is the High 1-A should be removed.

Being honest difference between Taikyoku values are just obligatory wank because of politics and consensus
 
So far I agree with the downgrade, idk if there’s enough for the high 1-A rating.

the comparison to how 2-A is treated seems to fit rather nicely here.
I will continue to keep up with the thread and change my vote if the against side makes a solid counter
 
I agree with Toni and Grave, disagree with the downgrade.

Regarding staff I know that Ultima knows this thread is happening and has looked at it but he obviously hasnt posted yet so either hes waiting to see more arguments or he just doesnt wanna get involved.
 
Ive tried to contact Raven about this as they made the Upgrade but seems they are busy irl.
 
agree with downgrades = 11-12

disagree with Downgrade = 11

rest are neutral or disagree
 
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Just wanna point out something

"Heck, it seems to be implied that the throne itself has to be modified to withstand a bigger cosmology(I could swear I had seen a more explicit scan of this but sadly couldn’t find it at the moment). Hence it should not have a static tier independent of any expansions of the lower cosmology at all."

by this implication...Throne would have already imploded but considering the Avesta news (though considering no one here bothered to search about it no wonder), so yeah, inaccurate and wrong
 
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By Avesta news do you mean the stuff about Bahlavan or the stuff involving Mashyana or the Glossary section about the Multiverse?
 
Everything12 said:
By Avesta news do you mean the stuff about Bahlavan or the stuff involving Mashyana or the Glossary section about the Multiverse?
Click to expand...
All of them tbh are expansion on the cosmology, but yeah it already proved there's some kind of system without including in Mercurius shenanigans

also Multiverse was already a thing like in Satanael reign, and this is pretty clear cut considering Mercurius is explicitly stated to be from another universe
 
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