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A thread ban probably isn't necessary as this point. Just ignore off-topic questions. My response post will be up later today.
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Shadow of the Rabbit Goddess
- Thread starter Ghostimuscrime
- Start date
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- Thread starter
- #82
Alright
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Probably tag LordGriffin, LordTracer, Shadowbokunohero, and UchihaSlayer69
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Chill
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Idk why it is different when the two statement are from the same character with the same topic but my brother If that'll make you happy then I will stop posting here
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At the time I made a small calculation with the time frame of the anime and it came out to approximately a little more than 12 years (Just to clarify: V)
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Slayer has mentioned his lack of interest in god-tier CRT I will suggest you leave him out of this.
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let it cook tbh, if it goes by 3 days without any proper refutations eyes mr garp then I'll request staff input afterwards
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I'm actually fine with the conclusion reached. I believe it's very cherry-picky to hold the position that Kaguya shouldn't scale to the full yield of the Eternal Truth-Seeking Orb because of it being an overtime attack that has no concrete evidence / implications supporting her scaling to the entirety of its value, but on the same token argue she shouldn't scale to the energy released per second by the attack, despite the fact that energy is being released by herself, at a rate naturally produce-able by her level of strength, necessitated by the fact she is the one initially containing / eventually producing that energy in the first place.
Just on that logical basis alone, I agree. I do believe some of the arguments made aren't that supportive of differentiating this conclusion from other possible interpretations that don't necessitate Kaguya scaling to Low 4-C with certain attacks, but I believe it's ultimately unimportant to comment on them further since the conclusion itself is backed by other, more sufficient, arguments.
However, even if I do agree with the conclusion, I think there still needs to be a conversation, eventually; after the more pressing matter of getting the thread accepted has been decided, on if this is applicable to the profiles or should just be considered an outlier given the massive disparity between values at play here.
Just on that logical basis alone, I agree. I do believe some of the arguments made aren't that supportive of differentiating this conclusion from other possible interpretations that don't necessitate Kaguya scaling to Low 4-C with certain attacks, but I believe it's ultimately unimportant to comment on them further since the conclusion itself is backed by other, more sufficient, arguments.
However, even if I do agree with the conclusion, I think there still needs to be a conversation, eventually; after the more pressing matter of getting the thread accepted has been decided, on if this is applicable to the profiles or should just be considered an outlier given the massive disparity between values at play here.
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Just an FYI, Kakashi's Kamui Raikiri would also scale to this value as it was able to cut IT Kaguya's shoulder. So he should be added to the Sandbox.
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the disparity is not really an issue given the section I laid out for consistency, before isshiki arc, we don't really have characters so overpowered that they end up destroying their own body due to sheer power level and the main evidence itself says he is the big bad, strongest oat etc and it is true as Isshiki was Top1 in the narutoverse for a good while
and naruto was only able to reach the apex of Isshiki's power level via nuclear fusion which and I quote
this along with many other supporting factors is enough to say they're as of now disconnected from the rest of the scaling chain except for being inferior to shibai
and it's not like they have feats or comparability to the rest of cast, shikamaru believing code isnt isshiki level is what gave him confidence that konoha can handle him
So the disparity would not be an issue because there's a canonical in-verse wide gap already presented between them
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Yeah, I agree with it not being an outlier at all. Isshiki is at the VERY pinnacle of power in the Narutoverse until his death and nobody came CLOSE to his power, not even Hokage Naruto and Adult Sasuke combining their strongest abilities. Naruto and Kurama had to use an ability that KILLED Kurama just to be able to beat Isshiki, and even that was very circumstantial considering Isshiki was already at death's door.
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Wait a minute guys, the Op is not proposing Kaguya to scale to the EPS durability wise. She only scales with ninjutsu and 8 gods vacuum attack and based on the LES ninjutsu don't always scale to physicals
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bro, naruto doesnt have UES, v2 kaguya is only getting 4c ninjutsu
MS ninjutsu are canonically stated to draw several times more chakra than other ninjutsu, and susano is stated the ultimate jutsu for those who have mastered the mangekyo, its above everything in a MS users arsenal
if Kakashi's susano breaks from tier 4 attacks and it is superior to his other jutsu why do you think those would scale as well? (Plus its only dura neg hax anyway)
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You didn't add "with Ninjutsu" in your Sandbox so I got confused.
It should look something like this:
Small Planet Level (Stronger than before), at least Small Star Level with Ninjutsu (Kaguya's casual chakra output would be be able to pour in at least this much energy per second into her Expansive Truth-Seeker Orb continuously for 15 years), far higher with Eighty God Vacuum Fists and All Ash Killing Bones, up to Solar System level overtime with Expansive Truth-Seeker Orb (Kaguya's Expansive Truth-Seeker Orb was going to destroy a dimension with a star in it over a period of time)
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honestly kaguya previously did not have star level physicals but got it just randomly listed like that in her current profile but I understand it would cause confusion, I updated sandbox to fit your proposal
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I think that as long as only the Isshiki tier characters scale to the value it shouldn't pose issues regarding outliers.
Isshiki completely dwarfs anyone who was introduced in Boruto up until Baryon Mode Naruto is introduced. Hell Shikamaru seems to believe Code isn't Isshiki level purely because of how insane Isshiki was, not because he actually saw and measured Codes power.
So it only makes sense for Isshiki to scale to a far higher value than any of the previous feats suggest. He very much is an in-universe outlier so no other character having feats near Isshikis level shouldn't affect his scaling
Isshiki completely dwarfs anyone who was introduced in Boruto up until Baryon Mode Naruto is introduced. Hell Shikamaru seems to believe Code isn't Isshiki level purely because of how insane Isshiki was, not because he actually saw and measured Codes power.
So it only makes sense for Isshiki to scale to a far higher value than any of the previous feats suggest. He very much is an in-universe outlier so no other character having feats near Isshikis level shouldn't affect his scaling
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spitting david!! goh gets spared for now
MinatoSparkle
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For now yes
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An Argument used in the thread is Sasuke Thinks a measurment of kaguyas Power is her Chakra Arms.............. And Sasuke also Thinks Momoshiki and Kinshiki > Kaguya.
Momoshiki and Kinshiki have that on their profiles, i know you can be a threat to someone , but its not just being a threat.
Sasuke says their threats to her Inspite of her Power
He also thinks their greater Threats then her in general, again, impossible if she has a massive hax advantage alongside an 800 Million times power advantage.
Unless this is somehow talking about base Kaguya, which is a very stupid thing to include since its not like Kaguyas form is treated as a super saiyan transformation thats just something she could do with ther abilities
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the in universe implications and statements only necessitate that momo and kin above v1 and weaker forms of Kaguya, Id propose momo too but people might argue Kaguya may not have the same plans as before after having newly acquired power as she no longer needs narutos chakra and is okay killing him off so we cant prove any connection to momo tier people, he thinks theyre stronger than her because pre war kaguya seeked an army to combat them we cant prove her intentions would stay the same
only isshikis one makes sense because explicit statement+body destruction
but either way this is another can of worms that I dont wanna get into so please drop it
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Their Hyped up as threats greater then her, not just threats to her
Its not another can of worms, this is connected to the post , Either Drop kaguyas scaling or were gonna talk about why the author didnt intend to make Fusion Momoshiki several hundred million times weaker with his strongest attack then kaguya
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Firstly, I'll say that I do like the opening post; it's a well-written, concise argument for the characters.
However there is a fundamental portion of the argument that I'm not convinced by.
Just because a Limited Energy System means you can scale certain abilities used by the same character with the same energy source to each other, doesn't mean that you have to or that you necessarily should.
Several characters in Naruto have various forms of Ninjutsu; all of which is powered by their chakra but have varying levels of potency.
The calc being currently lowballed into being an acceptable result doesn't justify the scaling by itself and it hasn't been established in the series that this is an "ultra casual energy output" as the OP claims. Her Eighty Gods Vacuum Fist and All-Killing Ash Bones also haven't been stated or shown anywhere to consume "immense amounts" of chakra from Kaguya; there is simply no solid reason for them to "scale far beyond" the energy she's putting into the ETSO.
Kakashi's Perfect Susano'o, in terms of durability, is currently featless. Kaguya's All-Killing Ash Bones penetrating Kakashi's Susano'o isn't strong support for her attacks being High 4-C either as Kakashi's Susano'o even if we scaled it to being "possibly Low 5-B" to match his AP rating with Kamui Raikiri would still be weaker than Kaguya even without Kaguya's V2 attacks being that strong. V1 Kaguya with her Eighty Gods Vacuum Fist was tearing Sasuke's Susano'o apart as you said and Kakashi's Susano'o is unlikely to be tougher than that.
What the page on Universal Energy Systems has to say is this:
I don't think it's been sufficiently demonstrated that the amount of power Kaguya uses for her ETSO and her other Ninjutsu-based attacks is comparable or superior.
If we look at the few attacks she performs after absorbing the additional chakra that actually land on someone:
The current proposal is that Kaguya, by absorbing the additional chakra from the Infinite Tsukuyomi victims, amplified by her Ninjutsu's potency by about 9.06 billion times, since that's the difference between what her Ninjutsu scale to before (845.9 Exatons) and what it's being scaled to after (7.664 Quettatons).
If Kaguya had truly gotten stronger to that extent... then why did she have to resort to such measures as creating the Expansive Truth-Seeking Orb in the first place? Her Eighty Gods Vacuum Fist, which she can spam out, would each be billions of times stronger than Naruto or Sasuke... Instead of contemplating running away from them, she could've just swatted them like bugs yet the only thing that crosses her mind when cornered by them is to hit them with the durability-negating Ash-Bones or to escape to another dimension, or to fly away.
There is the statement from Black Zetsu that Kaguya's power increased, enhancing her "might and speed exponentially"... but the peformance she gives in the fight doesn't support a jump of that magnitude. As mentioned, she doesn't exhibit any Ninjutsu feats that would put her far stronger than she was before, and as far as her speed goes she only narrowly manages to avoid Naruto and Sasuke, and also suffers from getting tagged by both Kakashi's Kamui Raikiri and Sakura's punch, plus Kakashi reacting to her attack speed multiple times. If we're to believe that her raw power with Ninjutsu increased billions of times, it seems odd that her speed seems barely better than before despite both power and speed being grouped together as being increased by the chakra she absorbed.
Since most of the consistency statements aren't to do with the root issue I have with the scaling as far as I can see, I'll just address one of them:
This translation that you've linked to does not have Isshiki say he has insurmountable power, but that he is brimming with incredible power.
Now, frankly I can see where the OP is coming from with their arguments and I do think they're well-written but for, what I see, the two options that exist being:
Still though, powerscaling isn't an exact science so I can understand why people might think it's also perfectly safe to assume that the characters scale to that level so if a majority of staff are swayed by the OP and think it's acceptable then I won't fight against that and I'll be fine going along with it.
However there is a fundamental portion of the argument that I'm not convinced by.
Just because a Limited Energy System means you can scale certain abilities used by the same character with the same energy source to each other, doesn't mean that you have to or that you necessarily should.
Several characters in Naruto have various forms of Ninjutsu; all of which is powered by their chakra but have varying levels of potency.
The calc being currently lowballed into being an acceptable result doesn't justify the scaling by itself and it hasn't been established in the series that this is an "ultra casual energy output" as the OP claims. Her Eighty Gods Vacuum Fist and All-Killing Ash Bones also haven't been stated or shown anywhere to consume "immense amounts" of chakra from Kaguya; there is simply no solid reason for them to "scale far beyond" the energy she's putting into the ETSO.
Kakashi's Perfect Susano'o, in terms of durability, is currently featless. Kaguya's All-Killing Ash Bones penetrating Kakashi's Susano'o isn't strong support for her attacks being High 4-C either as Kakashi's Susano'o even if we scaled it to being "possibly Low 5-B" to match his AP rating with Kamui Raikiri would still be weaker than Kaguya even without Kaguya's V2 attacks being that strong. V1 Kaguya with her Eighty Gods Vacuum Fist was tearing Sasuke's Susano'o apart as you said and Kakashi's Susano'o is unlikely to be tougher than that.
What the page on Universal Energy Systems has to say is this:
I don't think it's been sufficiently demonstrated that the amount of power Kaguya uses for her ETSO and her other Ninjutsu-based attacks is comparable or superior.
If we look at the few attacks she performs after absorbing the additional chakra that actually land on someone:
- Fires an All-Killing Ash Bone as a Naruto Shadow Clone.
- Fires All-Killing Ash Bones from her back at Kakashi's Susano'o.
The current proposal is that Kaguya, by absorbing the additional chakra from the Infinite Tsukuyomi victims, amplified by her Ninjutsu's potency by about 9.06 billion times, since that's the difference between what her Ninjutsu scale to before (845.9 Exatons) and what it's being scaled to after (7.664 Quettatons).
If Kaguya had truly gotten stronger to that extent... then why did she have to resort to such measures as creating the Expansive Truth-Seeking Orb in the first place? Her Eighty Gods Vacuum Fist, which she can spam out, would each be billions of times stronger than Naruto or Sasuke... Instead of contemplating running away from them, she could've just swatted them like bugs yet the only thing that crosses her mind when cornered by them is to hit them with the durability-negating Ash-Bones or to escape to another dimension, or to fly away.
There is the statement from Black Zetsu that Kaguya's power increased, enhancing her "might and speed exponentially"... but the peformance she gives in the fight doesn't support a jump of that magnitude. As mentioned, she doesn't exhibit any Ninjutsu feats that would put her far stronger than she was before, and as far as her speed goes she only narrowly manages to avoid Naruto and Sasuke, and also suffers from getting tagged by both Kakashi's Kamui Raikiri and Sakura's punch, plus Kakashi reacting to her attack speed multiple times. If we're to believe that her raw power with Ninjutsu increased billions of times, it seems odd that her speed seems barely better than before despite both power and speed being grouped together as being increased by the chakra she absorbed.
Since most of the consistency statements aren't to do with the root issue I have with the scaling as far as I can see, I'll just address one of them:
This translation that you've linked to does not have Isshiki say he has insurmountable power, but that he is brimming with incredible power.
Now, frankly I can see where the OP is coming from with their arguments and I do think they're well-written but for, what I see, the two options that exist being:
- Kaguya absorbing chakra from the victims of Infinite Tsukuyomi made her indeterminately stronger than before.
- Kaguya absorbing chakra from the victims of Infinite Tsukuyomi made her billions of times stronger than before.
Still though, powerscaling isn't an exact science so I can understand why people might think it's also perfectly safe to assume that the characters scale to that level so if a majority of staff are swayed by the OP and think it's acceptable then I won't fight against that and I'll be fine going along with it.
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Not really, she has to land a hit first and they are superior to her strength -wise and speed-wise. Think of it like this, since their physicals scale higher than Kaguya, they can simply blitz her.
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Anyway, I have no issues at all with BM Naruto and Isshiki scaling to Low 4-C.
Why does her "Ninjutsu" (whatever that means in specific) scale above her "EPS"? The OP doesn't really answer that question for me. Are you saying her jutsu like her Hair Manipulation would scale to Low 4-C? I'm not really seeing the basis. I don't see why her other Ninjutsu would have the opportunity scaling above her EPS. Her Vacuum Jutsu IIRC is stated in a Databook that it's something only she can do thanks to her massive amounts of chakra but her Ash Killing Jutsu I'm not even sure that has any statements of that regard.
Why does her "Ninjutsu" (whatever that means in specific) scale above her "EPS"? The OP doesn't really answer that question for me. Are you saying her jutsu like her Hair Manipulation would scale to Low 4-C? I'm not really seeing the basis. I don't see why her other Ninjutsu would have the opportunity scaling above her EPS. Her Vacuum Jutsu IIRC is stated in a Databook that it's something only she can do thanks to her massive amounts of chakra but her Ash Killing Jutsu I'm not even sure that has any statements of that regard.
Godernet
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All Killing Ash Bone is layered Decon so i don't think it needs to be listed but you're right otherwise
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you know when Slayer reworked Hagoromo's lore? my argument takes some inspiration from that
since hagoromo did the moon feat in his weakened dying state, it scales to all his keys
similarly kaguya is calced to be able to at least pour in l4c levels of chakra continously for 15 years straight without breaks rests sleeps etc, its an abundant supply since its been divided by billions
which makes her ultra casual release that strong, given how ninjutsu in general are far higher than physical attacks, the EGVF is a dojutsu based ability, even low tier dojutsu like MS draw in several times more chakra than normal ninjutsu (this is why susano is far beyond sasukes normal attacks)
so if her casual release is this strong, then her combat based attacks would be even more stronger
however if you believe only EGVF should be allowed to scale to l4c I am fine with removing ashbones and only listing egvf
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As far as I'm aware it still needs to pierce it's target to actually deconstruct it
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Thank you for response damage, I will properly address this hopefully by tonight, I just want to point out I brought the susano being cracked to show her ap is strong, we dont see the susano being turned to dust or deconstructed, its just cracked from raw power is all I was trying to say
i dont plan on giving kakashi any scaling towards v2 kaguya except for his speed which is already on his profile
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Okay, understood.
Godernet
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it begins turning you to dust the second it hits your body
that's straight on contact dura neg if I've ever seen it
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The susano was not turned to dust, it was cracked
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You Ninja'd me here, but yes I fully agree.
I mean.. it's a big ass Jutsu that as far as she knew, they had no way of countering. Hell if it wasn't for Kakashi's Kamui, she would've gotten away with it and killed them all. Yeah, she could've used EGVF, but we don't use "could've's" as arguments to disprove or prove claims. She could've used EGVF, but didn't.
The OP isn't arguing that Kaguya's speed is being amped as much as her AP, so I'm not sure why speed is being brought up here. Her speed amp was pretty mid, we all know that, even Kakashi managed to respond and react to Kaguya's attacks twice. But that's completely separate from what the OP's addressing here. We don't assume AP and Speed got increased at the same amount unless explicitly stated otherwise, and that wouldn't change here.
MinatoSparkle
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AP and speed aren't necessarily proportional, but they are definitely correlated
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I'm not sure about that.
Means
The word 突き刺さる specifically means "to pierce" or "run into", not just hit.
Specifically this part 刺さる refers to "pierce" or being "stuck into". The second sentence uses a past tense of that, 刺さった
So rather than the target being disintegrated right after being simply hit, it begins to disintegrate right after being stabbed/pierced.
