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Thread mods can only grant permission for one post at a time. I'm 99% certain that Glassman can't just say "sure" and un-delete your last 5 posts, and I'm 100% certain that you'd need to keep asking him before each future post.
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SHINZA 1-A THREAD (PART ONE)
- Thread starter PrinceofPein
- Start date
- 12,662
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well i did ask you and Ant before just didn't get a response. Didn't know the hierarchy on how much I'm allowed on which staff I asked but yeah I already put on yours and Ant's message wall for that reason.
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Oh damn, I don't check my wall, as my wall says. And Ant's on vacation, idk how publicly he communicated that.
I won't have time to read this thread and your posts to see whether they're approve-worthy contributions for a bit.
Sorry for the late reply. Anyway, i did ask @GarrixianXD for permission on Discord the day before the deletition of my messages and she granted me it. However, it seems like i didn't know that i need to ask permission every single time i want to make a reply on the thread so my apologies for not following the rules of staff-only threads.
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I really don't understand how such a simple CRT derailed so much. Anyway, I read through the Blog (Which definitely will need to be improved on, once this is over), and translated a few of the raws myself, and they line up to what's said on the page, so I don't doubt the translation.
I agree with the Singularity being 1-A, based on the whole being deeper/under the Canvas of which everything is painted stuff, which shows a qualitative difference.
From my understanding laws broke through the Canvas in the first place, and can keep opening holes deeper into the singularity, so I have no issue with Taikyoku being 1-A.
Throne exists at the bottom of the Singularity, and seems to scale to everything that's been brought up thus far, plus a few other fancy things so 1-A is fine there as well.
I agree with the Singularity being 1-A, based on the whole being deeper/under the Canvas of which everything is painted stuff, which shows a qualitative difference.
From my understanding laws broke through the Canvas in the first place, and can keep opening holes deeper into the singularity, so I have no issue with Taikyoku being 1-A.
Throne exists at the bottom of the Singularity, and seems to scale to everything that's been brought up thus far, plus a few other fancy things so 1-A is fine there as well.
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,158
- 6,165
- Thread starter
- #86
Thank you for your evaluation.
The blog is not the official verse blog, just something meant strictly for Content Revision. The real one will be much more structured using this as the skeleton.
ShinMaximillion
Username Only- 183
- 138
Bump.
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From the blog, the following metaphors suggest a R>F difference.
喩えるなら 、 絵の中でどれだけ猛火を描写しようと 、 それが現実の 人間を燃やせるわけがないのと同じ 。
To put it in another way, no matter how raging the fire is depicted in a painting, it can't burn a real person.
そして 、 絵に現実は害せなくても 、 現実が絵を破壊することは容易 に出来る 。
And even if the picture can't harm the reality, reality can easily destroy the picture.
高次元から低次元への攻撃は 、 赤子の手を捻るよりも通しやすい 。
An attack from a higher dimension to a lower dimension is easier to get through than twisting a baby's hand.
However, I would need to see demonstrable examples of this kind of interaction between the higher and lower world.
A way to explain their superiority over "physical composition" would be to bring attention to the fact that all of the previous tiers can be expressed as the union of constructs of lower tiers. For example, a 4-dimensional spacetime continuum is at most Low 2-C. However, an inaccessible cardinal's worth of such spacetimes is well into High 1-B+. In spite of the extremely large gap in size between the individuals comprising this totality and the totality itself, the latter is simply the sum of all the former, and as such both ultimately reside in the same state of existence, and have continuity of composition within that state.
Likewise, even the Von Neumann Universe (As well as larger structures still) is still simply the union of many elements that, individually, are smaller than itself. And the same applies to any mathematical space whatsoever.
A 1-A character or realm, on the other hand, fundamentally surpasses lower states of existence, with their sheer superiority not being expressible as the sum, union or permutation of anything in these lesser states. They, in other words, transcend lower existences to the point that those vanish into nothingness.<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tiering_System#cite_note-3">[note 3]</a>
This tier can be extended into higher levels in the same vein as 1-C and 1-B. And should a character or object effect something equivalent to infinitely many of such levels, they should have a "+" modifier in their Attack Potency section (Outerverse level+).
For example, if a character were to view an entire space-time continuum as fiction, they would be superior to such an extent that it would be viewed not as a small portion or constituent of their reality, but as trivialized into nonexistence by comparison, such that their higher world is wholly irreducible to anything pertaining to the lower world. This complete superceding of the lower world's nature lands all such characters at 1-A.
In order to qualify they must view the world as a some actual form of 'fiction', i.e. to them what happens in the fiction is not real and of no physical consequence to their being and also otherwise is of no greater consequence to their being than an actual fictional character could reasonably be to a real life human. However, the medium in which they view the world as fiction generally does not matter, as it being fiction is enough for a Reality-Fiction Transcendence to be considered.
喩えるなら 、 絵の中でどれだけ猛火を描写しようと 、 それが現実の 人間を燃やせるわけがないのと同じ 。
To put it in another way, no matter how raging the fire is depicted in a painting, it can't burn a real person.
そして 、 絵に現実は害せなくても 、 現実が絵を破壊することは容易 に出来る 。
And even if the picture can't harm the reality, reality can easily destroy the picture.
高次元から低次元への攻撃は 、 赤子の手を捻るよりも通しやすい 。
An attack from a higher dimension to a lower dimension is easier to get through than twisting a baby's hand.
However, I would need to see demonstrable examples of this kind of interaction between the higher and lower world.
1-A: Outerverse level
Characters or objects residing in higher states of existence surpassing material composition as a whole, and who are therefore completely unreachable and inaccessible to any and all extensions of the aforementioned structures. Their superiority over such realms, as such, is purely "qualitative"; based entirely on the ontological quality and nature of their existence, rather than any quantitative or numerical principle.A way to explain their superiority over "physical composition" would be to bring attention to the fact that all of the previous tiers can be expressed as the union of constructs of lower tiers. For example, a 4-dimensional spacetime continuum is at most Low 2-C. However, an inaccessible cardinal's worth of such spacetimes is well into High 1-B+. In spite of the extremely large gap in size between the individuals comprising this totality and the totality itself, the latter is simply the sum of all the former, and as such both ultimately reside in the same state of existence, and have continuity of composition within that state.
Likewise, even the Von Neumann Universe (As well as larger structures still) is still simply the union of many elements that, individually, are smaller than itself. And the same applies to any mathematical space whatsoever.
A 1-A character or realm, on the other hand, fundamentally surpasses lower states of existence, with their sheer superiority not being expressible as the sum, union or permutation of anything in these lesser states. They, in other words, transcend lower existences to the point that those vanish into nothingness.<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tiering_System#cite_note-3">[note 3]</a>
This tier can be extended into higher levels in the same vein as 1-C and 1-B. And should a character or object effect something equivalent to infinitely many of such levels, they should have a "+" modifier in their Attack Potency section (Outerverse level+).
What Is Reality-Fiction Transcendence in Detail?
Reality-Fiction Transcendence is a state where a being is qualitatively superior to another world, as a result of seeing the world as fiction and thus being more 'real' than said world. Due to this, the character will be treated as completely superior to the cosmology it transcends, and all characters limited to it, and will thus be granted a higher tier.For example, if a character were to view an entire space-time continuum as fiction, they would be superior to such an extent that it would be viewed not as a small portion or constituent of their reality, but as trivialized into nonexistence by comparison, such that their higher world is wholly irreducible to anything pertaining to the lower world. This complete superceding of the lower world's nature lands all such characters at 1-A.
In order to qualify they must view the world as a some actual form of 'fiction', i.e. to them what happens in the fiction is not real and of no physical consequence to their being and also otherwise is of no greater consequence to their being than an actual fictional character could reasonably be to a real life human. However, the medium in which they view the world as fiction generally does not matter, as it being fiction is enough for a Reality-Fiction Transcendence to be considered.
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I have permission from Firestorm on Discord to post here.
I would also like to bring up other anti-feats that break the R > F suggestion.
One example is Ren/Yato's state as a god.
This speaks of how Ren wasn't someone born with the qualifications to become a Hadou God and needs the blood of his father, Mercurius, an actual god Hadou God, to become one. If Mercurius dies, so does Ren along with his godhood. If that's the case, how does Ren continue to exist as Yato in Kajiri Kamui Kagura when Mercurius is dead?
So Yato exists as a god because he fuses with his previous life and because of his love for Marie. I honestly don't know how a single human soul fusing with his previous life as another human can become a god plus love for Marie would propel him from non 1-A to 1-A. Unless love can be proven as a metaphysical 1-A power source. There's also the fact that Yato is described as a higher dimensional existence, which would negate 1-A due to still being constrained by dimensions.
The other example I want to talk about is Magsarion and his Madou.
Supporters say that Meifu Madou is the end result of Madou, like how Hadou God/Gudou God is the end result of Hadou and Gudou. Except we are not told Meifu Madou is equivalent to the latter and Magsarion is explicitly already on the path of Meifu Madou for the majority of the second half of Avesta before he goes on to fight the god tiers of the story.
Supporters say this is when Magsarion ascended and become 1-A. However, he already had this realization during his fight with Khaverenah, which was before he fought beings like Kaikhosru and Nadare. Kaikhosru can dismember one of Magsarion's hand and keep it around him. Nadare can affect him like this and even break his sword. So unless someone like Nadare herself is 1-A also, this disproves the above scan saying Magsarion became 1-A due to this specific realization.
The completion of Meifu Madou doesn't happen unless he understands Varhram, which happens in his second to last fight in the story. So when exactly does Magsarion become 1-A and what higher source of power does he rely on? Because Madou doesn't seem to have a definitive end goal like Hadou God and Gudou God, and Meifu Madou is ill-defined in how it's equivalent to the other two. As a matter of fact, Magsarion uses his Meifu Madou to become a Hadou God and in his own words it is "evolution" for him to be doing this. It just seems as if he relies on his own power which goes against the standards of 1-A.
And I'm not done with Magsarion. There's how he can travel from the normal world, through the singularity, and reach the Throne.
I don't know about you, but this method of reaching the Throne is wonky to me. Magsarion kills every living being in the universe and this seemingly opens a direct path to the Throne where he just skips through the singularity. Unless the normal universe is 1-A, anything that happens in it shouldn't affect a 1-A space.
The last example I want to talk about is Yakou from Kajiri Kamui Kagura.
To summarize, When Yakou reaches the Throne as a god, he gets all of his Taikyoku taken from him by Hajun. This lowers him from a god back to a mortal because that Taikyoku originally belongs to Hajun. Not only does Yakou continue to exist in the Throne as a mortal, Hajun blasts him with his Hadou, yes, literally his Hadou(覇道), and Yakou gets sent flying from the Throne, through the entire singularity where he sees remnants of the previous Hadou Gods, but not without being hit by spatial fluctuations from the singularity too, and back to the normal world. But it doesn't end there, Yakou survived all that punishment. He's dying, but he's still breathing, and his soul is still there. He survived long enough to have a conversation with Ryuusui before he finally dies from the injuries. How does a non 1-A being survive from all that by two supposed 1-A existences without instantly dying? Especially from Hajun, the strongest Hadou God in the entire series, and the singularity this thread is proposing to be 1-A.
They cannot easily exist in the world, doesn't mean it's impossible. Hadou God Ren at the end of Marie route in Dies Irae exists in the normal world because he got ejected from the singularity and now wanders the world wondering when Marie can come down from the Throne using a sensory to meet her again. He even visits France, Marie's gravesite at the epilogue of Marie Route. He stays in the normal world for so long, he visits his old friend Kasumi from high school who had become an old woman at the special epilogue of Marie Route.
And before someone comes to accuse me of not having read the series and calls me ignorant yet again, I have a Youtube channel I use to upload my playthrough of Kajiri Kamui Kagura. And those videos are THREE years old. So before making more accusations of me not having actually touched the series so you can discredit my opinion, cool yourself.
Indeed, that passage is entirely metaphorical talk to describe a dimensional difference.
Translation courtesy of apotheosis. The fourth passage speaking of a painting not being able to harm reality, but reality being able to destroy the painting, apotheosis further clarifies that it does correlate to the metaphorical talk in the second passage.
I would also like to bring up other anti-feats that break the R > F suggestion.
One example is Ren/Yato's state as a god.
The first scan exists in the Battle of Three Colors in Dies Irae, which was released after Kajiri Kamui Kagura Akebono no Hikari, the definitive version of that game. The second scan is a translation courtesy of Qliphoth Bacikal.
This speaks of how Ren wasn't someone born with the qualifications to become a Hadou God and needs the blood of his father, Mercurius, an actual god Hadou God, to become one. If Mercurius dies, so does Ren along with his godhood. If that's the case, how does Ren continue to exist as Yato in Kajiri Kamui Kagura when Mercurius is dead?
Translation courtesy of Qliphoth Bacikal. This comes from Kajiri Kamui Kagura VFB QnA Interview, released after Akebono no Hikari but before Battle of Three Colors.
So Yato exists as a god because he fuses with his previous life and because of his love for Marie. I honestly don't know how a single human soul fusing with his previous life as another human can become a god plus love for Marie would propel him from non 1-A to 1-A. Unless love can be proven as a metaphysical 1-A power source. There's also the fact that Yato is described as a higher dimensional existence, which would negate 1-A due to still being constrained by dimensions.
The other example I want to talk about is Magsarion and his Madou.
Supporters say that Meifu Madou is the end result of Madou, like how Hadou God/Gudou God is the end result of Hadou and Gudou. Except we are not told Meifu Madou is equivalent to the latter and Magsarion is explicitly already on the path of Meifu Madou for the majority of the second half of Avesta before he goes on to fight the god tiers of the story.
Translation courtesy of Qliphoth Bacikal.
Supporters say this is when Magsarion ascended and become 1-A. However, he already had this realization during his fight with Khaverenah, which was before he fought beings like Kaikhosru and Nadare. Kaikhosru can dismember one of Magsarion's hand and keep it around him. Nadare can affect him like this and even break his sword. So unless someone like Nadare herself is 1-A also, this disproves the above scan saying Magsarion became 1-A due to this specific realization.
The completion of Meifu Madou doesn't happen unless he understands Varhram, which happens in his second to last fight in the story. So when exactly does Magsarion become 1-A and what higher source of power does he rely on? Because Madou doesn't seem to have a definitive end goal like Hadou God and Gudou God, and Meifu Madou is ill-defined in how it's equivalent to the other two. As a matter of fact, Magsarion uses his Meifu Madou to become a Hadou God and in his own words it is "evolution" for him to be doing this. It just seems as if he relies on his own power which goes against the standards of 1-A.
And I'm not done with Magsarion. There's how he can travel from the normal world, through the singularity, and reach the Throne.
Translation courtesy of Qliphoth Bacikal.
I don't know about you, but this method of reaching the Throne is wonky to me. Magsarion kills every living being in the universe and this seemingly opens a direct path to the Throne where he just skips through the singularity. Unless the normal universe is 1-A, anything that happens in it shouldn't affect a 1-A space.
The last example I want to talk about is Yakou from Kajiri Kamui Kagura.
「〈除〉《の》けよ」
僅かな呟き──それのみで、夜行の太極が完全に消え去った。
触覚からただの細胞へ。激痛と共に、骨や血肉ごと鍛え至った極みを取り除く。
「がぁぁ、ぁああ……ぁ、ぐうぅ、はっ！」
「波、旬……ッ」
「──臭い。ああ、こんなに穢れてしまった」
取り戻した〈太極〉《きれはし》を眺めながら、無感動に波旬は呟く。
「所詮は塵か。ただひたすらに卑小で、臭い」
「ははははは。汚いな、穢らわしいぞォ──ここから去ねよ。俺の〈太極〉《ソラ》に塵の住まう隙間はないんだからな」
「ならば、おまえはいったい誰なんだ？ 摩多羅夜行、〈夜摩閻羅天〉《やまえんらてん》と呼ばれた滓など、知らんし要らんしどうでもいい」
「あぁぁ、なんだおまえ、最初から何処にもいないか……」
「ふくくくあははははッ、憐れに惨めに潰れろよォッ」
「おおおおおぉぉぉぉぉぉぉぉ────ッ！」
浴びせられた覇道稚気の波動は、大陸を削り一掃するだけの圧力となって夜行の身体を弾き飛ばす。
特異点に巻き起こった空間振動の波濤により、総身を粉砕されながら辿ってきた次元の穴を逆戻る。上に存在する地へ向かい、砕け散る天と共に崩落した。
己が感銘を受けた五つの波動。またたく間に位階を突き抜け、潜行を始めた地点まで押し流された。
通常の空間まで排斥され、波旬の神威からようやく解放される。しかし、それが何の慰めになるだろう？
"Get lost."
With just a slight murmur, Yakou's Taikyoku completely vanished.
From sensory to mere cell. Along with the intense pain, the ultimate training that had been achieved was removed from the bones and flesh.
"Gaaah, aaahhh... ah, guuuh, ha!"
"Ha-jun..."
"It stinks. Ah, I've become so tainted."
Gazing at the Taikyoku he had recovered, Hajun muttered emotionlessly.
"You're nothing but trash. Utterly small and foul."
"Hahahaha. How filthy, how disgusting - get out of here. There's no room for trash to live in my Sky (Taikyoku)."
"So who are you? I don't know, need or care about the dregs known as Madara Yakou or Yamaenraten."
"Ahh, what's with you? You were never here to begin with..."
"Fukukukuahahaha, go and be miserably crushed!"
"Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!"
The waves of the childish Hegemony that were showered upon him were powerful enough to chip away at the entire continent, knocking Yakou's body flying.
The waves of spatial vibrations that occurred at the singularity caused his entire body to be pulverized as he went back through the dimensional hole he had followed, heading towards the earth above, where it collapsed along with the shattered heavens.
The five waves that impressed him. In the blink of an eye, he pierced the ranks and swept back to the point where he had begun his infiltration.
He was banished to normal space and finally freed from the divine power of Hajun. But what consolation was that?
僅かな呟き──それのみで、夜行の太極が完全に消え去った。
触覚からただの細胞へ。激痛と共に、骨や血肉ごと鍛え至った極みを取り除く。
「がぁぁ、ぁああ……ぁ、ぐうぅ、はっ！」
「波、旬……ッ」
「──臭い。ああ、こんなに穢れてしまった」
取り戻した〈太極〉《きれはし》を眺めながら、無感動に波旬は呟く。
「所詮は塵か。ただひたすらに卑小で、臭い」
「ははははは。汚いな、穢らわしいぞォ──ここから去ねよ。俺の〈太極〉《ソラ》に塵の住まう隙間はないんだからな」
「ならば、おまえはいったい誰なんだ？ 摩多羅夜行、〈夜摩閻羅天〉《やまえんらてん》と呼ばれた滓など、知らんし要らんしどうでもいい」
「あぁぁ、なんだおまえ、最初から何処にもいないか……」
「ふくくくあははははッ、憐れに惨めに潰れろよォッ」
「おおおおおぉぉぉぉぉぉぉぉ────ッ！」
浴びせられた覇道稚気の波動は、大陸を削り一掃するだけの圧力となって夜行の身体を弾き飛ばす。
特異点に巻き起こった空間振動の波濤により、総身を粉砕されながら辿ってきた次元の穴を逆戻る。上に存在する地へ向かい、砕け散る天と共に崩落した。
己が感銘を受けた五つの波動。またたく間に位階を突き抜け、潜行を始めた地点まで押し流された。
通常の空間まで排斥され、波旬の神威からようやく解放される。しかし、それが何の慰めになるだろう？
"Get lost."
With just a slight murmur, Yakou's Taikyoku completely vanished.
From sensory to mere cell. Along with the intense pain, the ultimate training that had been achieved was removed from the bones and flesh.
"Gaaah, aaahhh... ah, guuuh, ha!"
"Ha-jun..."
"It stinks. Ah, I've become so tainted."
Gazing at the Taikyoku he had recovered, Hajun muttered emotionlessly.
"You're nothing but trash. Utterly small and foul."
"Hahahaha. How filthy, how disgusting - get out of here. There's no room for trash to live in my Sky (Taikyoku)."
"So who are you? I don't know, need or care about the dregs known as Madara Yakou or Yamaenraten."
"Ahh, what's with you? You were never here to begin with..."
"Fukukukuahahaha, go and be miserably crushed!"
"Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!"
The waves of the childish Hegemony that were showered upon him were powerful enough to chip away at the entire continent, knocking Yakou's body flying.
The waves of spatial vibrations that occurred at the singularity caused his entire body to be pulverized as he went back through the dimensional hole he had followed, heading towards the earth above, where it collapsed along with the shattered heavens.
The five waves that impressed him. In the blink of an eye, he pierced the ranks and swept back to the point where he had begun his infiltration.
He was banished to normal space and finally freed from the divine power of Hajun. But what consolation was that?
Yes they can. The relevant passage is this.
Translation courtesy of apotheosis.
They cannot easily exist in the world, doesn't mean it's impossible. Hadou God Ren at the end of Marie route in Dies Irae exists in the normal world because he got ejected from the singularity and now wanders the world wondering when Marie can come down from the Throne using a sensory to meet her again. He even visits France, Marie's gravesite at the epilogue of Marie Route. He stays in the normal world for so long, he visits his old friend Kasumi from high school who had become an old woman at the special epilogue of Marie Route.
And before someone comes to accuse me of not having read the series and calls me ignorant yet again, I have a Youtube channel I use to upload my playthrough of Kajiri Kamui Kagura. And those videos are THREE years old. So before making more accusations of me not having actually touched the series so you can discredit my opinion, cool yourself.
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