Shinza Banshou downgrade

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Like I'm pretty sure I make it clear the godhead is the one that prevents them from going to it not the singularity in general. This would have been a contradiction because of the EE who are weaker than the Hadous in general yet the crossed it in no time flat. Hadous are far stronger so its weirder to assume they can't cross it when they pretty much can the obstacle was clashing with the godhead. It wasn't simply the singularity itself that was the issue its that the godhead's own outflow would never let the weaker one reach them just going to a never-ending "fall". We also know singularity is infinite so there is that.

Taiji is the origin and everything above the series anyone who has it would by default be beyond all parts of the singularity and the throne since they only use it to make sure the cosmology doesn't break from existing. Difference of one taiji will instantly swat the weaker one regardless of law and the depth is just a measure to practically show that if u are weaker challenging the godhead is absurd anyway.

 

[Antvasima]

It is very unfortunate that @Warren_Valion and @Qliphoth_Bacikal have not been interested in offering input so far.

In any case, if this downgrade is eventually accepted, somebody knowledgeable needs to adjust our three official explanation pages regarding the verse.

 

[ZERO7772]

Difference of one taiji will instantly swat the weaker one regardless of law and the depth is just a measure to practically show that if u are weaker challenging the godhead is absurd anyway.

What with Merc and Ren affecting Hajun's law then? Taiji's system may seems absolute at first but despite everything presented here I still don't see as it as absolute.
If I am not mistaken Yato was actually pushing back against Hajun's law after he regained his power.

Also, I think the people who are arguing against better bring scans from the game because it will backup their claims much more.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Well, given that @Warren_Valion is missing, @Qliphoth_Bacikal seems uninterested, and @SleepyTBubble and @TISSG7Redgrave disagree, and they are the only members here who know the verse very well, I am just saying that all the people arguing for a downgrade should at least thoroughly familiarise yourselves with the following wiki pages, and preferably read through the blogs, before you do something drastic and likely ill-considered:

The people who made the thread are familiar, Ant. This is just gatekeeping of the worst variety, you are outright dismissing anyone who isn't a few specific members because "other people said it was this" in the past and apparently their opinion is law.

It doesn't matter that there's a ton of blogs and pages when nothing in those blogs proves High 1-A for our standards.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Like I'm pretty sure I make it clear the godhead is the one that prevents them from going to it not the singularity in general. This would have been a contradiction because of the EE who are weaker than the Hadous in general yet the crossed it in no time flat. Hadous are far stronger so its weirder to assume they can't cross it when they pretty much can the obstacle was clashing with the godhead. It wasn't simply the singularity itself that was the issue its that the godhead's own outflow would never let the weaker one reach them just going to a never-ending "fall". We also know singularity is infinite so there is that.

Taiji is the origin and everything above the series anyone who has it would by default be beyond all parts of the singularity and the throne since they only use it to make sure the cosmology doesn't break from existing. Difference of one taiji will instantly swat the weaker one regardless of law and the depth is just a measure to practically show that if u are weaker challenging the godhead is absurd anyway.

Okay but how the hell does any of this is High 1-A.

This is what I mean, Shinza fans will just go "Oh, the Singularity is infinite and transcends everything and the godhead flows with their colors through everything", and expect people to accept High 1-A everyone based on vague stuff like this.

 

[OblivionSama]

I agree with the downgrades

 

[Zencha9]

from what i've understood the Singularity would 1-A+ from their explanation and the gods would be High 1-A due to trivialising it
but correct me if i'm wrong

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

from what i've understood the Singularity would 1-A+ from their explanation and the gods would be High 1-A due to trivialising it

The explanation for the singularity is unironically baseline 1-A.

This is unarguable. They just attach a bunch of vague sentences to it and think it proves is 1-A+. All it shows is that it's regular 1-A. Just because its described in ways that sound fancy doesn't make it 1-A+.

 

[Arcker123]

Can I have the scans about the singularity.

 

[Everything12]

If it was unarguable then the original CRT that had multiple staff and non-staff accept it wouldn't have gone through, and the current CRT wouldn't be like 20 to 19 with multiple staff disagreeing. Just because you don't agree with an interpretation doesn't make it unarguable.

 

[sanicspood]

ima make a mega counter to this in a bit.

 

[Amakasu]

Where is it stated that you need to have an outerversal difference between each outerversal layer?

 

[Guardian_Doge]

I don't think that was ever stated..These two are the only relevant things that might answer your query.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

What with Merc and Ren affecting Hajun's law then? Taiji's system may seems absolute at first but despite everything presented here I still don't see as it as absolute.
If I am not mistaken Yato was actually pushing back against Hajun's law after he regained his power.

You do realize that Yato was taking on a Hajun who was severely weakened by souls and his inability to pay attention to everything around him (Hajun gets weaker with more souls btw unlike a normal Hadou god due to his nature). Yato's plan was to use the souls and we know from the VFB that even with that he can't win in a direct fight. Merc and the other gods only fought a tumorless Hajun literally and almost lost as merc literally had 1hp.

Scans are also in the blogs but here are some: Yakou making his existence deeper and more powerful as he had to sink into the singularity. It is a plain space that goes on forever. A colorless taiji, neither medicinal nor poisonous, but simply existing. Normal ppl can't take it and it's only gods aka ppl who have taiji that can paint the entirety of the current world and make a new one but only one color can exist. Gudous would be fine but Hadous must kill the godhead. Yakou easily weaves through because he's the former and not the latter.

A battle of the gods begins with the challenger leaking their taiji to meet the god they must go to the godhead which is the throne to meet the champion in and challenge them (well if they are even in taiji as Yato wasn't doing much to Hajun's after all these years)

Ravy's blog here and the threads mentioned are where we have the singularities and such.

 

[Amakasu]

I don't think that was ever stated..These two are the only relevant things that might answer your query.

From what I saw, it says that to reach outerversal you need an inaccessible difference, and to reach high 1A, you need a similar degree and so on. What I'm seeing is you need an outerversal degree to trancend outerversal, wasn't hajun described to be like a hadou god to a hadou god? I think that fits the criteria

 

[Nepuko]

Where is it stated that you need to have an outerversal difference between each outerversal layer?

Link : https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/T...gree_they_transcend_normal_humans_High_1-A.3F

Q: Is transcending an 1-A character to the same degree they transcend normal humans High 1-A?

A: No. Due to making use of a much larger measuring stick in comparision to lower tiers (Power sets of infinite sets, as opposed to adding individual dimensions), the gap between any two levels in 1-A actually exceeds the entire system below them, and is equivalent to repeating the whole process which led to the previous level on a much higher scale. Thus, most statements that make use of such comparisions would only amount to one further level into the tier, unless some additional context showing it to be higher is present.

 

[SleepyTBubble]

If I am not mistaken Yato was actually pushing back against Hajun's law after he regained his power.

Outright false.
IF ANYTHING, Hajun was the one pushing Yato back.

******* hell, the Tenmas are literally half-dead and have become insane. Yato also admitted he would have been dead

Mind you Hajun was giving 0 ***** about them and was focusing on shaving the souls clinging to him

 

[PsychoWarper]

What with Merc and Ren affecting Hajun's law then? Taiji's system may seems absolute at first but despite everything presented here I still don't see as it as absolute.
If I am not mistaken Yato was actually pushing back against Hajun's law after he regained his power.

Also, I think the people who are arguing against better bring scans from the game because it will backup their claims much more.

I mean the Yato one was a weakened Hajun and again why wouldnt that be seen as PIS?

As for the Ren one are you referring to the one from Pantheon? Cause his Law didnt do really anything he was just trying to get them to stop fighting and all his Law did was cause Hajun to lose interest its not that it really stopped him, but we still dont know much about Pantheon or the context of what happens within it.

 

[Everything12]

The reason behind these cases is that Mercurius looped after Reinhard had removed the Tumour that gave Hajun his constantly rising power, so while he was still tough he wasn't unsurmountable.

Yato's Time Freeze required all his effort, Hajun wasn't actively going against it because he didn't notice and was busy dealing with other things, and the Freezing only affected an absolutely insignificant portion of the World; like Hajun's Law spread across the Infinite Multiverse while Yato could only keep a small section of Japan with all his power while Hajun wasn't even actively going against him.

As for the Pantheon thing above, that's because he froze Muzan, and Muzan's own power is directly proportional to his opponent's bloodlust. So while he could create a small cut against the constant seething pile of bloodlust that is Hajun while he was busy observing Naraka his presumably lower value wouldn't be boosted to a level that allows him to be unaffected by the relatively serene Ren's power.

 

[SleepyTBubble]

I also don't understand the "Singularity isn't part of the picture" considering its always being presented by Yakou as something part of it (a hole in the picture)

I have some issues overall (both sides if i am being honest) but i don't have the time on me rn

 

[ZERO7772]

Outright false.
IF ANYTHING, Hajun was the one pushing Yato back.

******* hell, the Tenmas are literally half-dead and have become insane. Yato also admitted he would have been dead

Mind you Hajun was giving 0 ***** about them and was focusing on shaving the souls clinging to him

Surely I am not mad enough to claim that Yato can do anything to Hajun outight

Never denied that, but the blog gives the impression that a god with higher value infinitely transcend the lower God even with the different of 1, yet we say that yato can push back if Hajun isn't focusing on him.

That the only bit that bothers me.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Surely I am not mad enough to claim that Yato can do anything to Hajun outight

Never denied that, but the blog gives the impression that a god with higher value indignity trancend the lower God even with the different of 1, yet we say that yato can push back if Hajun isn't focusing on him.

That the only bit that bothers me.

I'm actually looking at his profile and saw this

" The Time Armor even allowed him to halt Hajun’s Law from being completed for over 8,000 years, only stopping because of his own death (Albeit Hajun was significantly weakened due to having absorbed a vast quantity of souls and was not paying any mere attention to his existence)."

 

[SleepyTBubble]

No one is saying Yato was pushing him back though

Well i didn't read the entire thread so could be someone who had a misconception

As i stated, Yato was literally in a sad state, the Tenmas were half-dead

Hell, during the fights, we get statements that their very existence was crumbling

 

[ZERO7772]

I mean the Yato one was a weakened Hajun and again why wouldnt that be seen as PIS?

Why PIS tho?

As for the Ren one are you referring to the one from Pantheon? Cause his Law didnt do really anything he was just trying to get them to stop fighting and all his Law did was cause Hajun to lose interest its not that it really stopped him, but we still dont know much about Pantheon or the context of what happens within it.

I meant Yato actually.
If I wanna use Pantheon I would have brought the famous Muzan vs Hajun scene but like you said, it's vague and with Pantheon being canceled it doesn't mean much

 

[QuasiYuri]

Only reasons Tenmas weren't dead is because of Yato's law iirc.

Problem here is more that if it was transcendance, the very idea of halting his law, even if he doesn't care, would be impossible. Just like how a 3D guy can't block an 1-A guy trying to walk.

 

[ZERO7772]

" The Time Armor even allowed him to halt Hajun’s Law from being completed for over 8,000 years, only stopping because of his own death (Albeit Hajun was significantly weakened due to having absorbed a vast quantity of souls and was not paying any mere attention to his existence)."

To be fair, same Hajun/tumor gave Habaki enough boost to obliterate Yato so Hajun was still WAY above Yato even in his nerfed state.

Yet Yato can still halt his law.
Even if Hajun wasn't paying attention, if Hajun still transcend Yato such absurd degree, this act wouldn't have been possible

 

[RamadhanDayYet]

Yet Yato can still halt his law.
Even if Hajun wasn't paying attention, if Hajun still transcend Yato such absurd degree, this act wouldn't have been possible

it would be PIS and be special event (because hajun condition) to be honest
the superiority between gods are solid since dies irae

 

[ZERO7772]

it would be PIS and be special event (because hajun condition) to be honest
the superiority between gods are solid since dies irae

Merc was also stated to have a very slim chance at effecting Hajun exitance as a throne god tho? Why are we dismissing and calling statement PIS when it doesn't serve our point of view? It's not as absolute as people make it out to be. Heck, the idea of ID gods surviving a battle with Hajun should dismiss this idea, since if Hajun was literal god beyond gods compared to them cuz "Taiji" he would should have solo'ed them with a look, but it doesn't happen

the superiority between gods are solid since dies irae
Dunno what that means. Both Rein and Ren used loop holes/specials abilltes to get around Merc being the superiors god with a higher count of souls since he had basically an infinite count of them IIRC.
Rein used his statue as Apoptosis, and Ren used specials hax granted by Machina and Shirou "if I remember right" after stealing some of Rein's legion.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

And yet you do remember ren, rein and merc are technically all the same taiji by rea route right? Ren and rein during marie route were not the same taiji as merc so u know why they never fought merc there. 3 colors they are the same taiji just merc is still the godhead so yes he has soul count but they were no different in taiji numbers.

 

[ZERO7772]

Anyway I am unwatching this for now because this people are very split on this and it's going off rails.

Staff will likely have to vote on this.

 

[ZERO7772]

And yet you do remember ren, rein and merc are technically all the same taiji by rea route right? Ren and rein during marie route were not the same taiji as merc so u know why they never fought merc there. 3 colors they are the same taiji just merc is still the godhead so yes he has soul count but they were no different in taiji numbers.

I am aware my dude. I was just replying to the "the superiority between gods are solid since dies irae"
Because, correct me if I am wrong, but Taiji system didn't exist back when DI came out, it only became a thing in KKK.

Granted, Three Colors came after the original release of KKK but there was no mention of it in the story of DI itself.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

@Antvasima The reason I do not have any interest in this is because I have way too many issues with the people here and this place, one of which pissed me off enough to not wanna work on Shinza WHEN I was the middle of ******* revising the damn profiles. Tiering or such doesn't mean shit to me unless that's part of it, and even then I merely was going for stuff like explain the many important terms and concepts in this verse, or any other I could be working on/plan to like everyone else here.

I don't comment because this thread is asinine to look at. I don't comment because I haven't done anything for Shinza for like almost a year outside of Paradise Lost and, lately commenting. And lastly, obviously as it is, it's because I do not care and have no interest in a series I may or may not consider coming back to. So I'd appreciate not being pinged here anymore, thank you...

Or if you do, I'd just ignore this thread completely and let the lot of you decide how to handle this yourselves.

 

[SagaTheLegend]

From what i understood from reading throught here, if the Singularity is considered a "hole" in the "paper", that would mean it is technically in the same level of reality as it. There is a difference between a drawing in a sheet of paper and having a hole in it, the later wouldn't really be a difference of R>F or Reality > Fiction

 

[PsychoWarper]

Merc was also stated to have a very slim chance at effecting Hajun exitance as a throne god tho? Why are we dismissing and calling statement PIS when it doesn't serve our point of view? It's not as absolute as people make it out to be. Heck, the idea of ID gods surviving a battle with Hajun should dismiss this idea, since if Hajun was literal god beyond gods compared to them cuz "Taiji" he would should have solo'ed them with a look, but it doesn't happen

Being the Throne God grants a large boost in power and that was still tumorless Hajun iirc, and it didnt even say it could effect Hajun as a god just make it so he never became one whcih Mercs powers have been shown to be weird.

For the Yato thing the reason I say PIS is that Yato stopping Hajun is literally a major plot point that has to happen for the series itself to happen, if it doesnt Hajun nukes everything and there is no series, through out K3 is constantly shown and stated how much superior Hajun is, but Yato has to slow his Law for the Plot to happen it causes many of the events of the series.

Anyway imma unfollow for a bit, im currently doing a 2k+ road trip and dont really wanna be a part of this for now. I’ll eventually come back as long as it hasnt been concluded.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I honestly find taking any single of statement where a guy goes "Compared to me, you might as well be a normal human" to mean that they are literally infinite ^ infinite times stronger to be offensively bad analysis, personally.

 

[Arcker123]

I honestly find taking any single of statement where a guy goes "Compared to me, you might as well be a normal human" to mean that they are literally infinite ^ infinite times stronger to be offensively bad analysis, personally.

Yeah, this shouldn’t grant anything even in tier 2 let alone 1.

 

[Amakasu]

I honestly find taking any single of statement where a guy goes "Compared to me, you might as well be a normal human" to mean that they are literally infinite ^ infinite times stronger to be offensively bad analysis, personally.

There's a similar statement from yato.

 

[San-Kakarot]

I honestly find taking any single of statement where a guy goes "Compared to me, you might as well be a normal human" to mean that they are literally infinite ^ infinite times stronger to be an offensively bad analysis, personally.

Well, isn't the power difference between a human and a universe buster infinite?

 

[Arcker123]

Well, isn't the power difference between a human and a universe buster infinite?

Would a series mean that hyper literally though?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

A single degree of infinity or infinite ^ infinite would yield the same result in the statement. You can't simultaneously argue that these characters exist on a level where our understanding of math and dimensions are insignificant and then apply linear alephs to it.