Shadow of the Rabbit Goddess

[Samlex1234]

Are we forgetting that Toneri nearly killed himself by absorbing too much chakra, to the point where his body started melting? Or that when the Madara was being taken over by Kaguya, his body began breaking down, with Sasuke explicitly stating that her chakra was far beyond Madara’s?

Now, Im not saying that characters always directly scale to their energy input and output, but durability to some extent plays a significant role. Jigen, for example, was already comparable to Naruto and Sasuke in his Karma V1 state and his body was able to handle that fine. However, when he entered Karma V2, his power output became so overwhelming that his body started breaking down. Despite this, even when his power was reduced to less than 10% efficiency, he wasn’t going to die.

Then, when Isshiki fully emerged from Jigen’s body, he only had one day to live, his power was so immense that his body immediately began deteriorating on the spot something that didnt happen to base Jigen or even Karma V1 Jigen. Im not claiming this is the main argument, nor was it ever intended to be, but as a supporting argument, it is far from flawed.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Are we forgetting that Toneri nearly killed himself by absorbing too much chakra, to the point where his body started melting? Or that when the Madara was being taken over by Kaguya, his body began breaking down, with Sasuke explicitly stating that her chakra was far beyond Madara’s?

Now, Im not saying that characters always directly scale to their energy input and output, but durability to some extent plays a significant role. Jigen, for example, was already comparable to Naruto and Sasuke in his Karma V1 state and his body was able to handle that fine. However, when he entered Karma V2, his power output became so overwhelming that his body started breaking down. Despite this, even when his power was reduced to less than 10% efficiency, he wasn’t going to die.

Then, when Isshiki fully emerged from Jigen’s body, he only had one day to live, his power was so immense that his body immediately began deteriorating on the spot something that didnt happen to base Jigen or even Karma V1 Jigen. Im not claiming this is the main argument, nor was it ever intended to be, but as a supporting argument, it is far from flawed.

The difference is that Toneri and Madara got overfilled with chakra while Isshiki was breaking down due to power. Isshikis case is closer to 8th gate Guys than to Madaras or Toneris

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I'm kinda with Damage on this argument. AP doesn't come purely from chakra quantity but also it's quality and use. Momoshiki considered Kurama alone as massive and Jigen used small portions of the Juubi to amp himself. Hell the shinju who could dogwalk juubidara are just a small evolved portion of the Juubi highlighting how chakra quantity isn't the single deciding factor to power, and so Jigen or Isshiki scaling above Kaguya doesn't necessarily prove he has to output beyond V2 Kaguya level of power to self destruct.

Hard NO from me, Quantity is definitely a deciding factor of power levels, Momoshiki scoffed at Gyuki’s chakra quantity, who was previously comparable to Kurama in the war, he uses chakra pills to amp his power too, the only statement I can find about massive chakra reserves are about Naruto who’s got way more factors than just Kurama

The fact that they outright say massive is more than enough evidence that they’re highlighting to quantity, massiveness is the reason naruto is appealing to them (lol), straight up contradicts the other interpretation

All your other examples are just baseless because it doesn’t support the claim if we don’t know how powerful that Juubi is, you just arbitrarily decided that, Lastly Shippuden deadass has a endless abyss of statements supporting quantity determining AP, it’s why we get multipliers

Lastly it doesn’t matter if it’s qualitative or quantitative as long as it is a power jump that leads to actual destruction ; a never-before-seen effect of sheer power, my conclusion ends up in the same boat, makes him stronger than her regardless

However we don’t really need to debate this much because it’s listed for supporting arguments to bring consistency into the table as we did not in fact see such an effect before in the narrative adding more credence to the idea that Isshiki is top dog, my primary evidence is the strongest statement, focus on that instead

I still agree that
Isshiki > V2 Kaguyas ninjutsu >~ Kaguyas EPS
Is a reasonable argument with a solid conclusion.

Based

 

[KaydeeX]

I agree with most part of the OP

although i do find it kinda weird that the difference between V2 Jigen and Isshiki is that wide (i woulda said Jigen downscales) but that’s not a defeater of the premise so i digress

 

[ssgengar]

So as far as the massive gap goes, are we doing anything there like downscaling of some kind? I do agree with the premise here but the gap needs some kind of justification for this to completely make sense to me

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

So as far as the massive gap goes, are we doing anything there like downscaling of some kind? I do agree with the premise here but the gap needs some kind of justification for this to completely make sense to me

Read this

Wide Inverse Gap + Cross Verse Tiering works like that

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Anyway, I have no issues at all with BM Naruto and Isshiki scaling to Low 4-C.

Why does her "Ninjutsu" (whatever that means in specific) scale above her "EPS"? The OP doesn't really answer that question for me. Are you saying her jutsu like her Hair Manipulation would scale to Low 4-C? I'm not really seeing the basis. I don't see why her other Ninjutsu would have the opportunity scaling above her EPS. Her Vacuum Jutsu IIRC is stated in a Databook that it's something only she can do thanks to her massive amounts of chakra but her Ash Killing Jutsu I'm not even sure that has any statements of that regard.

assuming you have read my reasoning for Ninjutsu and not just EGVF, is it okay to mark you down as agree?

 

[ssgengar]

Read this

Wide Inverse Gap + Cross Verse Tiering works like that

Ok I guess I’m cool w that, you can put me down as agree

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Ok I guess I’m cool w that, you can put me down as agree

 

[Damage3245]

assuming you have read my reasoning for Ninjutsu and not just EGVF, is it okay to mark you down as agree?

Btw, I know I said I'd post yesterday but I'm currently getting something checked out that will be relevant to one of the main arguments. Hopefully tonight but maybe tomorrow.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Btw, I know I said I'd post yesterday but I'm currently getting something checked out that will be relevant to one of the main arguments. Hopefully tonight but maybe tomorrow.

hopefully its not another "why does ash-bones look like ash-bones" argument because those just drag the CRT for the sake of dragging it out without refuting anything

EDIT : Also we can't keep waiting for you indefinitely if its translations you're waiting for then I suggest using AI

 

[Damage3245]

hopefully its not another "why does ash-bones look like ash-bones" argument because those just drag the CRT for the sake of dragging it out without refuting anything

EDIT : Also we can't keep waiting for you indefinitely if its translations you're waiting for then I suggest using AI

It's not dragging it out since no other staff has voted on it yet, I'm just keeping you in the loop that I haven't abandoned the thread.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

It's not dragging it out since no other staff has voted on it yet, I'm just keeping you in the loop that I haven't abandoned the thread.

Nierre has already given their input.

You originally set a time to respond but didn’t follow through, and now you’re asking for more time without a fixed timeframe. You’ve had ample opportunity to present your objections, and seeing your responses that argue for the sake of arguing, continuing those just lead to a pointless back-and-forth

Atp, it would be more productive for you to make a response CRT later if needed, rather than delaying this one indefinitely

 

[Nierre]

Id like to see what Damage has to say I'll give my input then

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

If you say so

 

[Damage3245]

Nierre has already given their input.

You originally set a time to respond but didn’t follow through, and now you’re asking for more time without a fixed timeframe. You’ve had ample opportunity to present your objections, and seeing your responses that argue for the sake of arguing, continuing those just lead to a pointless back-and-forth

Atp, it would be more productive for you to make a response CRT later if needed, rather than delaying this one indefinitely

Man, you're really impatient. I wanted to get a human pair of eyes to go over it and verify, but very well, I'll continue with AI:

This super-human taijutsu, which can only be activated by one who has mastered chakra, Ōtsutsuki Kaguya, involves concentrating chakra in the palm of the hand and releasing it into the air, generating countless powerful fists. These fists, in conjunction with her dōjutsu, create a perfect and impregnable formation of combined offense and defense.

This is the AI translation of the databook text, and it falls in line more or less with the fan translation from a view years ago:

This jutsu is only possible by the supernatural chakra that Kaguya dominates. It puts chakra in your palm and then releases a sequence of countless fists in the air. Fist attacks can be used both offensively and defensively. Combined with Kaguya’s Doujutsu, this ability has the potential to wreak havoc on the battlefield.

Now, the reason I wanted this to get checked out is because you've asserted this interpretation that Kaguya is amplifying the power of her Eighty Gods Vacuum Attack with her Rinne Sharingan:

Techniques such as Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, and Susano—all powered by the Mangekyo Sharingan—utilize Dojutsu to enhance their potency. These abilities are far beyond anything else in the user’s ninjutsu arsenal, as Dojutsu-based techniques consistently draw several times greater chakra reserves and produce attacks of much higher potency compared to standard ninjutsu.

The Rinnegan just like the others does this to a far superior level, Obito fears what would happen if Madara were to attain a complete set of Rinnegans, he notes how it brings out more chakra and powers to the point of making Obito feel like losing himself. The second Rinnegan allows Madara to quadruple his Limbo Clone Count, showcasing his power jump, using two rinnegans runs out the battery faster but he grows stronger because of their exponential power boost

What differentiates EGVF from other jutsu is that it is powered by Kaguya’s Dojutsu that draws in chakra in unprecedented
levels + Combined with Master Level Chakra Control, resulting in a massive power gap compared to other jutsu, logically placing this far higher than the other normal basic abilities. The Pinnacle of Kaguya's power is this Jutsu.

The databook text doesn't mention her Rinne Sharingan or that she is amplifying the jutsu with it; it mentions her her using the technique in conjunction with her Dojutsu which I interpret to mean her Byakugan. She uses the Byakugan not to amplify the power of her attacks but to supplement her offensive and defensive fighting style. As we can see, Kaguya keeps her Byakugan active when fighting using the Eighty Gods Vacuum Fist the first time we see her using them.

So, essentially I don't think the evidence is there to say that the Eighty Gods Vacuum Dist is powered by high quantities of chakra from her Rinne Sharingan.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Thank you for complying with my request

I expected this to be used but no probs I’ll hit back with something by today

 

[Damage3245]

Thank you for complying with my request

I expected this to be used but no probs I’ll hit back with something by today

No problem. And for the record, while I can understand how you came to the conclusion you did in your interpretation and the inferences you made from it as a result of that, I don't think it's directly supported by the text or the manga which is why I don't agree with that particular reading of it.

 

[Samlex1234]

No problem. And for the record, while I can understand how you came to the conclusion you did in your interpretation and the inferences you made from it as a result of that, I don't think it's directly supported by the text or the manga which is why I don't agree with that particular reading of it.

Is the argument that EGVF doesn't scale above EPS ( Combat applicable Out) or that EGVF doesn't scale to it at all?

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Is the argument that EGVF doesn't scale above EPS ( Combat applicable Out) or that EGVF doesn't scale to it at all?

hes talking about the translation

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Man, you're really impatient. I wanted to get a human pair of eyes to go over it and verify, but very well, I'll continue with AI:



This is the AI translation of the databook text, and it falls in line more or less with the fan translation from a view years ago:



Now, the reason I wanted this to get checked out is because you've asserted this interpretation that Kaguya is amplifying the power of her Eighty Gods Vacuum Attack with her Rinne Sharingan:



The databook text doesn't mention her Rinne Sharingan or that she is amplifying the jutsu with it; it mentions her her using the technique in conjunction with her Dojutsu which I interpret to mean her Byakugan. She uses the Byakugan not to amplify the power of her attacks but to supplement her offensive and defensive fighting style. As we can see, Kaguya keeps her Byakugan active when fighting using the Eighty Gods Vacuum Fist the first time we see her using them.

So, essentially I don't think the evidence is there to say that the Eighty Gods Vacuum Dist is powered by high quantities of chakra from her Rinne Sharingan.

[LINK TO NARUTOVERSITY TRANSLATION FOR CROSS CHECKING EASE OF ACCESS]

Okay so to clarify and make things easier
You’re cool with the other things I have laid out e.g. standard combat ninjutsu being this strong and all upscaling from a casual background task feats + Why ETSO and Ash Bones were used + Why Ash-Bones don’t change appearance after the user gets a stat amp + Why Isshiki hosting Jigen being destructive in nature tiers him above all the amps shown prior acting as a good consistency statement

So the only thing contention left is the Dojutsu Amp, Now I personally saw it as a stat amp due to the Dojutsu stating to assist the technique, it's not like the eight trigram attack that uses byakugan to seek vitals because it’s redundant to do with giant fists as ash bones exist, nor can it be sth like Kakashi’s tunnel vision being fixed by sharingan since Kaguya remains stationary during the time she launches her fists so the only real way to assist a jutsu that specialises in high AP and durability is well amping those stats, (the rinnegan and MS do this for the Susano)

The Byakugan wouldn't add much due to the existence of sensory for the six paths people either way so its not giving her what she already doesnt have (especially when she uses it when intending to beat up naruto and not in other less damage intending attacks compared to that)

If you noticed that section wasn’t primarily based around the Dojutsu, it also mentions how the Jutsu’s immense power results in it having a wide power gap compared to its inferior counterpart aka the Eight Trigrams Attack. Since you’re making use of a much stronger variation of two jutsus that pour in chakra, with one of them pouring in massive amounts compared to the other resulting in the need for the highest level of chakra control which also helps me reach the same conclusion as I did before

---

Now instead of dragging this I think there is a better solution. I can reword things to fit people's needs, since the EGVF’s Dojutsu amp is the only thing Damage is showing contention with, we’ll just use the normal line of logic of combat ninjutsu being far more potent (the EGVF would still be L4C but for the bolded section reason instead of the Dojutsu) this way we don’t end up with a needless back and forth, giving us a compromise that everyone is happy with

The statement of EGVF and Ash Bones are to be removed and changed to

At least Small Star Level with Ninjutsu (Kaguya's offensive ninjutsu should be far stronger than her casual chakra output which can pour in at least this much energy per second into her Expansive Truth-Seeker Orb continuously for 15 years)

 

[DavidTPPM]

Hard NO from me, Quantity is definitely a deciding factor of power levels, Momoshiki scoffed at Gyuki’s chakra quantity,

That was just a tentacle clone. The credits reveal Bee escaping out of a tentacle from under water and Gyuki is shown alive during the later bijuu meeting. So there's no reason Momoshiki took a relevant portion of Gyukis chakra.

who was previously comparable to Kurama in the war,

I don’t recall any statements like that and in terms of feat Kurama dwarfs Gyuki.

The fact that they outright say massive is more than enough evidence that they’re highlighting to quantity, massiveness is the reason naruto is appealing to them (lol), straight up contradicts the other interpretation

What are you referring to here? I'm confused.

All your other examples are just baseless because it doesn’t support the claim if we don’t know how powerful that Juubi is, you just arbitrarily decided that,

I'm basing it off of known information. WA Juubi has already becomes a divine tree in the past and has went through all the stages before being split into bijuu. The juvenile Juubi Jigen had didn't since Jigen didn't have an Otsutsuki to feed it.

Plus it's a lot smaller and resembles stage 1 Juubi the most. We know bijuu are made out of chakra and their chakra amount affects their size(such as Kurama getting smaller after being split) and shape(such as Juubi completely changing forms as it progressed through its stages).

So literally every piece of evidence we have points towards that Juubi having as much or less chakra than the previous ones. Saying it has so much chakra that taking away several times the earth's Juubi worth of chakra is inconsequential to it is a pretty insane claim and would be a completely inconsistent conclusion.

Lastly Shippuden deadass has a endless abyss of statements supporting quantity determining AP, it’s why we get multipliers

Shippuden also starts off with Naruto being stated to have 4x more chakra than Kakashi at a point where he didn't surpass him yet. And even after learning the rasen shuriken (meaning chakra control is definitely no longer an issue) Naruto only reached Kakashis level. Another example is kcm2 Naruto being absolutely nowhere near Hashirama level in AP and yet having "near Hashirama level chakra".

The reason we have multipliers is completely different. Narutos chakra doubling would logically result in his power doubling because every other factor (quality, control, application, etc) remains the same. But Naruto 2x more chakra than say, Sasuke, doesn't necessarily mean he has 2x more AP than Sasuke. Because that's a wholeass different person.

I mean Baryon mode Naruto, the strongest non-shibai character in the series, literally just combines his chakra and Kuramas. That by itself shows Naruto gaining power nonlinearly to chakra quantity and more so as a result of chakra quality instead.

Lastly it doesn’t matter if it’s qualitative or quantitative as long as it is a power jump that leads to actual destruction ; a never-before-seen effect of sheer power, my conclusion ends up in the same boat, makes him stronger than her regardless

It does matter because there is a difference between destroying the body through power and destroying it through sheer chakra quantity.

However we don’t really need to debate this much because it’s listed for supporting arguments to bring consistency into the table as we did not in fact see such an effect before in the narrative adding more credence to the idea that Isshiki is top dog, my primary evidence is the strongest statement, focus on that instead

I mean sure, I'm just pointing out that the argument doesn't exactly work given how chakra works.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

That was just a tentacle clone. The credits reveal Bee escaping out of a tentacle from under water and Gyuki is shown alive during the later bijuu meeting. So there's no reason Momoshiki took a relevant portion of Gyukis chakra.

I don’t recall any statements like that and in terms of feat Kurama dwarfs Gyuki.

What are you referring to here? I'm confused.

I'm basing it off of known information. WA Juubi has already becomes a divine tree in the past and has went through all the stages before being split into bijuu. The juvenile Juubi Jigen had didn't since Jigen didn't have an Otsutsuki to feed it.

Plus it's a lot smaller and resembles stage 1 Juubi the most. We know bijuu are made out of chakra and their chakra amount affects their size(such as Kurama getting smaller after being split) and shape(such as Juubi completely changing forms as it progressed through its stages).

So literally every piece of evidence we have points towards that Juubi having as much or less chakra than the previous ones. Saying it has so much chakra that taking away several times the earth's Juubi worth of chakra is inconsequential to it is a pretty insane claim and would be a completely inconsistent conclusion.

Shippuden also starts off with Naruto being stated to have 4x more chakra than Kakashi at a point where he didn't surpass him yet. And even after learning the rasen shuriken (meaning chakra control is definitely no longer an issue) Naruto only reached Kakashis level. Another example is kcm2 Naruto being absolutely nowhere near Hashirama level in AP and yet having "near Hashirama level chakra".

The reason we have multipliers is completely different. Narutos chakra doubling would logically result in his power doubling because every other factor (quality, control, application, etc) remains the same. But Naruto 2x more chakra than say, Sasuke, doesn't necessarily mean he has 2x more AP than Sasuke. Because that's a wholeass different person.

I mean Baryon mode Naruto, the strongest non-shibai character in the series, literally just combines his chakra and Kuramas. That by itself shows Naruto gaining power nonlinearly to chakra quantity and more so as a result of chakra quality instead.

It does matter because there is a difference between destroying the body through power and destroying it through sheer chakra quantity.

I mean sure, I'm just pointing out that the argument doesn't exactly work given how chakra works.

There’s a lot of wrong here like confusing mkcm2 with baryon mode but I think it’s best to focus on the bigger and more relevant things as I’ve laid out

At the end of the day it is a consistency supporting statement to validate Isshikis position which I assume you don’t have issues with

 

[DavidTPPM]

At the end of the day it is a consistency supporting statement to validate Isshikis position which I assume you don’t have issues with

I don’t have issue with it being supportive evidence, just not in the way it's presented.
I think it's very good supportive evidence towards that gap being so massive from Jigen (such as against the outlier argument). I just don't think it points towards any other conclusions

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I don’t have issue with it being supportive evidence, just not in the way it's presented.
I think it's very good supportive evidence towards that gap being so massive from Jigen (such as against the outlier argument). I just don't think it points towards any other conclusions

Cool , Initially that is what I wrote for it, since people dont have downscaling issues anymore its fine

 

[Samlex1234]

I don’t have issue with it being supportive evidence, just not in the way it's presented.
I think it's very good supportive evidence towards that gap being so massive from Jigen (such as against the outlier argument). I just don't think it points towards any other conclusions

Attack potency ultimately depends on a combination of chakra reserves, control, quality, and application. You are not necessarily wrong, and neither is the OP’s argument both perspectives have merit in different contexts.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

What’s the basis of the 15 year timeframe? Sounds stupid she’d be charging that move for 15 years. She’d be charging nearly until current Boruto lol.

 

[Damage3245]

What’s the basis of the 15 year timeframe? Sounds stupid she’d be charging that move for 15 years. She’d be charging nearly until current Boruto lol.

Strictly speaking, that's not the topic of this thread and we'd be diverting to a different discussion by going into all that here. You can read the justification in the original calc here.

 

[Samlex1234]

Id like to see what Damage has to say I'll give my input then

Heyy Nierre any update now?

 

[Nierre]

Anyway, I have no issues at all with BM Naruto and Isshiki scaling to Low 4-C.

I still agree that
Isshiki > V2 Kaguyas ninjutsu >~ Kaguyas EPS
Is a reasonable argument with a solid conclusion.

ATM this is okay to me.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

ATM this is okay to me.

 

[Nierre]

EDIT: Wait sorry I'm not convinced with the whole Ninjutsu argument being above EPS. I'm for EGVF being above EPS. (Low 4-C with EGVF)

(Sorry I'm headed to the gym so I wrote that while rushing out the house)

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

EDIT: Wait sorry I'm not convinced with the whole Ninjutsu argument being above EPS. I'm for EGVF being above EPS. (Low 4-C with EGVF)

(Sorry I'm headed to the gym so I wrote that while rushing out the house)

okay noted for EGVF

Snip

Hey any update?

 

[Damage3245]

@Ghostimuscrime Could you mark me as disagree in the OP for now?

 

[Samlex1234]

@Ghostimuscrime Could you mark me as disagree in the OP for now?

And why exactly are you disagreeing? What exactly is your contention?

 

[ssgengar]

And why exactly are you disagreeing? What exactly is your contention?

Well he said for now. I’d say just wait for the response he’s cooking up and go from there

 

[Samlex1234]

Well, he said for now. I’d say just wait for the response he’s cooking up and go from there

Huh? So he just said Ayo put me down as disagreeing in the main time without mentioning specifically why he disagrees? How does that work? If you have not decided there is a neutral option for that. Either way, I'm not surprised.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Questionable choice of words. But allow me to agree—on the condition that my name would not be listed on the OP.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Huh? So he just said Ayo put me down as disagreeing in the main time without mentioning specifically why he disagrees? How does that work? If you have not decided there is a neutral option for that. Either way, I'm not surprised.

Leave it be, he’s said his part and decided on a vote, stop acting like a child

Questionable choice of words. But allow me to agree—on the condition that my name would not be listed on the OP.

I thought it sounded cool :/

 

[Samlex1234]

Questionable choice of words. But allow me to agree—on the condition that my name would not be listed on the OP.

Your agreeing would mean you are agreeing with the OP’s argument, if you disagree with the OP’s argument then you have to give a reason why you do especially if you are a mod.