See, we told you we were working on it! (Naruto Revision Part 1: Scaling)

[BlastX]

Display of power can mean more than one thing.

He's a veteran ninja that's travelled the world and done hundreds of missions. And I'm PRETTY sure he would know the fact that The Five Kage exist and have that in mind when making that statement. Besides, even if he's never met them in person, they're the literal leaders of the ninja world. He would know their reputation and stories of their power (which if anything could exaggerate beyond what they actually are as hype stories tend to do).

Complexity of technique is what determines rank.

He didn't say Naruto could surpass Minato in terms of jutsu, he said he could surpass him in general. Anyways even if we take this statement as Naruto being able to surpass him in terms of jutsu, there are many other people who have made techniques just as complex if not moreso than the Rasengan, so why would Kakashi say Naruto is the ONLY one who can surpass him?

Display: "a performance, show, or event intended for public entertainment." Having a display on par with Minato could just mean the scale of his jutsu is similar.

Weren't you just arguing with me about upgrading Minato a second ago? I mean, still appreciated, but ya know

But Minato was talking about PA Naruto who was "supposed" to have surpassed Minato in all physicals

I'm talking about Kakuzu Fight Rasenshuriken.

 

[LordTracer]

Display: "a performance, show, or event intended for public entertainment." Having a display on par with Minato could just mean the scale of his jutsu is similar

Except it’s not “a display on par with Minato,” it’s a “display of power that rivals the Fourth Hokage.” That is about as blatant as you can get.

 

[KingTempest]

Complexity of technique is what determines rank.

Says who?

The databook calls it degree of difficulty, not complexity.

He didn't say Naruto could surpass Minato in terms of jutsu, he said he could surpass him in general. Anyways even if we take this statement as Naruto being able to surpass him in terms of jutsu, there are many other people who have made techniques just as complex if not moreso than the Rasengan, so why would Kakashi say Naruto is the ONLY one who can surpass him?

He didn't say in general, and they were talking about the jutsu.

And nobody's talking about the rasengan, we're talking about the rasenshuriken, which not many people have accomplished.

Weren't you just arguing with me about upgrading Minato a second ago? I mean, still appreciated, but ya know

I don't pick sides on who I wanna upgrade, I just see what I personally want implemented and add it along.

I can disagree with a Sasuke upgrade then give him 500 abilities.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Really it’s moreso Minato > Orochimaru ≈ Jiraiya > Old Hiruzen

Naruto doesn’t really know how strong Minato is, so that first thing isn’t exactly a point against it.

Also if you look at Minato’s previous statements, the context is more “I sealed the Kyuubi inside you so you would have extraordinary power to fight Tobi.” Hell, Minato’s first sentence in that page is “I sealed half of the Nine-Tails’ chakra inside you…” He’s not saying “you need more strength to fight him.”

I’m gonna stop you right there. We are scaling his Kaiten’s durability AND ONLY HIS KAITEN’S DURABILITY to the Juubi. Literally the only feat it has is blocking a Juubi hand. Neji himself does not scale, only this specific defensive technique.

In the same page, Madara effortlessly yeets his arm off, aka, a blatant anti-feat. Come on now.

No.

He said Jiraiya.

It's definitely implication, and it goes along with the statements I showed saying Naruto would need the Kyuubi's chakra to beat Obito.

Not even sure about that one. Seems like an outlier given some random spikes blew past the rotation and struck Neji's headband off.

TSOs turn all to dust in an instant that don't have Six Paths senjutsu.

So… no concrete evidence that he’s actually aware of what they’re capable of. You being “pretty sure” is not a valid argument, my guy.

Ok, I'll fix that. "He knows the Five Kage exist." Unless ur gonna argue Kakashi is a cave dweller?

I'm talking about Kakuzu Fight Rasenshuriken.

Yeah but PA Naruto scaling above him still messes up the scaling.

Except it’s not “a display on par with Minato,” it’s a “display of power that rivals the Fourth Hokage.” That is about as blatant as you can get.

A display of power means Destructive Capacity, not Attack Potency.

These are similar displays of power.

They obviously don't have the same AP.

Says who?

The databook calls it degree of difficulty, not complexity.


He didn't say in general, and they were talking about the jutsu.

And nobody's talking about the rasengan, we're talking about the rasenshuriken, which not many people have accomplished.

I don't pick sides on who I wanna upgrade, I just see what I personally want implemented and add it along.

I can disagree with a Sasuke upgrade then give him 500 abilities.

That's what I meant. The more complex it is, the more difficult it is to learn.

They are talking about the Rasengan, because the Rasengan is Minato's level of jutsu creation, and the context is Naruto being able to surpass Minato. So anything beyond Rasengan in complexity would be surpassing him using your argument, and there are jutsu more complex but Kakashi doesn't think they surpassed Minato.

Yeah but you first argued against Minato being above 7-B then are approving it, so not rlly the same.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Also, y'all are ignoring the WoG statement about Minato being the strongest dead shinobi from the interview.

 

[KingTempest]

Really it’s moreso Minato > Orochimaru ≈ Jiraiya > Old Hiruzen

Aight

Naruto doesn’t really know how strong Minato is, so that first thing isn’t exactly a point against it.

The first point is for Base Jiraiya who's below Minato.

Also if you look at Minato’s previous statements, the context is more “I sealed the Kyuubi inside you so you would have extraordinary power to fight Tobi.” Hell, Minato’s first sentence in that page is “I sealed half of the Nine-Tails’ chakra inside you…” He’s not saying “you need more strength to fight him.”

That's fair.

Also, take this into consideration.

"He's so strong even the fourth hokage struggled against him!"
Why is that a feat if Base Naruto is superior to Minato, and Sage Mode, Rasenshuriken, and Sage Mode Rasenshuriken are supposed to be so far above his alley?

I’m gonna stop you right there. We are scaling his Kaiten’s durability AND ONLY HIS KAITEN’S DURABILITY to the Juubi. Literally the only feat it has is blocking a Juubi hand. Neji himself does not scale, only this specific defensive technique.

But isn't chakra control a thing which means Neji should scale to the juubi since he can use that chakra in other places?

In the same page, Madara effortlessly yeets his arm off, aka, a blatant anti-feat. Come on now.

That's a truthseeking orb with ridiculous hax activated. That's not an antifeat.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Let me give you context

I guarantee you they are not talking about AP.

Ha, funny. The statements of Naruto and/or RS surpassing Minato is about the chakra nature being applied to the Rasengan, and not necessarily surpassing his strength. Cool.

 

[M3X_2.0]

When i saw this before hand, like weeks ago, I thought it was weird. A comparasion between a technique and a character? Nah, it has context. There is no way they are comparing a technique to a character this is the proof.

Minato created Rasengan. Rasengan, in a sense, is incomplete, because Minato couldnt add the nature change form into it. Naruto could, thus, surpassing Minato.

Eh, I completely disagree with using these statements to put BoS Naruto > One of the most skilled Hokage. It's a no no for me. I know that Minato lack some feats, but what's being done here is just being dishonest with the character.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

When i saw this before hand, like weeks ago, I thought it was weird. A comparasion between a technique and a character? Nah, it has context. There is no way they are comparing a technique to a character this is the proof.

Minato created Rasengan. Rasengan, in a sense, is incomplete, because Minato couldnt add the nature change form into it. Naruto could, thus, surpassing Minato.

Eh, I completely disagree with using these statements to put BoS Naruto > One of the most skilled Hokage. It's a no no for me. I know that Minato lack some feats, but what's being done here is just being dishonest with the character.

Tbh I can see why. If it was just the Kakashi statement maybe more people would be willing to accept High 7-A or High 7-A+ Minato, but a display of power rivalling the Fourth Hokage does seem pretty clear cut at face value. Of course, you may have seen me arguing about why that's not as clear cut as it seems.

 

[LordTracer]

The first point is for Base Jiraiya who's below Minato.

It’s literally just Naruto being excited about reaching Jiraiya’s level of strength. That doesn’t say anything about how strong he actually is post-training.

Also, take this into consideration.

"He's so strong even the fourth hokage struggled against him!"
Why is that a feat if Base Naruto is superior to Minato, and Sage Mode, Rasenshuriken, and Sage Mode Rasenshuriken are supposed to be so far above his alley?

You realize that Naruto like, isn’t that much stronger than Minato, right? You’re making it seem like we’re putting him leaps and bounds ahead.

Also he’s saying this to Kakashi and Yamato to give them an idea of how strong Tobi is. That also doesn’t really say anything about Naruto himself.

But isn't chakra control a thing which means Neji should scale to the juubi since he can use that chakra in other places?

Please show me where Neji ever uses the same level of chakra as Kaiten in literally anything else

That's a truthseeking orb with ridiculous hax activated. That's not an antifeat.

Uncontrolled Juubito, who’s much weaker than Juubidara, easily yeets KCM2 Minato, who’s much stronger than Sage Minato, with a kick. And that’s aside from KCM2 Minato (along with everyone else) was portrayed as being weaker than Juubito (Minato even described him as having dreamlike power), who is again, weaker than Juubidara.

So yes, there are in fact, anti-feats against Sage Minato scaling to Juubidara.

 

[LordTracer]

Eh, I completely disagree with using these statements to put BoS Naruto > One of the most skilled Hokage. It's a no no for me. I know that Minato lack some feats, but what's being done here is just being dishonest with the character.

Nobody is putting BoS Naruto above Minato, my guy. BoS Naruto isn’t even above Kakashi.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

It’s literally just Naruto being excited about reaching Jiraiya’s level of strength. That doesn’t say anything about how strong he actually is post-training.

You realize that Naruto like, isn’t that much stronger than Minato, right? You’re making it seem like we’re putting him leaps and bounds ahead.

Also he’s saying this to Kakashi and Yamato to give them an idea of how strong Tobi is. That also doesn’t really say anything about Naruto himself.

Please show me where Neji ever uses the same level of chakra as Kaiten in literally anything else

Uncontrolled Juubito, who’s much weaker than Juubidara, easily yeets KCM2 Minato, who’s much stronger than Sage Minato, with a kick. And that’s aside from KCM2 Minato (along with everyone else) was portrayed as being weaker than Juubito (Minato even described him as having dreamlike power), who is again, weaker than Juubidara.

So yes, there are in fact, anti-feats against Sage Minato scaling to Juubidara.

His statement clearly implies he's weaker than Jiraiya though. And his training was mostly focused on sage training, not training his base.

He would be with Sage Mode though, considering Minato never fights in SM.

His statement is hyping Obito BECAUSE Minato struggled with him. That means he sees Minato level as really impressive.

64 palms prolly

Can you prove KCM2 Minato is stronger than SM Minato? KCM is a linear power up, while SM is exponential, they can't be compared like that. Besides, that was when Minato had his mental nerf (I believe you know about that already?).

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Nobody is putting BoS Naruto above Minato, my guy. BoS Naruto isn’t even above Kakashi.

You know what he means.

 

[LordTracer]

Sparkle, can you stop butting in to my discussion with Tempest for half a second lmao.

 

[BlastX]

His statement clearly implies he's weaker than Jiraiya though. And his training was mostly focused on sage training, not training his base.

He would be with Sage Mode though, considering Minato never fights in SM.

His statement is hyping Obito BECAUSE Minato struggled with him. That means he sees Minato level as really impressive.

64 palms prolly

Can you prove KCM2 Minato is stronger than SM Minato? KCM is a linear power up, while SM is exponential, they can't be compared like that. Besides, that was when Minato had his mental nerf (I believe you know about that already?).

Mate, KCM2 Naruto is obviously stronger than SM Naruto who's SM is better than Minato's, KCM2 should give Minato the same boost given he has his own half of Kurama.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Sparkle, can you stop butting in to my discussion with Tempest for half a second lmao.

I guess so, just givin' my input. I see wrong, I type.

Mate, KCM2 Naruto is obviously stronger than SM Naruto who's SM is better than Minato's, KCM2 should give Minato the same boost given he has his own half of Kurama.

..."KCM is a linear power up, while SM is exponential, they can't be compared like that."

 

[KingTempest]

It’s literally just Naruto being excited about reaching Jiraiya’s level of strength. That doesn’t say anything about how strong he actually is post-training.

He should already be there with his rasenshuriken, so it shouldn't be exciting.

. You realize that Naruto like, isn’t that much stronger than Minato, right? You’re making it seem like we’re putting him leaps and bounds ahead.

Sage Mode Naruto would be ridiculously superior to Minato, via the many statements of the level of the amp.

Also he’s saying this to Kakashi and Yamato to give them an idea of how strong Tobi is. That also doesn’t really say anything about Naruto himself.

Base Naruto as of now is supposed to be stronger than both of them.
If he's trying to say how strong Tobi is by technically saying "he's weaker than me", than that's... counterproductive.

Please show me where Neji ever uses the same level of chakra as Kaiten in literally anything else

Meh, nvm then

Uncontrolled Juubito, who’s much weaker than Juubidara, easily yeets KCM2 Minato, who’s much stronger than Sage Minato, with a kick. And that’s aside from KCM2 Minato (along with everyone else) was portrayed as being weaker than Juubito (Minato even described him as having dreamlike power), who is again, weaker than Juubidara.

Naruto got kicked too and we see him perfectly fine on the next page.

And what makes KCM2 Minato > Sage Mode Minato?
If you're referring to the "I'm stronger than when I fought Pain" that isn't comparing modes, it's comparing versions of characters.

I don't even wanna dwell on the point of "oh maybe juubi jins are physically asstastic" cause that'll get us nowhere, just saying.
You can scale 1 technique to a juubi, you can scale another's enhanced durability around it too.

And don't ignore context with "dreamlike power". It talks about orbs that turn people to dust, the speed of his offense and defense, and his invulnerability to ninjutsu. Stated on the same page. If that was the case then he would've mentioned it beforehand. Nothing about physical strength.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

He should already be there with his rasenshuriken, so it shouldn't be exciting.

Sage Mode Naruto would be ridiculously superior to Minato, via the many statements of the level of the amp.

Base Naruto as of now is supposed to be stronger than both of them.
If he's trying to say how strong Tobi is by technically saying "he's weaker than me", than that's... counterproductive.

Meh, nvm then

Naruto got kicked too and we see him perfectly fine on the next page.

And what makes KCM2 Minato > Sage Mode Minato?
If you're referring to the "I'm stronger than when I fought Pain" that isn't comparing modes, it's comparing versions of characters.

I don't even wanna dwell on the point of "oh maybe juubi jins are physically asstastic" cause that'll get us nowhere, just saying.
You can scale 1 technique to a juubi, you can scale another's enhanced durability around it too.

And don't ignore context with "dreamlike power". It talks about orbs that turn people to dust, the speed of his offense and defense, and his invulnerability to ninjutsu. Stated on the same page. If that was the case then he would've mentioned it beforehand. Nothing about physical strength.

The **** does "asstastic" mean?

 

[KingTempest]

The **** does "asstastic" mean?

Fantastic, but ass

 

[MinatoSparkle]

He should already be there with his rasenshuriken, so it shouldn't be exciting.

Sage Mode Naruto would be ridiculously superior to Minato, via the many statements of the level of the amp.

Base Naruto as of now is supposed to be stronger than both of them.
If he's trying to say how strong Tobi is by technically saying "he's weaker than me", than that's... counterproductive.

Meh, nvm then

Naruto got kicked too and we see him perfectly fine on the next page.

And what makes KCM2 Minato > Sage Mode Minato?
If you're referring to the "I'm stronger than when I fought Pain" that isn't comparing modes, it's comparing versions of characters.

I don't even wanna dwell on the point of "oh maybe juubi jins are physically asstastic" cause that'll get us nowhere, just saying.
You can scale 1 technique to a juubi, you can scale another's enhanced durability around it too.

And don't ignore context with "dreamlike power". It talks about orbs that turn people to dust, the speed of his offense and defense, and his invulnerability to ninjutsu. Stated on the same page. If that was the case then he would've mentioned it beforehand. Nothing about physical strength.

damn near repeated me at some points lol

(...apparently I shouldn't butt in but just wanted to add the small point that it was actually both KCM Minato and his clone that were kicked)

 

[KingTempest]

Oh shit that's a clone?

 

[LordTracer]

He should already be there with his rasenshuriken, so it shouldn't be exciting.

You mean that technique that he hadn’t mastered yet and couldn’t use without dealing damage to himself? Not exactly a fair point, mate.

Sage Mode Naruto would be ridiculously superior to Minato, via the many statements of the level of the amp.

Didn’t you make a whole thread about removing the multiplier, with one of your points being people in base keeping up with people they previously fought in Sage Mode

Base Naruto as of now is supposed to be stronger than both of them.
If he's trying to say how strong Tobi is by technically saying "he's weaker than me", than that's... counterproductive.

He’s conveying how much of a threat Tobi is to Kakashi and Yamato by informing them that Minato struggled against him. Again, nothing there is referring to Naruto himself. Also if you want to be technical, Minato didn’t struggle against Tobi because of AP reasons, it was because of Tobi’s hax.

Naruto got kicked too and we see him perfectly fine on the next page.

And what makes KCM2 Minato > Sage Mode Minato?
If you're referring to the "I'm stronger than when I fought Pain" that isn't comparing modes, it's comparing versions of characters.

Alright, Minato’s whole ass Kurama Avatar, even while doing a combined jutsu with BSM Naruto, was countered and sent flying after clashing with Juubito.

Would you now like to argue that Sage Minato can take hits from someone far stronger than someone that can clash with two Kurama Avatars?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Oh shit that's a clone?

Quite sure. He summoned his original right next to him

And they were still together the next page

And uh...well, most importantly, Naruto was literally in the air when Juubito kicked the Minatos away.

 

[KingTempest]

You mean that technique that he hadn’f mastered yet and couldn’t use without dealing damage to himself? Not exactly a fair point, mate.

Didn't even deal AP damage, it was the cellular stuff that was an issue.

The mastered yet point is fair to an extent

Didn’t you make a whole thread about removing the multiplier, with one of your points being people in base keeping up with people they previously fought in Sage Mode

The sandbox has his base at City level and his Sage Mode at Large Mountain level.

He’s conveying how much of a threat Tobi is to Kakashi and Yamato by informing them that Minato struggled against him. Again, nothing there is referring to Naruto himself.

"This guy's so strong that somebody weaker than me is struggling with him".
This is basically the sentence I'm seeing right now.

Regardless of if he did talk about himself, he shouldn't be "so strong" if he's below base Naruto.

Also if you want to be technical, Minato didn’t struggle against Tobi because of AP reasons, it was because of Tobi’s hax.

That's not what Naruto's thinking about, he just said "he's strong".
The only hint Minato said was "he saw through all my moves".

Alright, Minato’s whole ass Kurama Avatar, even while doing a combined jutsu with BSM Naruto, was countered and sent flying after clashing with Juubito.

Would you now like to argue that Sage Minato can take hits from someone far stronger than someone that can clash with two Kurama Avatars?

Didn't a single arm of Minato's bijuu tear off Juubito's chakra arm?

 

[LordTracer]

Didn't even deal AP damage, it was the cellular stuff that was an issue.

Doesn’t really change my point tbh

The sandbox has his base at City level and his Sage Mode at Large Mountain level.

Y’know, we were thinking about making downscaling from Sage Mode and CS2 a future part of the revision plans lel

"This guy's so strong that somebody weaker than me is struggling with him".
This is basically the sentence I'm seeing right now.

Regardless of if he did talk about himself, he shouldn't be "so strong" if he's below base Naruto.

That someone weaker than Naruto is also leaps and bounds stronger than Kakashi and Yamato, who he’s talking to at that moment. So yeah, Naruto can refer to him as “so strong” if he’s trying to convey the threat to two people that are far, far, FAR below Minato level.

That's not what Naruto's thinking about, he just said "he's strong".
The only hint Minato said was "he saw through all my moves".

Allow me to take a page out of your book and propose that Naruto might be talking about exactly that, and not AP.

Didn't a single arm of Minato's bijuu tear off Juubito's chakra arm?

Unless I just missed it, no, he didn’t.

I won’t be able to respond for a little while, about to have dinner.

 

[KingTempest]

Doesn’t really change my point tbh

Fair

Y’know, we were thinking about making downscaling from Sage Mode and CS2 a future part of the revision plans lel

Oof

That someone weaker than Naruto is also leaps and bounds stronger than Kakashi and Yamato, who he’s talking to at that moment. So yeah, Naruto can refer to him as “so strong” if he’s trying to convey the threat to two people that are far, far, FAR below Minato level.

Kakashi was on the level of Pain, stopped his rods, took his Shinra Tensei's, etc., he's not leaps below him at all.

Allow me to take a page out of your book and propose that Naruto might be talking about exactly that, and not AP.

Spoiler: Strength

If there is no further context is given, then strength means AP.

We discussed this too, Naruto said it immediately after doing something AP related, and there’s no extra context given, so when he says “stronger,” he does in fact, mean strength UwU

If there is no context given whatsoever, then yes, stronger actually means stronger.

Yeah, let’s not start this cherry-picking nonsense again. If there is no further context given to the statements, and there isn’t, stronger means actual strength and not whatever you randomly come up with

Context is exactly what you need to say if the term stronger doesn’t mean strength. If there is no further context given in a statement of “A is stronger than B,” then A is just stronger than B.

Unless I just missed it, no, he didn’t.

I was mistaken, he smacked it aside with its tail and its hand. Still good enough.

I won’t be able to respond for a little while, about to have dinner.

Gotcha, enjoy

 

[Nierre]

Under different circumstances I feel like I'd normally be the main cause of the CRT lasting this long.

it's okay damage we are very grateful for your input and work

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Kakashi was on the level of Pain, stopped his rods, took his Shinra Tensei's, etc., he's not leaps below him at all.

TBF Pain wasn't at his strongest due to having all Six Paths active + the Animal Path Summons + the distance from the Nagato

 

[KingTempest]

TBF Pain wasn't at his strongest due to having all Six Paths active + the Animal Path Summons + the distance from the Nagato

This Pain didn't axe half (it's an approximation, please don't make me prove it was half) his life doing the Ridiculous Shinra Tensei, and the animal path summons don't mean much for Pain's physicals. Plus he was the same distance away than Naruto.

 

[LordTracer]

Gotcha, enjoy

Can confirm, I did enjoy it

Oof

Yeah lol, although those plans are kinda on the back burner since we lost the 7-A calc (for now) and Part I is the next planned revision.

Kakashi was on the level of Pain, stopped his rods, took his Shinra Tensei's, etc., he's not leaps below him at all.

He’s on the level of low-end Pain, yeah. Minato would skeet on low-end Pain lel.

Spoiler: Strength

You gave the extra context though, Minato told Naruto that Tobi had seen through all his moves, which definitely wouldn’t be AP if Naruto was thinking back to that. In fact, Obito seeing through all of Minato’s moves was the only context Naruto had about their fight at that point (unless I’m forgetting something), so it’s very likely that’s what he’s thinking about.

I was mistaken, he smacked it aside with its tail and its hand. Still good enough.

Ehhhh Juubito still cancelled out Minato and Naruto’s combined Kurama Avatar Rasengan. So it still wouldn’t make sense for Sage Minato to be able to take hits from someone stronger than Juubito.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

This Pain didn't axe half (it's an approximation, please don't make me prove it was half) his life doing the Ridiculous Shinra Tensei, and the animal path summons don't mean much for Pain's physicals. Plus he was the same distance away than Naruto.

The point is that their Chakra is split split among the bodies + summons + whatever distance does to their Chakra.

And wasn't Nagato trying to get information out of Kakashi?

 

[KingTempest]

Can confirm, I did enjoy it

Fuegooo

Yeah lol, although those plans are kinda on the back burner since we lost the 7-A calc (for now) and Part I is the next planned revision.

Sucks to hear that

He’s on the level of low-end Pain, yeah. Minato would skeet on low-end Pain lel.

Minato should be able to skeet on every end Pain -_-

You gave the extra context though, Minato told Naruto that Tobi had seen through all his moves, which definitely wouldn’t be AP if Naruto was thinking back to that. In fact, Obito seeing through all of Minato’s moves was the only context Naruto had about their fight at that point (unless I’m forgetting something), so it’s very likely that’s what he’s thinking about.

Spoiler: Strength

The term “stronger” is not used to say someone is more experienced, skilled, or more haxed

Same thing here.

Ehhhh Juubito still cancelled out Minato and Naruto’s combined Kurama Avatar Rasengan. So it still wouldn’t make sense for Sage Minato to be able to take hits from someone stronger than Juubito.

Minato has 2 feats of taking hits from a 6 paths char, one from Juubito above and one from Madara, so idk man

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Minato has 2 feats of taking hits from a 6 paths char, one from Juubito above and one from Madara, so idk man

He has higher durability against kicks duh.

 

[KingTempest]

The point is that their Chakra is split split among the bodies + summons + whatever distance does to their Chakra.

I know, and there wasn't really a difference compared to the one with SM.

The summons would've made them weaker? If that's the case then it'd be 4-5 paths + 3 summons that Naruto fought, which makes a weaker Pain that Naruto struggled with compared to a stronger one with Kakashi.

The distance between em for Kakashi fight and Naruto fight was the same. Chakra was probably split between more bodies against Naruto cause of the summons.
That shows... a lot tbh

And wasn't Nagato trying to get information out of Kakashi?

He confirms he wanted him dead.

 

[KingTempest]

Kakashi's feats on Pain btw

Stopped the force of his rods with a single hand.
Could take a stab from his rods.
Can take a Shinra Tensei and get up moderately fine.
Takes another Shinra Tensei from Pain.
Pain has visible shock from his Raikiri.
If we still aren't worrying about pressure and such like I brought up earlier in the thread, Raikiri destroyed Asura Path's Body (top half came off)
Takes (not tanks, takes) another Shinra Tensei.

 

[LordTracer]

Minato should be able to skeet on every end Pain -_-

Tbh I’d back Sage Minato in a fight against peak Pain. And in terms of AP, he’s definitely up there. But in base, ehhhhh

I’m low-key thinking about Minato getting a “possibly higher” or “possibly far higher”, but definitely not a solid tier.

Same thing here.

I still stand by that statement if there’s no extra context. But here, there is extra context. The only thing Minato told Naruto about that fight is “He saw right through all of my moves.” That’s not something you can gauge AP from.

Minato has 2 feats of taking hits from a 6 paths char, one from Juubito above and one from Madara, so idk man

Mmm, one of these feats is Kurama Avatar Minato (and the stronger Naruto) getting yeeted by Juubito.

The other is Sage Minato, much weaker than the Kurama Avatar, getting yeeted by Juubidara, far stronger than Juubito.

Second feat is lookin’ kinda sus

 

[KingTempest]

Tbh I’d back Sage Minato in a fight against peak Pain. And in terms of AP, he’s definitely up there. But in base, ehhhhh

Mannn

I’m low-key thinking about Minato getting a “possibly higher” or “possibly far higher”, but definitely not a solid tier.

Possibly far higher. I fail to believe that the Gokage are all individually able to just body Minato, especially Ay who's his rival.

I still stand by that statement if there’s no extra context. But here, there is extra context. The only thing Minato told Naruto about that fight is “He saw right through all of my moves.” That’s not something you can gauge AP from.

The only extra content is "he could see through all my moves".

We don't use the extra content for all of these below.

Naruto - Pain stated that Naruto had pushed him farther than ever before, which should put him above Sage Jiraiya
Stated to have surpassed his predecessors, Jiraiya and Minato

Kakashi - Much stronger than he was during the Fourth Shinobi World War

Fu - Her abilities were enhanced by having the Sharingan and Rinnegan

Bee - He should be stronger than the other V2 Jinchūriki as he was referred to as the "epitome of Jinchūriki" by Kisame

But we wanna use extra context for "see through my moves".

Mmm, one of these feats is Kurama Avatar Minato (and the stronger Naruto) getting yeeted by Juubito.

The feat you provided earlier where he kicked him far and didn't even rip the cape.

The other is Sage Minato, much weaker than the Kurama Avatar, getting yeeted by Juubidara, far stronger than Juubito.

Neither one of these broke skin while we see Edo tenseis get dusted when enough force is applied.

2 feats compared to 1 antifeat

 

[MinatoSparkle]

He has higher durability against kicks duh.

Just like Sasuke

I’m low-key thinking about Minato getting a “possibly higher” or “possibly far higher”, but definitely not a solid tier.

Wow, I never thought it'd happen. Cheers, folks!

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

The summons would've made them weaker? If that's the case then it'd be 4-5 paths + 3 summons that Naruto fought, which makes a weaker Pain that Naruto struggled with compared to a stronger one with Kakashi.

Naruto only struggled when he was either out of Sage Mode or was dealing with fewer active Paths.

Naruto killed the Asura Path and Pretha Path with a stomp/punch.

Killed the Animal Path and Naraka Path with double Rasengans.

Killed the Human Path with a Rasenshuriken.

Naruto didn't have to deal with the Summons or ST via the Toads handling the summons and the Deva Path not having ST.

Kakashi struggled with two Paths with help from Choji and Chouza while the other four paths and summons were busy.

Chouza and Kakashi were able to cripple the Asura Path.

They didn't have to deal with the Summons and the rest of the Paths.

 

[LordTracer]

Possibly far higher. I fail to believe that the Gokage are all individually able to just body Minato, especially Ay who's his rival.

[insert current stuff here], possibly far higher (Is frequently given praise after his death, but lacks concrete feats)

Justification could use work, but that’s more or less what I think it should look like. Also the stuff about him being stronger than a younger Hiruzen could go in the “possibly far higher.”

We don't use the extra content for all of these below.

I’m pretty sure Slayer already explained the Pain statement earlier in the thread

Kakashi’s statement directly states that his combat power had increased from when he fought Obito and Madara. I’m not seeing any extra context?

The Edo Jinchūriki thing was also explained earlier in the thread

I don’t agree with using that B statement for AP, I would be in favor of removing that.

But we wanna use extra context for "see through my moves".

It’s literally the only thing Naruto knows about that fight. It’s not really the same as the other statements when it’s the only thing Minato told Naruto.

2 feats compared to 1 antifeat

The anti-feat was done against a vastly stronger version of Minato than the one in the two “feats,” and one of the feats was Minato getting hit by a vastly stronger character, so you can’t even say it’s consistent.

It’s more like Juubidara level Sage Minato v. Juubito level KCM2 Minato v. not scaling the non-Six Paths character to Six Paths stuff