Shinza Banshou downgrade

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I still fully disagree but anyway ignoring that, would Hajun not still qualify for H1A by himself? One of the big arguments is seemingly that no one would scale to Hajuns Singularity, but Hajun himself would cause its you know... his.

High 1-A Hajun is based on a factual misunderstanding that his Taikyouku is infinite and thus he is infinite ^ infinite above 1-As.

Even then, that only yields 1-A+

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if SleepyTBubble and TISSG7Redgrave, who are two of our four most knowledgeable members regarding this subject, both disagree, and the people who push for a downgrade haven't even properly examined all of our explanation blogs, this downgrade seems very hasty and unreliable.

 

[PsychoWarper]

High 1-A Hajun is based on a factual misunderstanding that his Taikyouku is infinite and thus he is infinite ^ infinite above 1-As.

Even then, that only yields 1-A+

Hmm well he does fodderise multiple other Gods in a 1 vs 4 and theres the whole quote where Yato himself says that to Hajun he is no different than a 3-D being, that could be chalked up to hyperbole but it is a God with Nigh-Omniscience and is literally talking about himself so I guess maybe not H1A atm but 1-A+ (If this goes through)?

Imma have to go look through all of the Singularity quotes since theres a bunch of “infinite” stuff about it.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

and the people who push for a downgrade haven't even properly examined all of our explanation blogs, this downgrade seems very hasty and unreliable.

this is ur opinion not a fact, or have u asked every user that disagreed if they read it?

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

To be fair, a bunch of new users are the ones agreeing with the downgrade. And more experienced users disagree with the downgrade. Nothing wrong with new users giving input, but they may simply be unaware

The only person who have been this wiki for a long time who agree with the downgrade are Matt, TOAA, and I think YungMazi/Shiva

 

[YungManzi]

I'm gonna be honest.

I read 3 blogs, some pages, and a good amount of this thread, and I can't see where High 1-A comes from. Like I can look at Unwritten explanations and clearly understand them, but here... I just don't understand it. Which is why I'm neutral.

Honestly looking towards agreeing with the downgrade though. And in general this seems like a case of overgenerous ratings, and fans purposefully taking high ends. For instance, there's a source on the shinza banshou page which says Hajun has an infinite taiji value while everything else; evidence presented on his page and this thread, suggests that that's not the case.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Honestly ive looked at The Unwritten stuff and talked to people that have been reading it and from what ive heard some of the Unwritten H1A stuff is out of context, if Shinza loses its H1A the. Unwritten and most (Doesnt have to be all) other H1A verses should at least have their tiers legitimately looked over.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Hmm well he does fodderise multiple other Gods in a 1 vs 4 and theres the whole quote where Yato himself says that to Hajun he is no different than a 3-D being, that could be chalked up to hyperbole but it is a God with Nigh-Omniscience and is literally talking about himself so I guess maybe not H1A atm but 1-A+ (If this goes through)?

I explained how foderrizing people doesn't make you jump tiers in 1-A. Neither does being merely "ifninitely above" someone.

 

[San-Kakarot]

Is there any evidence that Hajun transcends an infinite base line 1-A character in order for him to be High 1-A?

 

[Everything12]

Shouldn't we get the basic premise of the downgrade dealt with first before we begin debating what they will end up as if the downgrade goes through?

Afterall neither side has a clear majority of votes and more staff opinions sre needed before anything happens.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Is there any evidence that Hajun transcends an infinite base line 1-A character in order for him to be High 1-A?

There isn’t as far as I know.

Shouldn't we get the basic premise of the downgrade dealt with first before we begin debating what they will end up as if the downgrade goes through?

Afterall neither side has a clear majority of votes and more staff opinions sre needed before anything happens.

We should. It was getting sidetracked.

 

[Darksmash]

I am just concerned about if we suddenly downgrade the Masadaverse based on a brief comparatively uninformed discussion, compared to the lengthy discussions backed by extremely elaborate explanation blogs that upgraded it in the first place.

Those threads were more elaborate because they had established all details about the cosmology of the verse from scratch
I am not here to invalidate all that information. I am here to argue why they are not high 1-A but just regular 1-A. That only requires addressing some very specific points in those threads. The rest of the info is just fine. And measuring the validity of the thread by the Shinza fans disagreeing with it isn't exactly the best idea, since from an emotional point of view it makes sense why they will wanna disagree with it. But from a logical point of view me and Red seem to agree with more things than we disagree on, based on our discussion on this thread. It could just be a matter of not being knowledgeable on the current tiering system or standards on the wiki.

One of the big arguments is seemingly that no one would scale to Hajuns Singularity, but Hajun himself would cause its you know... his.

And he would have just as many layers as his taikyoku, so an ever increasing amount of 1-A.

Also, to the people criticizing me for not having read the source material, you all know damn well that 90% of it is untranslated anyway. Maybe I could have had a slightly better picture after completing Dies Irae, but majority of it wouldn't have mattered either way. Because of a hectic personal schedule I wanted to do this thread by the end of this month only., with it being impossible for me to complete Dies Irae in this short window without hurting my mental health.

I have not yet received any satisfactory counter to my main points. When some of my points are answered it brings up more points, but the main points are still uncountered:-
1) The singularity is not inside the painting. Hence those quotes cannot be applied to it.
2) The singularity expansions being transcendent in size because of being undrillable by the challenger. However, being undrillable is because of the involvement of the throne god, and the challenger cannot go through, but apparently they can once it stops being backed by the god, meaning it either didn't retain it's size or the factor blocking the challenger was not size in the first place.

This is really straightforward if people stop being judgemental and actually read the arguments presented. These questions arise when we are only presented with the current given explanations of the verse on the wiki. It would be really helpful if the knowledgeable fans can actually provide some satisfactory explanations instead of acting like elitists.

 

[Darksmash]

Honestly ive looked at The Unwritten stuff and talked to people that have been reading it and from what ive heard some of the Unwritten H1A stuff is out of context, if Shinza loses its H1A the. Unwritten and most (Doesnt have to be all) other H1A verses should at least have their tiers legitimately looked over.

I do actually believe a lot of other Tier 1 verses are exaggerated as well(For instance High 1-A DC is very suspicious). If possible I will try to come to creating threads for them one day too. But that depends on what kind of conclusion this thread reaches. Cause I need to decide whether it's even worth trying with so many elitists around here.

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

(For instance High 1-A DC is very suspicious

No shit sherlock

 

[ShivaShakti]

No shit sherlock

Yeah DC's entire cosmology kinda shit the bed when Death Metal came out

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

Yeah DC's entire cosmology kinda shit the bed when Death Metal came out

DC: Has a strong and OP cosmology
Death Metal:

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

Guys why are we meming DC do that on another thread

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

Guys why are we meming DC do that on another thread

Fine

 

[ZERO7772]

It's funny that the best thing most people disagreeing with bringing up is "you didn't read the VN" when there is barely like 2-3 people on this wiki who read KKK and these people don't even care about the verse or the wiki that much anymore

Dunno about Red, but Tony and PsychoWarper both didn't read the novel and they are like the only people debating their point of view here instead of acting like elites.

Not to call the people who disagree with downgrade liers or ignorant, but do see my point here right? It shows when a chunk are just people accusing others of not reading a super niche untranslated novel instead of discussing the matter at hand

OP is trying to explain why they don't fit the High 1-A rating yet Ant is sitting here telling him why won't he counter every line in the cosmology blog.

Making an upgrade for a super niche untranslated novel using moonrunes scans with vague contexts then acting like the other side doesn't deserve to show their opinion to you cuz they didn't get the chance is pretty questionable method of debating.

It goes both ways is all I am saying.

 

[Paul_Frank]

It's not really a questionable method of debating, it's calling into question how qualified someone is to debate something they don't know.

The blog and stuff was made for a reason, and said reason was to stop exactly this, someone taking one or two things and trying to come up with a separate interpretation with extremely limited knowledge.

You can say that the people disagreeing didn't read it, but even those people have more knowledge on the verse still, having had extensive conversations about the untranslated stuff with people who have read it, so I'd argue they have a better case for disagreeing than the people who agree do.

You make it seem like it's an elitist thing, and you can argue that, but the fact remains, if someone self admittedly, does not know the part of a series they're talking about, what they say should be looked at with more scrutiny. The fact of the matter is that this thread is someone who did not read it going against the words of several people who did read it in other threads, a blog, etc, and all it is is looking at a small amount of the same scans used for the upgrade and trying to interpret them differently.

So what it boils down to is the interpretation of a speaker of the language who read it, vs the interpretation of someone who has not and does not have context, so people taking the position of "you didn't read it" is very understandable in that case.

 

[PsychoWarper]

As much as I dislike CRTs I will generally try to explain myself when I take part in one as much as I dislike it

 

[Darksmash]

That is completely understandable, but it should not take precedence over the arguments themselves, which seem to have been completely ignored to call me out for not being as knowledgeable.

 

[ZERO7772]

It's not really a questionable method of debating, it's calling into question how qualified someone is to debate something they don't know.

And how do you know that?

The blog and stuff was made for a reason, and said reason was to stop exactly this, someone taking one or two things and trying to come up with a separate interpretation with extremely limited knowledge

Which is being debated here.

You can say that the people disagreeing didn't read it, but even those people have more knowledge on the verse still

Based on what exactly? I am talking about the people who are answering simply "yes" or "no"

You make it seem like it's an elitist thing, and you can argue that, but the fact remains, if someone self admittedly, does not know the part of a series they're talking about,

Pretty fair opinion but if the other side presented logical point of view that goes in lines with what presented in the wiki system and the context given it's still a valid point of view. Because the point of disagreement could be how the tiring system itself is being presented not knowledge contest about the verse

So what it boils down to is the interpretation of a speaker of the language who read it, vs the interpretation of someone who has not and does not have context, so people taking the position of "you didn't read it" is very understandable in that case.

And I am telling you most of these people didn't read said "language"

 

[ZERO7772]

As much as I dislike CRTs I will generally try to explain myself when I take part in one as much as I dislike it

Just don't make them

 

[ZERO7772]

That is completely understandable, but it should not take precedence over the arguments themselves, which seem to have been completely ignored to call me out for not being as knowledgeable.

It's kinda your fault for bribing up that you didn't even finish DI, this is not a knowledge contest but it still stab you credibility because the wiki here runs of that mentality lol

 

[PsychoWarper]

Just don't make them

I rarely do, the only ones I make are small and just fixing basic stuff.

 

[Darksmash]

It's kinda your fault for bribing up that you didn't even finish DI, this is not a knowledge contest but it still stab you credibility because the wiki here runs of that mentality lol

Well I wanted to be as honest about this as I can.

 

[ZERO7772]

You are too pure for this

 

[QuasiYuri]

I agree with the downgrade and ZERO/Yung opinions as well.

We can't just say "some guys established cosmology prior to this so if it goes against their interpretation it means others are in the wrong"; that's how more than one verse already took way too much time to get revised (and the fact that several tier 1 suffered from this already doesn't help either).

Shinza is no exception.

 

[Infera28]

I'm neutral for now.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, given that @Warren_Valion is missing, @Qliphoth_Bacikal seems uninterested, and @SleepyTBubble and @TISSG7Redgrave disagree, and they are the only members here who know the verse very well, I am just saying that all the people arguing for a downgrade should at least thoroughly familiarise yourselves with the following wiki pages, and preferably read through the blogs, before you do something drastic and likely ill-considered:

Shinza Banshou

For detailed information about this series, visit the Shinza Bansho Wiki. Shinza Banshou, also known as the Masadaverse and previously called Kami-Sama Series, is a series of visual novels written and done by Takashi Masada. There are a total of four main entries written by him: Paradise Lost...

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Shinza Banshou Explanation Page

1 General Information 2 Die Ewigkeit 2.1 Holy Relic 2.2 Levels of Die Ewigkeit 3 Distortion 3.1 Degrees of distortion 4 Taikyoku 4.1 Levels of Taikyoku 5 Throne 6 Hadou Gods 7 Gudou Gods 8 Apoptosis 9 Singularity 10 Sensory 11 List of Powers and Abilities In Shinza, the cornerstone of power is...

vsbattles.fandom.com

God Physiology (Shinza Banshō)

Emanation (流出) is when one's desire starts to emanate out to the rest of the World, extending to all of creation and painting it over with their reality, effectively becoming a literal god of the new world. This is limited to those of Hegemony, whose World and its Law affect others, and those of...

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Adjusting Interview Reinhard's AP Justification

vsbattles.fandom.com

Methuselah: The Concept Behind the Man and the Worldly Order

vsbattles.fandom.com

Miscellaneous Dies Irae Profile Changes and Additions

vsbattles.fandom.com

Apostle Physiology

vsbattles.fandom.com

Reality Warping

vsbattles.fandom.com

Qliphoth Bacikal's Miscellaneous Shinza Stuff

vsbattles.fandom.com

Qliphoth Bacikal's Shinza Bansho (K3 VFB QnA Interview)

vsbattles.fandom.com

Qliphoth Bacikal's Shinza Bansho CRT Prep

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Amakasu]

About the unwritten thing, the only myth I see is the cactean heiracrchy Trancending the heiracrchy of stories, but heiracrchy of stories in itself can be considered high 1A

 

[Amakasu]

I disagree with the downgrade

 

[Darksmash]

and they are the only members here who know the verse very well, I am just saying that all the people arguing for a downgrade should at least thoroughly familiarise yourselves with the following wiki pages, and preferably read through the blogs, before you do something drastic and likely ill-considered:

I think it's just a matter of misunderstanding the tiering system or the specific arguments that actually achieved High 1-A. Because from my discussion with Red here his view of the cosmology actually aligns with the things I pointed out. And I have already read through most of the relevant pages and threads multiple times before making this.

 

[Antvasima]

Can you summarise the specific areas in which you think that there has been a misunderstanding for me please?

Also, I would prefer if you read through all of the linked pages.

 

[Gabs22_Gamer]

I think it's just a matter of misunderstanding the tiering system or the specific arguments that actually achieved High 1-A. Because from my discussion with Red here his view of the cosmology actually aligns with the things I pointed out. And I have already read through most of the relevant pages and threads multiple times before making this.

By the way given for the discussion at this point.

 

[Gabs22_Gamer]

Anyway, unwatcthing thread.

 

[Antvasima]

These threads may also be useful:

Masadaverse Discussion thread 29: https://archive.vn/7W0tV
Masadaverse Discussion thread 30: https://archive.vn/8ueAJ
Masadaverse Discussion thread 31: https://archive.vn/ccB3a

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

What's with the idea the singularity is not part of how the god paints the world doe? Like again it IS within the territory of the godhead so nothing is wrong with how they say it is painted and it still goes with the reality-fiction interaction due to how it didn't matter to them. I mean if the throne doesn't why would the singularity matter? It's a tunnel to get to the throne yeah but doesn't exactly mean they can reach the throne with the godhead's outflow not allowing weaker ones to get there. They will cross but not to their destination. Hell the fact the gods can enter it easily by mere clashing and just fighting as a side-effect can show how it is like but the issue is that they won't reach the godhead if they are even one taiji off. The gods are above the throne which is way above the singularity that is above the lowest parts of the multiverse and such with taiji being an even bigger fish thx to how any god needs that throne to not just obliterate it.

I mean you have to already fight the godhead already if you are the only challenger and not have another hadou anyway.

Also I'm pretty sure masada said that the depth of the throne even is based on the god's strength which would making the challenger having to cross the threshold of being as strong to battle the god of proper.

Q: 座の深さ=神の強さですか?

A: そう思っていただいて構いません。

Depth of the Throne = Strength of the God?

You can think of it that way.

 

[Darksmash]

Can you summarise the specific areas in which you think that there has been a misunderstanding for me please?

mainly the very specific arguments needed to reach High 1-A
from the upgrade threads, The strongest argument for the tier was treating singularity as the equivalent of a thing painted on the canvas and applying the scans that talk about Reality>Painting inaccessibility to it in relation to the Hadou Gods. However, that is also just as wrong because the singularity is very literally a hole inside the canvas itself, not a painting of a hole.

The other one is based on arguing that somehow Hadou Gods scale beyond all expansions of the singularity, including the ones which they cannot drill through which is just ???
From my discussion with Red, he also said that the obstruction is only because of the throne god, hence one of the following are true:-
1) The gods with lower taikyoku do not scale above the depth of the singularity of the god with higher taikyoku
2) The obstruction was not because of depth, but something else - this invalidates the point that the depth differences are transcendental because that relies on the challenger being unable to drill through the singularity of the throne god in the first place
3) Another possibility is that the depth of the singularity is not retained when the throne god stops backing it.
The high 1-A argument falls apart in all 3 cases. And all of this is just based on the information presented on the threads and the profiles.

What's with the idea the singularity is not part of how the god paints the world doe? Like again it IS within the territory of the godhead so nothing is wrong with how they say it is painted and it still goes with the reality-fiction interaction due to how it didn't matter to them. I mean if the throne doesn't why would the singularity matter? It's a tunnel to get to the throne yeah but doesn't exactly mean they can reach the throne with the godhead's outflow not allowing weaker ones to get there. They will cross but not to their destination. Hell the fact the gods can enter it easily by mere clashing and just fighting as a side-effect can show how it is like but the issue is that they won't reach the godhead if they are even one taiji off. The gods are above the throne which is way above the singularity that is above the lowest parts of the multiverse and such with taiji being an even bigger fish thx to how any god needs that throne to not just obliterate it.

I mean you have to already fight the godhead already if you are the only challenger and not have another hadou anyway.

Also I'm pretty sure masada said that the depth of the throne even is based on the god's strength which would making the challenger having to cross the threshold of being as strong to battle the god of proper.

It is part of their territory but it is not something drawn on a painting, but a hole on the paper itself on which the painting is done.

Also as I pointed out, and you also seem to agree, that them not being able to cross the singularity is explictly because of the involvement of the throne god. In that case they will not scale above that variation of the singularity which is being powered by the throne god, which leads us with regular 1-A

to clear up all misunderstandings, I would like to ask you instead- why exactly do you think the gods are High 1-A?