Senna's Feat 2 (ft. Bleach Cosmology)

[Duedate8898]

I also agree that there should be more time given to the opposing side to form a complete counter-argument if one hasn't already been given.

 

[AppleLord]

How does an "academic" paper about "SIMBOLIZM" relate to literally anything in particular about Bleach cosmology?

The solo reason we have an Animal Realm/dimension? Is mentioned by Komamura’s grandfather. Hope expanse on it later with the new two wolves kids that Komamura send to Seireitei to study. Hell in Bleach is not the general public believe of it. Even does who commit suicide can go to Soul Society and not Hell. (I have the scans for this if you want those ^^^)

 

[AppleLord]

@KingJod23; those are sketches from volume extras. They don't mean anything and are symbolic at best.

I wouldn’t be 100% sure on that. I’m neutral on those sketches but most of them were added to the anime. This ones could be to. We have to wait and see for those.

 

[KingJod23]

disagree fra

^

 

[AppleLord]

The must important event is why didn’t Earth and the humans felt the “planets” moving to their original place? Surely, removing Earth from the sun and moon orbit would had caused some problems. The world would had gone dark with no moonlight or stars.

In the light novels we are given the reaction of how some humans created a cult religion base on the earthquakes caused by the Soul King’s death.

This was a small earthquake that lasted too long. Now pulling away planets instead of universes would had cause a huge impact on the planet, but if it was on the universe we wouldn’t had seem the effects from Earth in the movie or manga.

@Reio35 found this below

戸魂界と現世は、それぞれ別個に独立して存在する並列世界である。その異世界の間を行き来するために用いられるのがこの「穿界門」である。その通行の際には、死神のみが携行可能なせんかいもんじごくちょう黒い趨を持つ墓「地獄蝶」が必要とされる。
The Soul Society and this world are parallel worlds that exist separately and independently. It is this "Kaikaimon" that is used to go back and forth between the different worlds. When passing through, a grave "Hell Butterfly" with a black sword that only the god of death can carry is required.

They exists independently which means their dimensions

 

[StrawHatArslan]

The must important event is why didn’t Earth and the humans felt the “planets” moving to their original place? Surely, removing Earth from the sun and moon orbit would had caused some problems. The world would had gone dark with no moonlight or stars.

In the light novels we are given the reaction of how some humans created a cult religion base on the earthquakes caused by the Soul King’s death.

This was a small earthquake that lasted too long. Now pulling away planets instead of universes would had cause a huge impact on the planet, but if it was on the universe we wouldn’t had seem the effects from Earth in the movie or manga.

@Reio35 found this below

戸魂界と現世は、それぞれ別個に独立して存在する並列世界である。その異世界の間を行き来するために用いられるのがこの「穿界門」である。その通行の際には、死神のみが携行可能なせんかいもんじごくちょう黒い趨を持つ墓「地獄蝶」が必要とされる。
The Soul Society and this world are parallel worlds that exist separately and independently. It is this "Kaikaimon" that is used to go back and forth between the different worlds. When passing through, a grave "Hell Butterfly" with a black sword that only the god of death can carry is required.

They exists independently which means their dimensions

this pretty much debunks the OP

 

[Damage3245]

Pretty sure this has already been addressed in the thread. Why would anyone experience any disturbance? Nobody is assuming the planets are hurtling through normal space.

 

[YukaSama4]

Pretty sure this has already been addressed in the thread. Why would anyone experience any disturbance? Nobody is assuming the planets are hurtling through normal space.

I dont think so, Reio just found that scan for the first time and sent it, I dont think it was adressed in the thread

 

[Reio35]

Akm said the universe would have shook and galaxies would have been destroyed. That would only make sense if dimensions were treated like planets. A dimensions is not like a planet which has a open sky were things can come in and be seen it has a wall/boundary

If they were planets the explosion would be seen by everyone and their would have shockwaves throughout the planets.

If they were dimensions the dimensional wall/boundary would block the explosion and it would not be seen

So dimension would make the most sense in this case

 

[KingJod23]

Pretty sure this has already been addressed in the thread. Why would anyone experience any disturbance? Nobody is assuming the planets are hurtling through normal space.

That hasn’t been addressed tho

 

[Swerzye29038]

The yellow in the middle of the 2 spheres is the valley of screams. The 2 spheres are ss and the wol

I'm genuinely confused here. Is the OP suggesting that Outer Space = Gargantua? Not making assumptions just asking

 

[LordGriffin1000]

@Reio35 found this below

戸魂界と現世は、それぞれ別個に独立して存在する並列世界である。その異世界の間を行き来するために用いられるのがこの「穿界門」である。その通行の際には、死神のみが携行可能なせんかいもんじごくちょう黒い趨を持つ墓「地獄蝶」が必要とされる。
The Soul Society and this world are parallel worlds that exist separately and independently. It is this "Kaikaimon" that is used to go back and forth between the different worlds. When passing through, a grave "Hell Butterfly" with a black sword that only the god of death can carry is required.

They exists independently which means their dimensions

Why bring this up? No one has denied they exist in their own dimension.

 

[Reio35]

I'm genuinely confused here. Is the OP suggesting that Outer Space = Gargantua? Not making assumptions just asking

If by all the dimensions you mean the main universe too, then that's not confirmed. It can be a smaller dimension too that only exists across Earth, SS and HM dimensionally. We cannot ascertain its full size with only that much information.

I think he's saying it's a small dimension that overlaps the space across hm,ss and the wol.

Which is head canon tbh. He showed no evidence and just made up a theory

 

[AnonymousBlank]

It was the Kyogoku. We are told at the very start that it is because of the Kyogoku that everything is happening. The planets were on a collision course because of the Kyogoku.

SS and WotL were on a collision course (not the planets).

And we see the Kyogoku connecting Earth and SS.

We see the Valley connecting the dimensions, not the planets as the sky above Seireitei is not the planet of SS.

We see the Kyogoku having an entrance at the lake and Earth appearing in SS's sky. But we don't see the Kyogoku normally since it is not in the same dimension. Two planets that are in different dimensions were connected to each other and were moving towards each other along a separate dimension. They don't have to move in their respective dimensions for that.

Fairly certain everyone agrees the planets weren’t moving within their own dimensions.

They would have collided without actually moving in their respective main spaces or without disappearing from view.

Collided how? From what we were shown in Kisuke’s explanation, the realms were going to be pulled into the Dangai which means the planets would have to disappear from view of the main dimensions.

It is possible that they could have completely fallen inside the Kyogoku somehow, or not, but that is just me making a guess since we never got to the point of the actual collision.

I went into much more detail about the same thing here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/sennas-feat-2-ft-bleach-cosmology.128164/page-2#post-4330361

So I read the post and it doesn’t actually answer my question nor what I brought up.

The planets can’t collide into each other if they are in different dimensions which you agree with, citing the Valley as what would allow them to destroy each other along some never seen before/after 4th spatial axis. The issue with your solution of the Valley’s connection to the planets being responsible for the planets being able to collide while in separate dimensions is that it can’t be responsible as the same blasts that destroyed said Valley never affected the planets they were connected to.

You claim that the planets were not being moved out of their 3 normal spatial axis but instead moving along a 4th spatial axis which has no basis in the story and is contradicted by the very fact that the planets still exist within the main dimensions and never left them by your own admission, something that would occur regardless of this magical new spatial axis. Eg. If a square and a circle are on the same 2D plane, the moment you move either along the 3rd dimension, they will no longer be on the same plane as the other 2D shape.

Kisuke explains that the realms will be pulled into the Dangai (something you implied wasn’t the case even though you said it was the case in the OP), see the diagrams Tessai is showing. Each realm is only a 3D construct and the inside of the Dangai is a 3D space which means that the realms can’t be moving along a magical 4th spatial axis inside it as, during the climax, we visibly see the worlds in the Dangai getting moved back into their normal position in response to a 3D explosion.

Not only do your arguments rely on unfounded headcanon additions to the cosmology, they also proceed to contradict each other at every turn.

 

[KingJod23]

So far the disagreeing side is winning and has more arguments than the agreeing side tbh

 

[Swerzye29038]

Pretty sure this has already been addressed in the thread. Why would anyone experience any disturbance? Nobody is assuming the planets are hurtling through normal space.

Addressed where?

 

[KingJod23]

Addressed where?

Nowhere

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I'm honestly going to disagree with the OP regarding the Senna feat.

Mainly because it doesn't make much sense for it to be just the planets colliding otherwise the inhabitants of each world would have noticed their respective planet about to smash into each other and panic. And I'm not talking about the effects of the planets moving, I'm talking about them visually seeing another planet smash into them. If no one on Earth comments on the event then we know, they saw nothing was wrong.

"It was also argued that the color the worlds are shown as proves they cannot be planets in this film, due to what would be earth's color not matching up. This ignores the fact its most likely the colorization from the interior of the dangai causing this color, as shown when senna's explosions go from a green colorization to yellow-reddish one when it pans out to the dangai. Plus, universes don't look like solid planets from afar. They are transparent and have glowing stars, etc. inside them."

Also the argument that the color of the orbs (planets) could just be an effect and are not the representation of the dimensions. I'm going to half to disagree, because if the place their in could effect the color of the worlds then obviously the people in the worlds would have noticed the change in the color of the sky/space they are in. So unless we visually see the actual SS planet and Earth visually about to collide from the prospective of the planets inhabitants that isn't through some monitor screen and the people of Earth actually recognize their about to collide with another world, I'm going to disagree. Verses can use planets as representations of universes as well, not saying that's the intention here, just that it's not unheard of.

However for those who think two planets in different dimensions can't collide with each other, I'm going to disagree with you given there is a verse that had Earth be spatially right next to another planet despite legitimately being in different universes. When the characters started punching wholes through space they ended up on Earth and they state that the planets are dangerously close despite being in different universes. I'm not saying this is the case for Bleach since I dislike using other verses as evidence but I'm saying that it is possible for two planets in different dimensions to collide in fiction.

So far the disagreeing side is winning and has more arguments than the agreeing side tbh

Your opinion on who's winning and has more arguments isn't needed. As more arguments doesn't mean anything unless they are sound. One argument can overrule multiple arguments if they aren't strong enough.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Addressed where?

Second page of this thread by AKM.

If Earth is being pulled then why isn't it hurtling through space?

Because Earth is not moving in that space. Earth and SS are dimensionally separate and they are moving across dimensions. Their movement being facilitated by another dimension called Kyogoku.

For example, in a XYZ plane, if you have a point at the coordinates (3,4,1) and it is moved along the z axis to (3,4,5), did it move in the xy plane? No. As far as the xy plane is concerned, it did not move. It moved only across the z axis. The same logic follows when we talk about moving across dimensions. Earth moving across another pocket dimension =/= Earth moving in the main universe.

Then why isn't the explosion is seen in space? Why didn't Earth get flung into space by that explosion?

Because the explosion only happened in Kyogoku and Dangai. Why would it be visible on Earth? Why would Earth get flung into space when the explosion didn't occur in the main universe? This isn't hard to understand. Alternatively you could also make an argument that the worlds returned to their stable positions by themselves as soon as Kyogoku was completely destroyed, because it's a law of nature that if no force is being applied, things always tend to go to a stable state of existence.

If you still don't understand how dimensions are supposed to work, I don't think I can explain it better atm. Maybe @DontTalkDT can enlighten you on that. But from what I can see, there is a clear lack of understanding on how pocket dimensions work, that is the source of all these weird comments that are mostly coming from new members with only 10-200 comments.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I’ll be posting a more scientific study into how two planets would interact with each other at the distances portrayed in the movie and that will largely influence my opinion on whether or not they’re supposed to be planets in that movie. I’ll also address Toshiro’s statement. However, I haven’t done any number crunching yet lol so idk where I’ll lean yet. I should have the post up early into this coming week, maybe Monday-ish.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

For a second, let us assume two universes were being pulled together and Senna's explosions caused them to reverse their direction. Okay?

For such an explosion that literally changes the course of the universe in mere seconds, the impact would be so great that multiple galaxies would have been destroyed on the spot. Not only that, the entire universe would shake. A side effect of such a process would result in tremors across the universes. That means tremors on every planet, every star, every galaxy, including Earth and SS planet. And not just baby tremors like normal earthquakes. Life-wiping destruction like the one that wiped away the dinosaurs, if not a clear cut destruction of the planet itself.

Does that happen in the movie? No. So your argument arises from an incorrect understanding of the events.

Let's understand the event correctly then.

Your logic only works if that explosion happens inside the universe.
Remember this explosion happens inside Dangai...outside the space-time of either universes (we are already told Dangai is separated space-time fyi, something already accepted).
The only way an explosion can propagate beyond spatio-temporal separation is if it has
1)Dimensional Travel.
2)Feats of destroying the boundry and invade the space-time of universes.
Then we can talk why it did not damage any celestial bodies.
Neither of these things happened.

All the explosions did was push away the universes in Dangai by impacting the outer shell of universes. Imagine a player kicking around soccer ball with all their force...he can't damage it or pierce it...but they can ragdoll it around with kicks just as easily. Not enough energy to damage...but enough to push around.
Same deal with the explosion.
Not really a good analogy...but I hope it works.
Since an universe is a completely closed of system any superficial damage incurred outside its boundries won't be propagated inside the dimension and thus fail to damage any of its contents.

The reason your scenario doesn't work with planets is:-

1) The SS(planet) and HW(planet) are pulled into Dangai towards each other on collision course.
That is they both currently exist in same dimension...that was the plot and point of whole movie afterall.
2) So if explosion happens between planets there's nothing to protect them from said explosion. Some amount of structural Damage is imminent.

Is the Earth and SS planet connected together through the Kyogoku?

Yes, you can literally enter Kyogoku dimension from Earth and we see Earth in SS's sky. The dimension connects the two.

Just because some portal opened on Earth doesn't mean its only limited to Earth.
Both Earth's in either dimensions are focal point of story. So the planets being visible isn't some anti-feat.

Then why is the dimension not visible?

Because it is literally another dimension.

Well Earth was pulled inside said dimension...so its insides should be visible easily.

If Earth is being pulled then why isn't it hurtling through space?

Because Earth is not moving in that space. Earth and SS are dimensionally separate and they are moving across dimensions. Their movement being facilitated by another dimension called Kyogoku.

For example, in a XYZ plane, if you have a point at the coordinates (3,4,1) and it is moved along the z axis to (3,4,5), did it move in the xy plane? No. As far as the xy plane is concerned, it did not move. It moved only across the z axis. The same logic follows when we talk about moving across dimensions. Earth moving across another pocket dimension =/= Earth moving in the main universe.

That's your assumption...do you have proof of that?
Earth doesn't need to move accross its main universe...oki doki.
But how come Earth moving in Dangai is went unnoticed by everyone??
The ridiculously time dilation effects....the rieshi environment....etc. How did that go unnoticed.
Because we know for a fact that SS/HW had been pulled inside said dimension...but incurred no effects of its dense space-time.
Also..explosion shenanigans.

All of this problems aren't experienced by Universe collision version.
Dangai's dense space-time cannot affect another space-time.
Explosion would just be propagated inside Dangai and hurl the SS/HW but fail to reach inside them and affect them.

Then why isn't the explosion is seen in space? Why didn't Earth get flung into space by that explosion?

Because the explosion only happened in Kyogoku and Dangai. Why would it be visible on Earth? Why would Earth get flung into space when the explosion didn't occur in the main universe? This isn't hard to understand. Alternatively you could also make an argument that the worlds returned to their stable positions by themselves as soon as Kyogoku was completely destroyed, because it's a law of nature that if no force is being applied, things always tend to go to a stable state of existence.

Stable equilibrium only applies when there is a restorative force to bring back everything to default energy states/position.
Something that doesn’t exist in that cosmology.
The explosion is the reason they averted crisis of collision...which is a one-time deal. Once they were outside the Dangai and Kogyoku was disabled there was no more threat.

Why don't you enumerate all the instances of context (1)? i.e. examples where the term "Soul Society" could refer to the dimension at large

So far, the only somewhat credible example of that context being used is the novel statement talking about "if the WoTL and SS could be likened to planets"

1) That should alone be enough to debunk the "planet only" arguements. The explanation in context of SS/HW is that they are likened to planets. A similie. Something which wouldn't be need to done if it were actually planets.

Definition of SIMILE

a figure of speech comparing two unlike things that is often introduced by like or as (as in cheeks like roses)… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Full Definition of simile​

: a figure of speech comparing two unlike things that is often introduced by like or as (as in cheeks like roses).

A comparison between 2 unlike objects.
SS/HW in said context is unlike planets...thus used for comparison, only possible with its Universal interpretation.

2) I already explained the Senna's feat which exposes faults with planetary interpretation.

3) I have not read novels..but I have seen some novel scans posted in earlier threads which outright call SS a different Timeline than HW. This would be very helpful.
I think @Reio35 was the one who used to bring that up.

 

[Nierre]

After whatever conclusion comes out of this, this topic should be banned.

 

[Malomtek]

The solo reason we have an Animal Realm/dimension? Is mentioned by Komamura’s grandfather. Hope expanse on it later with the new two wolves kids that Komamura send to Seireitei to study. Hell in Bleach is not the general public believe of it. Even does who commit suicide can go to Soul Society and not Hell. (I have the scans for this if you want those ^^^)

What is any of that supposed to mean?

They exists independently which means their dimensions

The Earth and the planet/"world" Venus also exist separately and independently. This proves absolutely nothing whatsoever, and I think the side in favor of OP understands that they're separate dimensions anyway. The problem is proving that either dimension has any real spatial extent beyond planet-sized, which no one has actually done yet.

 

[Reio35]

What is any of that supposed to mean?



The Earth and the planet/"world" Venus also exist separately and independently. This proves absolutely nothing whatsoever, and I think the side in favor of OP understands that they're separate dimensions anyway. The problem is proving that either dimension has any real spatial extent beyond planet-sized, which no one has actually done yet.

It means separately as in spatially not like your Venus and earth analogy. That doesn't even make sense with the context. Which is way it says you need the senkimon Which is used for moving to other dimensions to get their.

2 planets being separated and independent is pointing out the obvious their would be no need for kubo to say that. Here it's just explaining their 2 different dimensions.

 

[Elizhaa]

I kind of share Ogbunabali's opinions and LordGriffin1000's on the planet points; I am neutral but I want to wait for more knowledgeable members' arguments.

 

[AppleLord]

The problem is proving that either dimension has any real spatial extent beyond planet-sized, which no one has actually done yet.

Soul Society and World of the Living are accepted so far in this thread as their own dimension. Each one has its own sun, moon and stars. All matter in Soul Society is made up of Reishi, and all matter in the World of the Living is made up of Kishi. Kishi cannot enter Soul Society. That means they do not share the same celestial bodies.

 

[AKM sama]

Mainly because it doesn't make much sense for it to be just the planets colliding otherwise the inhabitants of each world would have noticed their respective planet about to smash into each other and panic. And I'm not talking about the effects of the planets moving, I'm talking about them visually seeing another planet smash into them. If no one on Earth comments on the event then we know, they saw nothing was wrong.

because if the place their in could effect the color of the worlds then obviously the people in the worlds would have noticed the change in the color of the sky/space they are in

Normal humans aren't aware of the event because it's not like a real planet like Mars was on a collision course with Earth that can be seen in the sky. You can't see Soul Society in the sky you know? It's in another dimension. Two planets in two different dimensions were getting connected by another dimension. Normal humans aren't even aware about the existence of Soul Society, they can't even see Hollows or Soul Reapers. They don't have the magical ability to see across different dimensions. But you can see the entrance of that dimension in the lake here. And you can see Earth's town appearing in Soul Society's sky here. And everybody in Soul Society knew about it. So if you are going to disagree based on this logic alone, then that'd be wrong because you have misinterpreted the events somewhat.

Your logic only works if that explosion happens inside the universe.
Remember this explosion happens inside Dangai...outside the space-time of either universes (we are already told Dangai is separated space-time fyi, something already accepted).

Exactly. Thank you. That is my point. And it was your logic that you said the planets should fling across space. I just pointed out how your logic contradicts your assumption.

All the explosions did was push away the universes in Dangai by impacting the outer shell of universes. Since an universe is a completely closed of system

You are just making this up. Where is the universe explained like this in Bleach? Universes don't have a hard outer shell. What are you even talking about?

But how come Earth moving in Dangai is went unnoticed by everyone??

It wasn't. Mayuri's monitor caught that. Everyone in the Soul Society knows about it. Kisuke knew. It only went unnoticed by the normal people because they are not aware of Soul Society and all that jazz. They can't even see Soul Reapers and whatnot. They don't have the power to magically see through dimensions.

A similie. Something which wouldn't be need to done if it were actually planets.

I'll go into detail and hope that you understand. Hopefully it will put an end to this particular argument. Let's look at the statement and ask some basic questions:

"If the WotL and SS could be likened to planets and the pipeline that connected them were Dangai, the void of space that surrounded those was called Garganta."

Q: What is the purpose of this statement?
The purpose of this statement is to explain what Garganta is.

Q: What is Garganta being compared to?
Garganta is being compared to the space between/surrounding two planets.

Q: What does that mean?
That Garganta isn't exactly space. But is kind of like the space that exists between two real life planets. For example, if WotL and SS were two planets like Jupiter and Saturn that had outer space surrounding them, then that outer space is like Garganta.

Q: Are WotL and SS planets that are surrounded by a common outer space?
No, WotL and SS are not normal planets like Jupiter and Saturn that have outer space between them. They are planets that reside in different dimensions. And Garganta is what surrounds them.

Q: But what does that mean?
It means that if you want to go from Earth to Soul Society which is in a different dimension, you can't just rip a dimensional hole and automatically reach Soul Society. If you rip a dimensional hole, you'll encounter the Garganta dimension. You'll have to go through Garganta first and rip another dimensional hole to reach Soul Society.

You can't understand a statement by isolating a few words from it. You have to look at the entire context, because context is king. WotL and SS being planets doesn't contradict or break the statement. You just need to look at it from a different perspective. I explained it as best as I could. I'm afraid I don't have a better way to explain this. But if many others have already understood it, then I don't think the problem is from my end. Maybe you're having difficulty visualizing it from another angle.

 

[YukaSama4]

You can't understand a statement by isolating a few words from it. You have to look at the entire context, because context is king.

Context is the king, and you clearly don't understand the context of this statement because Tokinada wasn't trying to explain what is Garganta, but rather what is Kyogoku.
“Ugh. I’m so sorry, Lord Tokinada.”
With Hikone slinking like a beaten dog in front of her, Aura put on an
inscrutable smile as she spoke to Tokinada. “But this is a curious place.”
“You’ve only been to this Kyogoku three times, isn’t that right?”
A Kyogoku. If the world of the living and the Soul Society could be
likened to planets and the pipeline that connected them were Dangai, the
void of space that surrounded those was called Garganta. Within that
Garganta spaces occasionally floated up like bubbles that were filled with
just enough reishi for humans and Soul Reapers to eke by in.
“Yes, it would be very interesting to know why places like this form in
the Garganta in the first place.”
“One theory has it that they form from what were once pitiable Konpaku
whose souls lost their memories entirely and failed to enter the cycle of
death and rebirth. If a Hollow’s final resting place is the desert of Hueco
Mundo, then this is a simulated place created by humans who escaped from
both Konso and the Hollows, and the souls of Soul Reapers and Rukongai
residents who strayed from the flow of the cycle of reincarnation.”

Q: What is the purpose of this statement?
The purpose of this statement is to explain what Garganta Kyogoku is.

Q: What is Garganta being compared to?
Garganta is being compared to the space that surrounds planets.

Q: What are SS and WoTL compared to?
They are compared to normal planets in space.

Q: What does that mean?
That Garganta isn't exactly an outer space, and SS and WoTL arent planets, it's a clear simile that was used to make Aura understand what is Kyogoku.

Q: Are WotL and SS planets that are surrounded by a common outer space?
No, WotL and SS are not normal planets like Jupiter and Saturn that have outer space between them. They are planets that reside in different dimensions. And Garganta is what surrounds them.

Actually, when we use SS and WoTL to refer to planets, we can see that those planets are surrounded by a common outer space, what AKM is trying to say is that those planets are surrounded by the Garganta but we can't see it, while we all know that this is a pure headcanon from him that wasn't even mentioned in the whole story, as its wrong for many reasons.
1) Garganta isn't an invisible thing and it's never been stated, it's a void of Reishi and Reishi only, if it's invisible to soul reapers then SS should be invisible too to them, Garganta and SS are made by the same matter, and both are spiritual worlds, but SS dimension exists inside Garganta, and its shown as a black void that surrounds those dimensions, not a parallel dimension like RoSaT (which is AKM false interpretation)


2) Stars arent shown in Garganta, meaning they exist inside SS and WoTL dimensions.

3) Relativity was discovered in WoTL science, which is a clear implication that it's designed as our universe.


Q: But what does that mean?
It means SS and WoTL aren't planets, but if we were to liken them to planets, Garganta will be the outer space because it does work like that for the entire dimensions.

Conclusion:
You can't understand a statement by using pure headcanon, you should look at the explanation that the manga provides for the cosmology and then analyze, not creating a headcanon then trying to force that headcanon on the manga.

Again, I'm not trying to be rude here, but if you don't wanna go and learn what are the rhetorical device, and conditional statements thats fine but don't come here and try to force your baseless interpretation.

Also, a question, if that statement isn't a Simile or if clause statement, please enlighten us on which English style is used there.

Links to help:

4 Types of Conditional Sentences

There are four types of conditional sentences. It’s important to use the correct structure for each of these different types, because…

www.grammarly.com

"Conditional sentences are statements discussing known factors or hypothetical situations and their consequences. Complete conditional sentences contain a conditional clause (often referred to as the if-clause) and the consequence."

Hypothetically, SS and WoTL are planets, Garganta will be an outer space as a consequence, if you claim that Garganta isn't outer space, then SS and WoTL arent planets, that's how you understand conditional statements.

Definition of SIMILE

a figure of speech comparing two unlike things that is often introduced by like or as (as in cheeks like roses)… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

"Full Definition of simile: a figure of speech comparing two unlike things that is often introduced by like or as (as in cheeks like roses)"
SS, WoTL are unlike planets.

Your interpretation contradicts the language, contradicts the cannon material, get it out of here, please.

 

[AKM sama]

Context of the statement is still explaining Garganta. Context of the entire paragraph is explaining Kyogoku. You're splitting hair at this point.

1) That is, sadly, you not understanding how dimensions work. Garganta is a dimension with its own space and time. It overlaps with Earth. You can literally rip apart the dimensional wall and you'll see Garganta existing. Just like how RoSaT is another planet-sized dimension with its own space-time that exists alongside Earth, and can be accessed by ripping the dimensional walls, but you don't see RoSaT normally, unless you have some magical power that allows you to see parallelly existing dimensions. I am not sure why this is so hard for you to get.

Garganta. Existing. As. A. Separate. Dimension. Won't. Obstruct. You. From. Seeing. Stars.

2) True. Never denied it. Stars don't exist in Garganta. They exist in the universe and in the dimension where Soul Society is.

3) Earth's science. Yes, WotL is based on Earth.

Don't be rude just because it is difficult for you to understand something. Maybe, instead of getting angry, actually try to see it from my point of view so that you understand what I am saying.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Normal humans aren't aware of the event because it's not like a real planet like Mars was on a collision course with Earth that can be seen in the sky. You can't see Soul Society in the sky you know? It's in another dimension. Two planets in two different dimensions were getting connected by another dimension. Normal humans aren't even aware about the existence of Soul Society, they can't even see Hollows or Soul Reapers. They don't have the magical ability to see across different dimensions.

That doesn't mean the effects of said events are intangible/invisible.
Humans regularly experience physical effects of all the ruckus caused by Hollows/Soul Reapers. We are shown that in very first episodes itself. Its always mistaken for some natural disaster or accident which cannot be explained.
The Astral entities do have a tangible physical effect on human world.

If said explosion impacted the planets then how come they remain undamaged??

Exactly. Thank you. That is my point. And it was your logic that you said the planets should fling across space. I just pointed out how your logic contradicts your assumption.

Uuhhhh.
I pretty sure I explicitly said that they move inside the space of Dangai when they got pulled inside it.
I never said they needed to move inside their regular realms.
Maybe someone else said it and you mistaked it for me.

You are just making this up. Where is the universe explained like this in Bleach? Universes don't have a hard outer shell. What are you even talking about?

Then you missed the point completely.
When I mean ""shell"" I mean the seperation of space-time of either realms and Dangai.
Its a metaphorical shell in my explanation.
An explosion doesn't just willy nilly travel from one space-time to other unless you can prove that they do.
Thus with Universal Interpretation we never have to suffer with the dilemma of why explosion doesn't affect planets or even the universe.

It wasn't. Mayuri's monitor caught that. Everyone in the Soul Society knows about it. Kisuke knew. It only went unnoticed by the normal people because they are not aware of Soul Society and all that jazz. They can't even see Soul Reapers and whatnot. They don't have the power to magically see through dimensions.

Soul Society is fine...they have devices inside the Dangai to track all the shenanigans.

Humans don't need to see the events...they literally can't see astral stuff. I already acknowledged that. But they are still vulnerable to effects of said events.
Why did they not suffer trauma of all these dimensional shenanigans and explosions?

Q: What is the purpose of this statement?
The purpose of this statement is to explain what Garganta is.

Okay.

Q: What is Garganta being compared to?
Garganta is being compared to the space between/surrounding two planets.

Okay. So since the comparison is between two "unlike" elements. Garganta in actuality unlike space, ergo it isn't a space.

Q: What does that mean?
That Garganta isn't exactly space. But is kind of like the space that exists between two real life planets. For example, if WotL and SS were two planets like Jupiter and Saturn that had outer space surrounding them, then that outer space is like Garganta.

Its nothing like space at all. Its just an analogical comparison.

Q: Are WotL and SS planets that are surrounded by a common outer space?
No, WotL and SS are not normal planets like Jupiter and Saturn that have outer space between them. They are planets that reside in different dimensions. And Garganta is what surrounds them.

And these different dimensions are called Soul Society and Human/Mortal World etc respectively.
Garganta sorrounds these realms.
It doesn't overlap at all...we never had such evidence. So unless you can prove it, your point doesn't hold.

Q: But what does that mean?
It means that if you want to go from Earth to Soul Society which is in a different dimension, you can't just rip a dimensional hole and automatically reach Soul Society. If you rip a dimensional hole, you'll encounter the Garganta dimension. You'll have to go through Garganta first and rip another dimensional hole to reach Soul Society.

Everyone already knows that.
When you want to go from Soul Society(Planet) inside Soul Society(Realm) to Earth inside Human Realm or vice versa...you need to go through Garganta.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

1) That is, sadly, you not understanding how dimensions work. Garganta is a dimension with its own space and time. It overlaps with Earth. You can literally rip apart the dimensional wall and you'll see Garganta existing. Just like how RoSaT is another dimension with its own space-time that exists alongside Earth, and can be accessed by ripping the dimensional walls, but you don't see RoSaT normally, unless you have some magical power that allows you to see parallelly existing dimensions. I am not s

Do you have definitive proof of this "overlapping"??
Just because you rip open a portal to a dimension doesn't mean it overlaps with you.

Also that RoSaT example is not a good example its a planetary sized pocket dimension inside Kami's lookout.
Something quite common in fiction.
Like Mechicabura from DBH or Saviour from DMC.
They don't overlap. They just contain the said realms inside themselves in compactified forms.

If you want better example...use Yggdrasil...which has elaborate explanation of its existence...especially overlapling.

 

[YukaSama4]

1) That is, sadly, you not understanding how dimensions work. Garganta is a dimension with its own space and time. It overlaps with Earth. You can literally rip apart the dimensional wall and you'll see Garganta existing. Just like how RoSaT is another dimension with its own space-time that exists alongside Earth, and can be accessed by ripping the dimensional walls, but you don't see RoSaT normally, unless you have some magical power that allows you to see parallelly existing dimensions.

Sadly for you, Yoruichi says that Garganta exists as the black void that surrounds dimension, it doesn't exist as RoSaT, i.e parallel dimension to Earth.
Show me when it's stated that RoSaT is described as a void that contains the Earth if it's not then for the 44254th time stop bringing that irrelevant example to support your argument, Yoruichi’s explanation is more credible than your baseless interpretation, this point is null.

2) True. Never denied it. Stars don't exist in Garganta. They exist in the universe and in the dimension where Soul Society is.

They exist in the SS dimension and WoTL dimension, that's what the scan proves, again, nothing in the story supports your interpretation.

3) Earth's science. Yes, WotL is based on Earth.

Oh, so you are saying that our universe is also our Earth? Because that's not what existence of relativity means, sigh, it seems I'm going to explain physics now.

Don't be rude just because it is difficult for you to understand something.

Don't create a headcanon because it's difficult for you to understand both language and manga, I'm not being rude at all, also you haven't addressed my question:

Also, a question, if that statement isn't a Simile or if clause statement, please enlighten us on which English style is used there.

I'm excited to see the new grammar rule that you are going to invent for this statement.

 

[AKM sama]

Humans regularly experience physical effects of all the ruckus caused by Hollows/Soul Reapers. We are shown that in very first episodes itself. Its always mistaken for some natural disaster or accident which cannot be explained.

Why did they not suffer trauma of all these dimensional shenanigans and explosions?

Difference here is that hollows actually physically attack them on their planet in their dimension. The explosions are not happening on Earth or SS. They are happening in Dangai. Which is disconnected from Earth by time and space. A separate pocket dimension.

And these different dimensions are called Soul Society and Human/Mortal World etc respectively.

I mean, this is the point of the thread. You just need to provide an instance where they use the terms SS and WotL to refer to dimensions. There are several instances where they refer to planets only. Kisuke blatantly refers to SS as planet which is in another dimension, while not naming the dimension anything. And even then, if we take it on a case-by-case basis, then also it doesn't conclusively imply that.

 

[AKM sama]

Just because you rip open a portal

Is there proof of it being a portal?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Guys slow down...I am thoroughly confused who replied to who.
Gimme some time.

 

[YukaSama4]

Is there proof of it being a portal?

There is proof that Garganta exists as a black void the surrounds SS and WoTL, it exists there, it doesn't exist as a parallel dimension for them, the burden of proof is on you to prove that it's stated to be like that because the opposite is stated by Kisuke and Yoruichi, Tokinada said they aren't planets, you are the one who has to bring a statement that is at least as clear as Tokinada’s statement if you wanna say that they are planets.
Still waiting for an answer to my easy question

 

[AKM sama]

Also that RoSaT example is not a good example its a planetary sized pocket dimension inside Kami's lookout.
Something quite common in fiction.
Like Mechicabura from DBH or Saviour from DMC.
They don't overlap. They just contain the said realms inside themselves in compactified forms.

Also this is false. RoSaT doesn't exist inside the room. Destruction of the room doesn't destroy RoSaT. It is a pocket dimension that exists parallel to Earth. Room is just an entrance. Dimensions overlapping together is something that is very common in fiction.

 

[PrinceofPein]

stuffs.

How about you start reading to you know understand then give a reply instead of reading to give a reply, i will give you an instance of you reading to give a reply and not understand what he is saying

Q: Are WotL and SS planets that are surrounded by a common outer space?
No, WotL and SS are not normal planets like Jupiter and Saturn that have outer space between them. They are planets that reside in different dimensions. And Garganta is what surrounds them.

Actually, when we use SS and WoTL to refer to planets, we can see that those planets are surrounded by a common outer space, what AKM is trying to say is that those planets are surrounded by the Garganta but we can't see it, while we all know that this is a pure headcanon from him that wasn't even mentioned in the whole story, as its wrong for many reasons.
1) Garganta isn't an invisible thing and it's never been stated, it's a void of Reishi and Reishi only, if it's invisible to soul reapers then SS should be invisible too to them, Garganta and SS are made by the same matter, and both are spiritual worlds, but SS dimension exists inside Garganta, and its shown as a black void that surrounds those dimensions, not a parallel dimension like RoSaT (which is AKM false interpretation)

He never said all what you are accusing him of saying, he is saying they reside in a different dimension but with garganta as the space between the dimensions. he never said the planets are surrounded by garganta he said the dimensions and he never said it in any of his previous post. hence this statement "They are planets that reside in different dimensions and garganta is what surrounds them"
so it is not "they are planets and garganta which not everyone can see is what surrounds them" which would be what you are accusing him of saying, all your post are just reading to reply cause well "muah it will downgrade my fav series" i can give other instances of you not addressing his point or taking them out of context like i showed above but frankly it is not worth it as it does not matter you did not address anything in the OP.

and this is about Senna feat not SK and yhwach they shill have their feat, this is about the 3B or 3C senna feat.

and going off your statement that the WotL follows normal science so we should use normal science for it lol bruhh dont even bring that here, or what do you think will happen if the earth started moving at mftl+ speed and then suddenly stooped and started moving in the opposite direction? use the theory of relativity if you want i will give you a reply, if the entire universe suddenly started moving in a direction (i am not talking about the universe expansion as i am sure you wont get that and you will try to reply not understand) i am saying the current universe should pick up it speed at mftl+, as the dimensions that are uinversal size have to be going that fast to even meet within a few hours, your theory of relativity that wotl follows states one thing total annihilation of the universe aside the fact that it is not possible too cause you know nothing is faster than light as per the entire physics thing that WotL follows, so out with your follows science it is fiction they can say whatever they want.

while i did not want to reply to this thread personally before cause well i also saw bleach and i know nothing concrete in the series can debunk the OP at most you will get possibly, so i dont want to bother i really just had to reply to you as you really did not read his post to understand what he was saying or what he was replying to you only took his words out of context right after saying context is king

This thread is about you guys bring up where SS and WotL was referred to as dimension when used

 

[AKM sama]

Just because you rip open a portal to a dimension doesn't mean it overlaps with you.

Here's the proof that you don't actually open a portal to another dimension. You can just rip open the dimensional walls and there it is, the garganta. Like, this is the most blatant proof that Garganta dimension overlaps with Earth. You don't need anything else.

 

[YukaSama4]

How about you start reading to you know understand then give a reply instead of reading to give a reply, i will give you an instance of you reading to give a reply and not understand what he is saying

How about I give you a lesson on how using a strawman won't help you with me, instead of coming and repeating the same false interpretation that contradicts the manga.

He never said all what you are accusing him of saying, he is saying they reside in a different dimension but with garganta as the space between the dimensions. he never said the planets are surrounded by garganta he said the dimensions and he never said it in any of his previous post. hence this statement "They are planets that reside in different dimensions and garganta is what surrounds them"

Actually, he is saying that Garganta exists as RoSaT, it's not my problem if you understand neither me nor him, and that interpretation contradicts Yoruichi when she explained the cosmology using a panel that Kisuke who is more credible than your baseless headcanon.
He says that Garganta surrounds the planets, I haven't accused him of anything, and thus my arguments still stand.

all your post are just reading to reply cause well "muah it will downgrade my fav series" i can give other instances of you not addressing his point or taking them out of context like i showed above but frankly it is not worth it as it does not matter you did not address anything in the OP

Funny how you never provided a statement from the manga that supports AKM’s interpretation and went on using ad-hominem, while my arguments are clear cut supported by sources from the manga, I don't blame you tho, AKM failed to bring a piece of evidence as well.

and this is about Senna feat not SK and yhwach they shill have their feat, this is about the 3B or 3C senna feat.

Amazing strawman there, I never mentioned Yhwach nor SK in this entire thread, that's what happens when you don't know what you are talking about, I was using the explanation of the cosmology from TYBW arc, are you saying that the manga has a different cosmology than the movie? what an amazing understanding of the verse.

and going off your statement that the WotL follows normal science so we should use normal science for it lol bruhh dont even bring that here, or what do you think will happen if the earth started moving at mftl+ speed and then suddenly stooped and started moving in the opposite direction?

I never said that only the Earth was moving, stop accusing me of shit that I never spoke.

(i am not talking about the universe expansion as i am sure you wont get that and you will try to reply not understand)

nobody cares about what you think about me.

i am saying the current universe should pick up it speed at mftl+, as the dimensions that are uinversal size have to be going that fast to even meet within a few hours, your theory of relativity that wotl follows states one thing total annihilation of the universe aside the fact that it is not possible too cause you know nothing is faster than light as per the entire physics thing that WotL follows, so out with your follows science it is fiction they can say whatever they want.

I'm saying that Relativity applies to WoTL universe rules, I never said anything about SS or Senna’s feat, WoTL is based on our universe, any other thing in the verse that happens doesn't mean shit because its:

fiction

while i did not want to reply to this thread personally before cause well i also saw bleach and i know nothing concrete in the series can debunk the OP at most you will get possibly, so i dont want to bother i really just had to reply to you as you really did not read his post to understand what he was saying or what he was replying to

Funny how neither you nor AKM provided a piece of evidence for your claims, all you say is that X is like this, Y is like that, and let me tell you that nobody cares about opinions if said opinions contradict the manga,

you only took his words out of context right after saying context is king

I quoted that to approve on his statement that context is the king, was I wrong with that? Then I proceeded to debunk his claims.

but I have to say this tho, amazing collection of fallacies have been brought up by you, you did impress me