- 4,432
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I also agree that there should be more time given to the opposing side to form a complete counter-argument if one hasn't already been given.
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The solo reason we have an Animal Realm/dimension? Is mentioned by Komamura’s grandfather. Hope expanse on it later with the new two wolves kids that Komamura send to Seireitei to study. Hell in Bleach is not the general public believe of it. Even does who commit suicide can go to Soul Society and not Hell. (I have the scans for this if you want those ^^^)How does an "academic" paper about "SIMBOLIZM" relate to literally anything in particular about Bleach cosmology?
I wouldn’t be 100% sure on that. I’m neutral on those sketches but most of them were added to the anime. This ones could be to. We have to wait and see for those.@KingJod23; those are sketches from volume extras. They don't mean anything and are symbolic at best.
^disagree fra
this pretty much debunks the OPThe must important event is why didn’t Earth and the humans felt the “planets” moving to their original place? Surely, removing Earth from the sun and moon orbit would had caused some problems. The world would had gone dark with no moonlight or stars.
In the light novels we are given the reaction of how some humans created a cult religion base on the earthquakes caused by the Soul King’s death.
This was a small earthquake that lasted too long. Now pulling away planets instead of universes would had cause a huge impact on the planet, but if it was on the universe we wouldn’t had seem the effects from Earth in the movie or manga.
@Reio35 found this below
戸魂界と現世は、それぞれ別個に独立して存在する並列世界である。その異世界の間を行き来するために用いられるのがこの「穿界門」である。その通行の際には、死神のみが携行可能なせんかいもんじごくちょう黒い趨を持つ墓「地獄蝶」が必要とされる。
The Soul Society and this world are parallel worlds that exist separately and independently. It is this "Kaikaimon" that is used to go back and forth between the different worlds. When passing through, a grave "Hell Butterfly" with a black sword that only the god of death can carry is required.
They exists independently which means their dimensions
I dont think so, Reio just found that scan for the first time and sent it, I dont think it was adressed in the threadPretty sure this has already been addressed in the thread. Why would anyone experience any disturbance? Nobody is assuming the planets are hurtling through normal space.
That hasn’t been addressed thoPretty sure this has already been addressed in the thread. Why would anyone experience any disturbance? Nobody is assuming the planets are hurtling through normal space.
The yellow in the middle of the 2 spheres is the valley of screams. The 2 spheres are ss and the wol
Why bring this up? No one has denied they exist in their own dimension.@Reio35 found this below
戸魂界と現世は、それぞれ別個に独立して存在する並列世界である。その異世界の間を行き来するために用いられるのがこの「穿界門」である。その通行の際には、死神のみが携行可能なせんかいもんじごくちょう黒い趨を持つ墓「地獄蝶」が必要とされる。
The Soul Society and this world are parallel worlds that exist separately and independently. It is this "Kaikaimon" that is used to go back and forth between the different worlds. When passing through, a grave "Hell Butterfly" with a black sword that only the god of death can carry is required.
They exists independently which means their dimensions
I'm genuinely confused here. Is the OP suggesting that Outer Space = Gargantua? Not making assumptions just asking
I think he's saying it's a small dimension that overlaps the space across hm,ss and the wol.If by all the dimensions you mean the main universe too, then that's not confirmed. It can be a smaller dimension too that only exists across Earth, SS and HM dimensionally. We cannot ascertain its full size with only that much information.
SS and WotL were on a collision course (not the planets).It was the Kyogoku. We are told at the very start that it is because of the Kyogoku that everything is happening. The planets were on a collision course because of the Kyogoku.
We see the Valley connecting the dimensions, not the planets as the sky above Seireitei is not the planet of SS.And we see the Kyogoku connecting Earth and SS.
Fairly certain everyone agrees the planets weren’t moving within their own dimensions.We see the Kyogoku having an entrance at the lake and Earth appearing in SS's sky. But we don't see the Kyogoku normally since it is not in the same dimension. Two planets that are in different dimensions were connected to each other and were moving towards each other along a separate dimension. They don't have to move in their respective dimensions for that.
Collided how? From what we were shown in Kisuke’s explanation, the realms were going to be pulled into the Dangai which means the planets would have to disappear from view of the main dimensions.They would have collided without actually moving in their respective main spaces or without disappearing from view.
So I read the post and it doesn’t actually answer my question nor what I brought up.It is possible that they could have completely fallen inside the Kyogoku somehow, or not, but that is just me making a guess since we never got to the point of the actual collision.
I went into much more detail about the same thing here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/sennas-feat-2-ft-bleach-cosmology.128164/page-2#post-4330361
Addressed where?Pretty sure this has already been addressed in the thread. Why would anyone experience any disturbance? Nobody is assuming the planets are hurtling through normal space.
NowhereAddressed where?
Your opinion on who's winning and has more arguments isn't needed. As more arguments doesn't mean anything unless they are sound. One argument can overrule multiple arguments if they aren't strong enough.So far the disagreeing side is winning and has more arguments than the agreeing side tbh
Second page of this thread by AKM.Addressed where?
If Earth is being pulled then why isn't it hurtling through space?
Because Earth is not moving in that space. Earth and SS are dimensionally separate and they are moving across dimensions. Their movement being facilitated by another dimension called Kyogoku.
For example, in a XYZ plane, if you have a point at the coordinates (3,4,1) and it is moved along the z axis to (3,4,5), did it move in the xy plane? No. As far as the xy plane is concerned, it did not move. It moved only across the z axis. The same logic follows when we talk about moving across dimensions. Earth moving across another pocket dimension =/= Earth moving in the main universe.
Then why isn't the explosion is seen in space? Why didn't Earth get flung into space by that explosion?
Because the explosion only happened in Kyogoku and Dangai. Why would it be visible on Earth? Why would Earth get flung into space when the explosion didn't occur in the main universe? This isn't hard to understand. Alternatively you could also make an argument that the worlds returned to their stable positions by themselves as soon as Kyogoku was completely destroyed, because it's a law of nature that if no force is being applied, things always tend to go to a stable state of existence.
If you still don't understand how dimensions are supposed to work, I don't think I can explain it better atm. Maybe @DontTalkDT can enlighten you on that. But from what I can see, there is a clear lack of understanding on how pocket dimensions work, that is the source of all these weird comments that are mostly coming from new members with only 10-200 comments.
Your logic only works if that explosion happens inside the universe.For a second, let us assume two universes were being pulled together and Senna's explosions caused them to reverse their direction. Okay?
For such an explosion that literally changes the course of the universe in mere seconds, the impact would be so great that multiple galaxies would have been destroyed on the spot. Not only that, the entire universe would shake. A side effect of such a process would result in tremors across the universes. That means tremors on every planet, every star, every galaxy, including Earth and SS planet. And not just baby tremors like normal earthquakes. Life-wiping destruction like the one that wiped away the dinosaurs, if not a clear cut destruction of the planet itself.
Does that happen in the movie? No. So your argument arises from an incorrect understanding of the events.
Let's understand the event correctly then.
Just because some portal opened on Earth doesn't mean its only limited to Earth.Is the Earth and SS planet connected together through the Kyogoku?
Yes, you can literally enter Kyogoku dimension from Earth and we see Earth in SS's sky. The dimension connects the two.
Well Earth was pulled inside said dimension...so its insides should be visible easily.Then why is the dimension not visible?
Because it is literally another dimension.
That's your assumption...do you have proof of that?If Earth is being pulled then why isn't it hurtling through space?
Because Earth is not moving in that space. Earth and SS are dimensionally separate and they are moving across dimensions. Their movement being facilitated by another dimension called Kyogoku.
For example, in a XYZ plane, if you have a point at the coordinates (3,4,1) and it is moved along the z axis to (3,4,5), did it move in the xy plane? No. As far as the xy plane is concerned, it did not move. It moved only across the z axis. The same logic follows when we talk about moving across dimensions. Earth moving across another pocket dimension =/= Earth moving in the main universe.
Stable equilibrium only applies when there is a restorative force to bring back everything to default energy states/position.Then why isn't the explosion is seen in space? Why didn't Earth get flung into space by that explosion?
Because the explosion only happened in Kyogoku and Dangai. Why would it be visible on Earth? Why would Earth get flung into space when the explosion didn't occur in the main universe? This isn't hard to understand. Alternatively you could also make an argument that the worlds returned to their stable positions by themselves as soon as Kyogoku was completely destroyed, because it's a law of nature that if no force is being applied, things always tend to go to a stable state of existence.
1) That should alone be enough to debunk the "planet only" arguements. The explanation in context of SS/HW is that they are likened to planets. A similie. Something which wouldn't be need to done if it were actually planets.Why don't you enumerate all the instances of context (1)? i.e. examples where the term "Soul Society" could refer to the dimension at large
So far, the only somewhat credible example of that context being used is the novel statement talking about "if the WoTL and SS could be likened to planets"
A comparison between 2 unlike objects.Full Definition of simile
: a figure of speech comparing two unlike things that is often introduced by like or as (as in cheeks like roses).
What is any of that supposed to mean?The solo reason we have an Animal Realm/dimension? Is mentioned by Komamura’s grandfather. Hope expanse on it later with the new two wolves kids that Komamura send to Seireitei to study. Hell in Bleach is not the general public believe of it. Even does who commit suicide can go to Soul Society and not Hell. (I have the scans for this if you want those ^^^)
The Earth and the planet/"world" Venus also exist separately and independently. This proves absolutely nothing whatsoever, and I think the side in favor of OP understands that they're separate dimensions anyway. The problem is proving that either dimension has any real spatial extent beyond planet-sized, which no one has actually done yet.They exists independently which means their dimensions
It means separately as in spatially not like your Venus and earth analogy. That doesn't even make sense with the context. Which is way it says you need the senkimon Which is used for moving to other dimensions to get their.What is any of that supposed to mean?
The Earth and the planet/"world" Venus also exist separately and independently. This proves absolutely nothing whatsoever, and I think the side in favor of OP understands that they're separate dimensions anyway. The problem is proving that either dimension has any real spatial extent beyond planet-sized, which no one has actually done yet.
Soul Society and World of the Living are accepted so far in this thread as their own dimension. Each one has its own sun, moon and stars. All matter in Soul Society is made up of Reishi, and all matter in the World of the Living is made up of Kishi. Kishi cannot enter Soul Society. That means they do not share the same celestial bodies.The problem is proving that either dimension has any real spatial extent beyond planet-sized, which no one has actually done yet.
Mainly because it doesn't make much sense for it to be just the planets colliding otherwise the inhabitants of each world would have noticed their respective planet about to smash into each other and panic. And I'm not talking about the effects of the planets moving, I'm talking about them visually seeing another planet smash into them. If no one on Earth comments on the event then we know, they saw nothing was wrong.
Normal humans aren't aware of the event because it's not like a real planet like Mars was on a collision course with Earth that can be seen in the sky. You can't see Soul Society in the sky you know? It's in another dimension. Two planets in two different dimensions were getting connected by another dimension. Normal humans aren't even aware about the existence of Soul Society, they can't even see Hollows or Soul Reapers. They don't have the magical ability to see across different dimensions. But you can see the entrance of that dimension in the lake here. And you can see Earth's town appearing in Soul Society's sky here. And everybody in Soul Society knew about it. So if you are going to disagree based on this logic alone, then that'd be wrong because you have misinterpreted the events somewhat.because if the place their in could effect the color of the worlds then obviously the people in the worlds would have noticed the change in the color of the sky/space they are in
Exactly. Thank you. That is my point. And it was your logic that you said the planets should fling across space. I just pointed out how your logic contradicts your assumption.Your logic only works if that explosion happens inside the universe.
Remember this explosion happens inside Dangai...outside the space-time of either universes (we are already told Dangai is separated space-time fyi, something already accepted).
You are just making this up. Where is the universe explained like this in Bleach? Universes don't have a hard outer shell. What are you even talking about?All the explosions did was push away the universes in Dangai by impacting the outer shell of universes. Since an universe is a completely closed of system
It wasn't. Mayuri's monitor caught that. Everyone in the Soul Society knows about it. Kisuke knew. It only went unnoticed by the normal people because they are not aware of Soul Society and all that jazz. They can't even see Soul Reapers and whatnot. They don't have the power to magically see through dimensions.But how come Earth moving in Dangai is went unnoticed by everyone??
I'll go into detail and hope that you understand. Hopefully it will put an end to this particular argument. Let's look at the statement and ask some basic questions:A similie. Something which wouldn't be need to done if it were actually planets.
Context is the king, and you clearly don't understand the context of this statement because Tokinada wasn't trying to explain what is Garganta, but rather what is Kyogoku.You can't understand a statement by isolating a few words from it. You have to look at the entire context, because context is king.
That doesn't mean the effects of said events are intangible/invisible.Normal humans aren't aware of the event because it's not like a real planet like Mars was on a collision course with Earth that can be seen in the sky. You can't see Soul Society in the sky you know? It's in another dimension. Two planets in two different dimensions were getting connected by another dimension. Normal humans aren't even aware about the existence of Soul Society, they can't even see Hollows or Soul Reapers. They don't have the magical ability to see across different dimensions.
Uuhhhh.Exactly. Thank you. That is my point. And it was your logic that you said the planets should fling across space. I just pointed out how your logic contradicts your assumption.
Then you missed the point completely.You are just making this up. Where is the universe explained like this in Bleach? Universes don't have a hard outer shell. What are you even talking about?
Soul Society is fine...they have devices inside the Dangai to track all the shenanigans.It wasn't. Mayuri's monitor caught that. Everyone in the Soul Society knows about it. Kisuke knew. It only went unnoticed by the normal people because they are not aware of Soul Society and all that jazz. They can't even see Soul Reapers and whatnot. They don't have the power to magically see through dimensions.
Okay.Q: What is the purpose of this statement?
The purpose of this statement is to explain what Garganta is.
Okay. So since the comparison is between two "unlike" elements. Garganta in actuality unlike space, ergo it isn't a space.Q: What is Garganta being compared to?
Garganta is being compared to the space between/surrounding two planets.
Its nothing like space at all. Its just an analogical comparison.Q: What does that mean?
That Garganta isn't exactly space. But is kind of like the space that exists between two real life planets. For example, if WotL and SS were two planets like Jupiter and Saturn that had outer space surrounding them, then that outer space is like Garganta.
And these different dimensions are called Soul Society and Human/Mortal World etc respectively.Q: Are WotL and SS planets that are surrounded by a common outer space?
No, WotL and SS are not normal planets like Jupiter and Saturn that have outer space between them. They are planets that reside in different dimensions. And Garganta is what surrounds them.
Everyone already knows that.Q: But what does that mean?
It means that if you want to go from Earth to Soul Society which is in a different dimension, you can't just rip a dimensional hole and automatically reach Soul Society. If you rip a dimensional hole, you'll encounter the Garganta dimension. You'll have to go through Garganta first and rip another dimensional hole to reach Soul Society.
Do you have definitive proof of this "overlapping"??1) That is, sadly, you not understanding how dimensions work. Garganta is a dimension with its own space and time. It overlaps with Earth. You can literally rip apart the dimensional wall and you'll see Garganta existing. Just like how RoSaT is another dimension with its own space-time that exists alongside Earth, and can be accessed by ripping the dimensional walls, but you don't see RoSaT normally, unless you have some magical power that allows you to see parallelly existing dimensions. I am not s
Sadly for you, Yoruichi says that Garganta exists as the black void that surrounds dimension, it doesn't exist as RoSaT, i.e parallel dimension to Earth.1) That is, sadly, you not understanding how dimensions work. Garganta is a dimension with its own space and time. It overlaps with Earth. You can literally rip apart the dimensional wall and you'll see Garganta existing. Just like how RoSaT is another dimension with its own space-time that exists alongside Earth, and can be accessed by ripping the dimensional walls, but you don't see RoSaT normally, unless you have some magical power that allows you to see parallelly existing dimensions.
They exist in the SS dimension and WoTL dimension, that's what the scan proves, again, nothing in the story supports your interpretation.2) True. Never denied it. Stars don't exist in Garganta. They exist in the universe and in the dimension where Soul Society is.
Oh, so you are saying that our universe is also our Earth? Because that's not what existence of relativity means, sigh, it seems I'm going to explain physics now.3) Earth's science. Yes, WotL is based on Earth.
Don't create a headcanon because it's difficult for you to understand both language and manga, I'm not being rude at all, also you haven't addressed my question:Don't be rude just because it is difficult for you to understand something.
I'm excited to see the new grammar rule that you are going to invent for this statement.Also, a question, if that statement isn't a Simile or if clause statement, please enlighten us on which English style is used there.
Humans regularly experience physical effects of all the ruckus caused by Hollows/Soul Reapers. We are shown that in very first episodes itself. Its always mistaken for some natural disaster or accident which cannot be explained.
Difference here is that hollows actually physically attack them on their planet in their dimension. The explosions are not happening on Earth or SS. They are happening in Dangai. Which is disconnected from Earth by time and space. A separate pocket dimension.Why did they not suffer trauma of all these dimensional shenanigans and explosions?
I mean, this is the point of the thread. You just need to provide an instance where they use the terms SS and WotL to refer to dimensions. There are several instances where they refer to planets only. Kisuke blatantly refers to SS as planet which is in another dimension, while not naming the dimension anything. And even then, if we take it on a case-by-case basis, then also it doesn't conclusively imply that.And these different dimensions are called Soul Society and Human/Mortal World etc respectively.
Is there proof of it being a portal?Just because you rip open a portal
There is proof that Garganta exists as a black void the surrounds SS and WoTL, it exists there, it doesn't exist as a parallel dimension for them, the burden of proof is on you to prove that it's stated to be like that because the opposite is stated by Kisuke and Yoruichi, Tokinada said they aren't planets, you are the one who has to bring a statement that is at least as clear as Tokinada’s statement if you wanna say that they are planets.Is there proof of it being a portal?
Also this is false. RoSaT doesn't exist inside the room. Destruction of the room doesn't destroy RoSaT. It is a pocket dimension that exists parallel to Earth. Room is just an entrance. Dimensions overlapping together is something that is very common in fiction.Also that RoSaT example is not a good example its a planetary sized pocket dimension inside Kami's lookout.
Something quite common in fiction.
Like Mechicabura from DBH or Saviour from DMC.
They don't overlap. They just contain the said realms inside themselves in compactified forms.
How about you start reading to you know understand then give a reply instead of reading to give a reply, i will give you an instance of you reading to give a reply and not understand what he is sayingstuffs.
He never said all what you are accusing him of saying, he is saying they reside in a different dimension but with garganta as the space between the dimensions. he never said the planets are surrounded by garganta he said the dimensions and he never said it in any of his previous post. hence this statement "They are planets that reside in different dimensions and garganta is what surrounds them"Q: Are WotL and SS planets that are surrounded by a common outer space?
No, WotL and SS are not normal planets like Jupiter and Saturn that have outer space between them. They are planets that reside in different dimensions. And Garganta is what surrounds them.
Actually, when we use SS and WoTL to refer to planets, we can see that those planets are surrounded by a common outer space, what AKM is trying to say is that those planets are surrounded by the Garganta but we can't see it, while we all know that this is a pure headcanon from him that wasn't even mentioned in the whole story, as its wrong for many reasons.
1) Garganta isn't an invisible thing and it's never been stated, it's a void of Reishi and Reishi only, if it's invisible to soul reapers then SS should be invisible too to them, Garganta and SS are made by the same matter, and both are spiritual worlds, but SS dimension exists inside Garganta, and its shown as a black void that surrounds those dimensions, not a parallel dimension like RoSaT (which is AKM false interpretation)
Here's the proof that you don't actually open a portal to another dimension. You can just rip open the dimensional walls and there it is, the garganta. Like, this is the most blatant proof that Garganta dimension overlaps with Earth. You don't need anything else.Just because you rip open a portal to a dimension doesn't mean it overlaps with you.
How about I give you a lesson on how using a strawman won't help you with me, instead of coming and repeating the same false interpretation that contradicts the manga.How about you start reading to you know understand then give a reply instead of reading to give a reply, i will give you an instance of you reading to give a reply and not understand what he is saying
Actually, he is saying that Garganta exists as RoSaT, it's not my problem if you understand neither me nor him, and that interpretation contradicts Yoruichi when she explained the cosmology using a panel that Kisuke who is more credible than your baseless headcanon.He never said all what you are accusing him of saying, he is saying they reside in a different dimension but with garganta as the space between the dimensions. he never said the planets are surrounded by garganta he said the dimensions and he never said it in any of his previous post. hence this statement "They are planets that reside in different dimensions and garganta is what surrounds them"
Funny how you never provided a statement from the manga that supports AKM’s interpretation and went on using ad-hominem, while my arguments are clear cut supported by sources from the manga, I don't blame you tho, AKM failed to bring a piece of evidence as well.all your post are just reading to reply cause well "muah it will downgrade my fav series" i can give other instances of you not addressing his point or taking them out of context like i showed above but frankly it is not worth it as it does not matter you did not address anything in the OP
Amazing strawman there, I never mentioned Yhwach nor SK in this entire thread, that's what happens when you don't know what you are talking about, I was using the explanation of the cosmology from TYBW arc, are you saying that the manga has a different cosmology than the movie? what an amazing understanding of the verse.and this is about Senna feat not SK and yhwach they shill have their feat, this is about the 3B or 3C senna feat.
I never said that only the Earth was moving, stop accusing me of shit that I never spoke.and going off your statement that the WotL follows normal science so we should use normal science for it lol bruhh dont even bring that here, or what do you think will happen if the earth started moving at mftl+ speed and then suddenly stooped and started moving in the opposite direction?
nobody cares about what you think about me.(i am not talking about the universe expansion as i am sure you wont get that and you will try to reply not understand)
I'm saying that Relativity applies to WoTL universe rules, I never said anything about SS or Senna’s feat, WoTL is based on our universe, any other thing in the verse that happens doesn't mean shit because its:i am saying the current universe should pick up it speed at mftl+, as the dimensions that are uinversal size have to be going that fast to even meet within a few hours, your theory of relativity that wotl follows states one thing total annihilation of the universe aside the fact that it is not possible too cause you know nothing is faster than light as per the entire physics thing that WotL follows, so out with your follows science it is fiction they can say whatever they want.
fiction
Funny how neither you nor AKM provided a piece of evidence for your claims, all you say is that X is like this, Y is like that, and let me tell you that nobody cares about opinions if said opinions contradict the manga,while i did not want to reply to this thread personally before cause well i also saw bleach and i know nothing concrete in the series can debunk the OP at most you will get possibly, so i dont want to bother i really just had to reply to you as you really did not read his post to understand what he was saying or what he was replying to
I quoted that to approve on his statement that context is the king, was I wrong with that? Then I proceeded to debunk his claims.you only took his words out of contextright after saying context is king