SHINZA 1-A THREAD (PART ONE)

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Avesta makes it clear that an individual, in order to reach the Throne, needs to meet certain qualifications: one is to be at least as powerful as the current Throne God, and the other one is to have Hadō traits which allow him to become the next Throne generation. Being able to create a Singularity doesn't entail that said someone can reach the Throne (Yato, in fact, couldn't reach the Throne of Hajun and wasn't able to drill through the final layer unlike Soujirou & Shiori did during their fight)

If so then why was Yato close to reaching the bottom when his powers were restored (he could he just died before he can finish the job even by his worlds)? Again Yato was just both out of juice for so long + loser status + Hajun is still that strong even without him paying attention.

と言うよりも、当人たちの意志に関係なくそうならざるを得ないのだ。
　覇道の太極とは、喩えるなら絵を描く行為に酷似している。みずからの理という色をもって、世界という画布に望む情景を描きあげること。
　ゆえに当然、絵という概念に付随する諸々が適用される。例えば、同じ箇所で何度も重ね塗りをしていると、筆圧によって画布に穴が空くような……
　そうした場所を、特異点と言う。覇道太極のぶつかり合い、異なる法と法の鬩ぎ合いが起こった場所では、世界がその圧に耐え切れず、穴を生じさせてしまうのだ。
　するとどうなるか、言うまでもなく当事者は落下する。世界の壁を飛び越えて、どこでもない場所を落ち続ける。
　その果てにあるもの、穴の底こそが太極座に他ならない。
ただし、底に達するまでの距離はまちまち。より強力な神格ほど、深い場所に座を設けているものだから、ものによっては何年経っても辿り着けないこともある。
　夜刀にとって、波旬はまさにそれだった。怨敵が座を握り、それに対抗するため穢土を起こし、今に至るも鬩ぎ合いを続けてきて、穴ならとうに空いているのに。
まだ届かない。まだ辿り着けない。激突の場所となった神州は、遙かな昔から落下し続けているにも拘らず。
これは異常極まる深さだろう。なぜなら夜刀の先代、すなわち彼らが乗り越えた旧神の座は、せいぜい常人が呼吸を止めていられる時間で到達することが出来たのだから。
　その神にしろ言語を絶する力を有していた事実を鑑みれば、波旬の度外れた強大さは押して知るべしというものだ。
　何百年、何千年、いやもしかしたら、それ以上かけても辿り着けない超深奥に坐(ま)するモノ。曲がりなりにも神格に対して不適切だが、怪物と言うしかないかもしれない。
　だが夜刀は、それに微塵も臆していない。むしろ勝ちを確信しているかのように、昂ぶることなく言葉を紡ぐ。
「感じるぞ、座は近い。もうすぐ底に到達する」

tldr: It talks about how a clash of Taiji = painting a picture. Paint over and over, it creates a hole which is the singularity. Stronger deity = deeper hole. He hadn't reach the bottom after 8k years BUT the last line even said he was close to it. And can feel the bottom.

「どうも未だ、底まで達してはいないようだが」

「それほど奴の座は深い。そういうことだ」
　意味の分からない会話の応酬。だがそれが、喩えようもなく不吉なものに感じてしまう。
　何か、俺たちをせせら嗤っている奴がすぐ近くにいるかのようで…

「あと薄皮一枚。その程度だろう。俺としてはそれが唯一の無念だが、あるいはこれで良かったかもしれない。おまえたちが真に切り開くと言うのなら、お膳立てはここまでだ」

This next one tells that Yakou asking why they hadn't reach the bottom with Yato commenting that's how deep it is. He lamented not finishing that final layer and that resulted in Shiori and Mibu having to fight to open it.

Hell Masada even said had Habaki lost, Yato would have used him like a meat shield to take down Hajun so he was gonna reach it eventually. Hajun is just that deep.

So it stands to reason that technically weaker gods using the singularity can reach it. The Gudou gang could do that and traverse, Yato made one despite being far weaker than Hajun, it's just more of whether you want to fight your enemy underleveled so it technically is a requirement to have the same strength as the Godhead because if not you will die in a head to head confrontation otherwise.

Obviously the premise is for the Godhead to die. Avesta did show strength isn't enough as Mags wasn't a Hadou trait until he created a personality armor to become a Hadou. As long as someone that is a rank 7 can get the means to traverse, arriving at the throne isn't exactly the hardest thing in the world. Hadous just have the obstacle of constantly clashing with the Godhead whether they like it or not.

That's just Yato being able to reach the Throne of the Fourth Heaven in a few istants, and the statement wasn't even made by Yakou.

Hmmm right. Confused it a bit but the narration states that is the comparison. Yato didn't complete the singularity all the way down oof.

Also, i don't really think using Atwiki as a reliable source is a great idea...

Atwiki archives a lot of things. Iirc Masada uses that from time to time to answer questions. Don't remember the specifics but it is useful. Especially since it supports a lot of things.

 

[Mugen-Kokutosho-Jigoku]

If so then why was Yato close to reaching the bottom when his powers were restored (he could he just died before he can finish the job even by his worlds)?

Because you can get close to the final layer without being able to drill through it, that's literally what the game implies (multiple times too).

Again Yato was just both out of juice for so long + loser status + Hajun is still that strong even without him paying attention.

Yato was out of juice...? You do remember that Tokoyo blatantly states that once she activates her Taikyoku to make Yato awaken again, she compares it to an act of re-birth? It doesn't make sense for Yato to be out of juice when he awakens due to literally being at full power. Moreover, i think what you're referring to is Yato """holding back""" against Habaki which is a different thing and its not entirely true (Masada even explains it in the K3 VFB: he was just reducing the environmental damage to the minimum and therefore focused more on AP than DC).

This next one tells that Yakou asking why they hadn't reach the bottom with Yato commenting that's how deep it is. He lamented not finishing that final layer and that resulted in Shiori and Mibu having to fight to open it.

He regrets it in the first moment, however he states (later on) that "it's for the better" which implies that he didn't expect to have to leave it to the Eastern Expedition, therefore resulting in Yato indirectly confirming that he can't drill past that layer.

Hell Masada even said had Habaki lost, Yato would have used him like a meat shield to take down Hajun so he was gonna reach it eventually. Hajun is just that deep.

We don't know how he was going to reach the Throne, that's the problem. And moreover, that's just an hypotetical "what-if" that Masada didn't really decide to explore further.

Atwiki archives a lot of things. Iirc Masada uses that from time to time to answer questions. Don't remember the specifics but it is useful. Especially since it supports a lot of things.

Ehhh, i do get that it stores a lot of useful informations but its still made by fans of the series so i wouldn't really use it as a kind of "official source" if you get what i mean.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

He regrets it in the first moment, however he states (later on) that "it's for the better" which implies that he didn't expect to have to leave it to the Eastern Expedition, therefore resulting in Yato indirectly confirming that he can't drill past that layer.

No because Yato doesnt want to emanate through all creation. If he reaches the throne it will be a world of stagnation. DI even elaborates Ren HATES this and refused to go beyond EFF in Rea's Route due to this very fact. It's basically a "Hell" for him. "It's for the better/best" doesn't imply he couldn't drill past it but he thinks its better he DIDN'T and left it to EE.

Yato was out of juice...? You do remember that Tokoyo blatantly states that once she activates her Taikyoku to make Yato awaken again, she compares it to an act of re-birth? It doesn't make sense for Yato to be out of juice when he awakens due to literally being at full power. Moreover, i think what you're referring to is Yato """holding back""" against Habaki which is a different thing and its not entirely true (Masada even explains it in the K3 VFB: he was just reducing the environmental damage to the minimum and therefore focused more on AP than DC).

I mean he clearly wasn't at 100 for the past 8k years. I meant it more his taiji was way below his peak (considering Ootake and Sukuna's were 50 and those two are the closest to Yato). And he wouldn't hold back because he needs the EE to overcome him. If not then he would have to use Habaki as a meat shield. He may not elaborate further but why imply he can't when he just died BEFORE the last part. That quote doesn't imply he couldn't, he died before he finished the drill and commented its deep as hell for that reason. He never implied he CANNOT. He just regretted leaving his work half-assed to a degree but was confident EE can find a way past the layer (Gudou's don't clash with the Godhead so they don't have the normal properties to just blast through and had to have Mibu and Shiori fight one another).

 

[Mugen-Kokutosho-Jigoku]

No because Yato doesnt want to emanate through all creation. If he reaches the throne it will be a world of stagnation. DI even elaborates Ren HATES this and refused to go beyond EFF in Rea's Route due to this very fact. It's basically a "Hell" for him. "It's for the better/best" doesn't imply he couldn't drill past it but he thinks its better he DIDN'T and left it to EE.

Which is why he wanted Habaki to prove himself worthy and to defeat him in a fight, which has nothing to do with the whole final layer thing given how at that time he already considered the Eastern Expedition to be worthy of taking down Hajun.

I mean he clearly wasn't at 100 for the past 8k years. I meant it more his taiji was way below his peak (considering Ootake and Sukuna's were 50 and those two are the closest to Yato).

I didn't use Taikyoku values when it comes to scaling due to both being inconsistent and "having many problems" according to Masada himself. That being said, in his weakened state he should still be above the likes of Mercurius given how Masada says that Ootake can kill Reinhard + he's stated to have transcended Mercurius when Yakou explores the Singularity + he has a statement about holding infinite anger and according to the Shinga Commandment this would result in Yato being infinitely stronger than Mercurius even in his weakened state.

And he wouldn't hold back because he needs the EE to overcome him.

I already explained what "holding back" in this case means. Moreover, Masada explains it in the K3 VFB.

If not then he would have to use Habaki as a meat shield. He may not elaborate further but why imply he can't when he just died BEFORE the last part. That quote doesn't imply he couldn't, he died before he finished the drill and commented its deep as hell for that reason. He never implied he CANNOT. He just regretted leaving his work half-assed to a degree but was confident EE can find a way past the layer (Gudou's don't clash with the Godhead so they don't have the normal properties to just blast through and had to have Mibu and Shiori fight one another).

He doesn't regret leaving it to the Eastern Expedition, that's literally the point: it says its for the better because that would act as the final trial for the EE. Also, do i need to remind you that Soujirou and Shiori, when they opened the final layer, were stated to be having the most powerful clash since the dawn of the Sixth Heaven and also Soujirou himself has a statement about being able to kill all the Tenmas (there's also a statement regarding both of them surpassing the average hegemony gods in terms of power, however i'm not sure what the metric here is so i won't add it).