See, we told you we were working on it! (Naruto Revision Part 1: Scaling)

[OneBleachHurricane]

The funny thing is that Obito literally showed zero strength or AP feats at any point during that flashback lol.

He showed that he was able to lift a baby, and cuffs with chains

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

He showed that he was able to lift a baby, and cuffs with chains

Oof, I stand corrected.

 

[Metalija]

Since Minato doesn't have concrete feats we need to scale him using the narrative implication, and narrative implies that Minato is High 7-A. Like i really doubt that Ay would praise Minato so much if Minato is not even able to scratch Ay with his attacks. Like whats the point of being skilled and fast if you can't even hurt your rival?

 

[RisingIons]

Gonna compile stuff on Minato:

Chakra (base)​

Kakashi could never move large objects, prior to receiving a piece of Naruto's chakra (which is at least a 3x chakra boost) which allowed him to kamui the entire 8 tails. Before that, Guy stated Kakashi didn't have the strength to kamui an individual tailed beast's bijuu bomb, which is several times smaller than the bijuu in this scan. So an at least 3x boost allowed Kakashi to warp something at or around 10x the size of something he couldn't do previously.

Minato was able to teleport away 100% Kurama's bijuu bomb, then fight Obito as well as seal Kurama into two parts. 50% Kurama was able to match a fully charged bijuu bomb from 5 bijuu, which was several times larger than the ones Kakashi intended to warp. A full power bijuu bomb between 50% Kurama and Gyuki further dwarfed the size of the bombs from the 5 bijuu.

Juubi's full power bijuu bomb, dwarfed even that combined bijuu bomb, dwarfed Gyuki, the ninja alliance, and seemed to be as high as the tenpenchii crater, and Minato was able to teleport it away.

So in terms of chakra Alive Minato* > Edo Minato >>>>>>>>>>>(comfortably and casually)>>>>>>>> at least 3x Kurama Boost Kakashi >>> War Arc Kakashi. I remember that was a CRT on chakra a while ago, so maybe chakra = power, but I'm not familiar with that thread. Following up on chakra multipliers, Naruto with suppressed Kurama chakra had 4x more chakra than Kakashi, and if it wasn't suppressed it would be about 100 times more. I don't know how well that ratio carried out to the War Arc, but its worth mention.

*Edos are some degree weaker than their living forms, given these scans

Fukusaku already stated he only trained Jiraiya and Naruto because of their massive chakra levels otherwise natural energy would essentially kill them, so this extends to Minato as well.

Tobirama possibly implies Minato has more chakra than he does, since he teleported the entire ninja alliance to safety. Granted the feat was in KCM, but Minato has more impressive feats in base.

Chakra (KCM)​

Comparable if not greater than KCM Naruto, who Hashirama stated had a volume of chakra comparable to his own, after Naruto increased his power output. By Kurama's own statement, Naruto could share his chakra with the alliance because he was a life-long jinchuuriki with Uzumaki blood. Minato had neither and could do the same thing.

Was able to fight side by side with BSM Naruto, with the two being able to bat away the Juubi's arms, and gave the rest of his chakra to Naruto.

Combat​

Cuts through Rinnebito who was already pierced by Kakashi's chidori (Which should be easy given he's in KCM, but also because he cut through partially-transformed B in the past)
Took a kick from Rinnedara in sage mode (which is a durability feat for Minato because his edo body was still intact, unlike Tsunade or Kurama-amped Lee blowing through Edo Madara's body with pure physicals)
Should scale above sage Naruto, who could internally damage Juubito with a rasengan, who's above Hashirama
Should be comparable to BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke who took several beating from Juubito

 

[Damage3245]

Why are you treating Minato's jutsu as having the same requirements or limitations as Kakashi's Kamui?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

What about kirin? Are we not ising that calculation?

 

[RisingIons]

Why are you treating Minato's jutsu as having the same requirements or limitations as Kakashi's Kamui?

They don't have the same requirements, one is eye based and one isn't. As far as limitations, the bigger something is, the more chakra it is going to take to entirely affect it (or the bigger something is, the more chakra is used, and there's several examples across several jutsu that support that). Obito speaks on this when he states even Minato wouldn't be able to teleport the smaller version of the shinju.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Teleportation requirements don't scale linearly, so the comparison between Minato and Kamui makes no sense. Obito needed massive amounts of Chakra from Sakura to teleport to Kaguya's dimension and even Kaguya herself got burnout by Dimension hopping while in turn, it took 30 fodder Shinobi to charge up a canon that could teleport the entire moon.

 

[KingTempest]

I guess Jiraiya being weaker. than Naruto is fine then

 

[RisingIons]

Teleportation requirements don't scale linearly, so the comparison between Minato and Kamui makes no sense. Obito needed massive amounts of Chakra from Sakura to teleport to Kaguya's dimension and even Kaguya herself got burnout by Dimension hopping while in turn, it took 30 fodder Shinobi to charge up a canon that could teleport the entire moon.

You're probably right.

However it takes three jonin-level ninja to perform Minato's solo FTG to transport one person. Minato has direct feats of teleporting large bijuu bombs at least hundreds of times the size of a regular person, and he was able to mix his chakra with the entire ninja alliance in KCM. I don't know how many ninja died, but assuming they have at least 1/3 their fighting force, that scales to needing the chakra of 60,000 jonin level ninja to replicate the same feat.

Minato is simply shown to have far greater chakra than Kakashi in base alone.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

also before I go I want to nip this in the bud, the whole "Minato said you needed Kurama to defeat the masked man, thing" isn't a supporting feat for Minato or even Obito, Minato at that point believes that Obito is Madara Uchiha who has so much hype and history behind his name that off course Minato would think this.

now I gotta go will only be able to partake in the thread much later today.

That would only make sense if Minato hadn't fought Obito after coming up with his theory. Anyways after asking if he was Madara, he then said it couldn't be, implying he didn't think it anymore. If Minato knew Base Naruto was stronger than him and thus Obito, he wouldn't make him out to be such a threat.

Minato being about to stab Ay is the reason why I'm considering him to be possibly higher.

But Minato is just going by the legend of Madara: not just Obito's strength.

Again, he's fought Obito and beat him, he knows Obito's strength well.

The funny thing is that Obito literally showed zero strength or AP feats throughout that entire flashback lol.

He did neg some elite anbu

And Minato thought defeating them was part of the reason that Obito could be Madara, implying they weren't just some fodder ninjas.

 

[BlackeJan]

What about kirin? Are we not ising that calculation?

^

 

[BlastX]

Kirin calc is something that needed to be talked about by calc members in a discussion, it's been said earlier in the thread.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

He did neg some elite anbu

And Minato thought defeating them was part of the reason that Obito could be Madara, implying they weren't just some fodder ninjas.

Like we already went over in our debate, this means pretty much nothing. Much like his other feat against the Kiri Ninja, it can't be quantified because these Ninjas' exact strength is unknown due to them being featless.
Like I told you, we don't really have a standard "Jōnin" tier for featless Shinobi to scale to.
But I will say that even if we did, it sure as hell won't be High 7-A lol.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

That would only make sense if Minato hadn't fought Obito after coming up with his theory. Anyways after asking if he was Madara, he then said it couldn't be, implying he didn't think it anymore. If Minato knew Base Naruto was stronger than him and thus Obito, he wouldn't make him out to be such a threat.

Except for the fact that Minato talking about Obito's power is directly related to Madara's history with Konoha and the Nine tails, first one being that he can control the Nine-Tails, this is something that is widely known to have been done by Madara Uchiha (hence why he assumes), also the seemingly inside knowledge of the Jinchūriki and hidden leaf (something Madara would know ) he then mentions Obito's space-time (Kamui) being better than His and finally talks about Obito's Ideology. this is prob the worst example to use to argue AP, considering we not only have the full context of what Minato thinks is dangerous it's also consistent with the fact that Minato stomps Obito the moment he hits him with one Rasengan.

Nothing Minato says here suggests it has anything to do AP, it's entirely based on hax, the power to control the ninetails and the seemingly inside of knowledge of the Village.

as for Minato saying "it can't be" Occam's razor should apply based on what this masked man knows and what Minato knows about Madara, it leads him to believe that it should be Madara but at the same time Madara shouldn't be alive at this point in time and that's where the dissonance comes in.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Like we already went over in our debate, this means pretty much nothing. Much like his other feat against the Kiri Ninja, it can't be quantified because these Ninjas' exact strength is unknown due to them being featless.
Like I told you, we don't really have a standard "Jōnin" tier for featless Shinobi to scale to.
But I will say that even if we did, it sure as hell won't be High 7-A lol.

You didn't reply to what I said about Konoha 11 being 7-B and being chunin tier.

Except for the fact that Minato talking about Obito's power is directly related to Madara's history with Konoha and the Nine tails, first one being that he can control the Nine-Tails, this is something that is widely known to have been done by Madara Uchiha (hence why he assumes), also the seemingly inside knowledge of the Jinchūriki and hidden leaf (something Madara would know ) he then mentions Obito's space-time (Kamui) being better than His and finally talks about Obito's Ideology. this is prob the worst example to use to argue AP, considering we not only have the full context of what Minato thinks is dangerous it's also consistent with the fact that Minato stomps Obito the moment he hits him with one Rasengan.

Nothing Minato says here suggests it has anything to do AP, it's entirely based on hax, the power to control the ninetails and the seemingly inside of knowledge of the Village.

as for Minato saying "it can't be" Occam's razor should apply based on what this masked man knows and what Minato knows about Madara, it leads him to believe that it should be Madara but at the same time Madara shouldn't be alive at this point in time and that's where the dissonance comes in.

He would know his ability to summon the Nine Tails isn't a factor atm since it has a jinchuriki.

Hi inside knowledge has nothing to do with power, so he wouldn't have said you need extraordinary strength to hope to stand against him.

Saying hax is the main reason is fine I suppose, but idk. I feel like the use of the word strength makes it seem otherwise.

Yeah but he's not sure it's Madara anyways, so his judgement definitely isn't entirely based around that.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

You didn't reply to what I said about Konoha 11 being 7-B and being chunin tier.

You're not listening to me. We don't scale by rank, period. We used to way back in the day, but we don't anymore.
It's not the most reliable scaling method.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I advocate we just put Minato at Unknown for now and move on with the CRT, if later down the line we want to change the tier we can solely focus on Minato.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

I advocate we just put Minato at Unknown for now and move on with the CRT, if later down the line we want to change the tier we can solely focus on Minato.

I agree with this.

 

[RisingIons]

Spams FTG a whole bunch
Warps 100% Kurama's TBB
Fights and wrecks Obito spamming FTG some more, using a contract seal, rasengan
Summons Gamabunta, and teleports away 100% kurama, who is more than twice the size of his 50% counterpart, and only after this is is chakra close to gone
Still had the energy to perform a summoning jutsu while he's impaled through his torso by Kurama, and seal the other half of Kurama into Naruto, while embedding his and Kushina's chakra

Then gets even better feats in his edo form.

On top of that Minato was a sage, which requires huge chakra reserves. Kakashi stated Naruto with Kurama restricted has 4 times more chakra than him, and with Naruto boosting his chakra volume by three times, was only able to transport Gyuki twice before having no chakra.

Stamina = mental + physical energy and Chakra = the mixing of these energies. No two jutsu are equivalent, got it, this means kamui can theoretically cost 40% chakra while FTG can cost 10%. This energy comes directly from stamina, which Minato objectively displays far greater amounts of.

But Kakashi's chakra > Minato's? Is he also above Sage Jiraiya?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

You're not listening to me. We don't scale by rank, period. We used to way back in the day, but we don't anymore.
It's not the most reliable scaling method.

Uh...you never said that. This is the first I'm hearing of it. But fine. Disagree, but it's not the biggest deal.

I advocate we just put Minato at Unknown for now and move on with the CRT, if later down the line we want to change the tier we can solely focus on Minato.

I think Slayer's idea in post 587 was good. I'm gonna be doing that soon. If not today, it'll definitely be done tomorrow.

Spams FTG a whole bunch
Warps 100% Kurama's TBB
Fights and wrecks Obito spamming FTG some more, using a contract seal, rasengan
Summons Gamabunta, and teleports away 100% kurama, who is more than twice the size of his 50% counterpart, and only after this is is chakra close to gone
Still had the energy to perform a summoning jutsu while he's impaled through his torso by Kurama, and seal the other half of Kurama into Naruto, while embedding his and Kushina's chakra

Then gets even better feats in his edo form.

On top of that Minato was a sage, which requires huge chakra reserves. Kakashi stated Naruto with Kurama restricted has 4 times more chakra than him, and with Naruto boosting his chakra volume by three times, was only able to transport Gyuki twice before having no chakra.

Stamina = mental + physical energy and Chakra = the mixing of these energies. No two jutsu are equivalent, got it, this means kamui can theoretically cost 40% chakra while FTG can cost 10%. This energy comes directly from stamina, which Minato objectively displays far greater amounts of.

But Kakashi's chakra > Minato's? Is he also above Sage Jiraiya?

I don't think ppl are arguing Kakashi has more chakra than Minato.

 

[RisingIons]

I don't think ppl are arguing Kakashi has more chakra than Minato.

I thought more chakra = ap from the chakra crt thread

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Spoiler: Alright, everyone, staff or plebeians alike, read this for a comprehensive list of my arguments for Minato being High 7-A/+

First, to address the antistatements.

Kakashi stated that Naruto wielded jutsu beyond even Minato. But this is clearly referring to Naruto advancing the Rasengan, not AP.

He's specifically referring to jutsu, not power level or anything like that. As for the statement about power

This has more than one interpretation. The definition of display is "a performance, show, or event intended for public entertainment." This clearly implies it's a visual trait. So if it's a display of power rivalling Minato, that just means it has similar destructive capacity, not necessarily attack potency. Minato is also a character that has been retconned throughout the series possibly more than any other (at the very least he's up there). This isn't directly related to his AP scaling, but just to demonstrate the fact that yes, retcons do exist for Minato, here's a display of Minato's speed "progression" just in the war arc alone.

He went from being compared to initial KCM Naruto (who struggled to outspeed V1 Ay) to a later KCM Naruto (who was able to blitz V2 Ay) to KCM2 Naruto. If this can be true of his speed, why can't it be true for power? I'm not saying this is definitive, I'm just saying to keep this in mind so you can be more open to the idea of Minato's power being upped by Kishimoto over the course of the story, and not need to keep him so rigidly confined to 7-B because of one or two statements early on.

Then there's the statement about Naruto surpassing Minato (and Jiraiya) in the Pain Arc. The argument was made that since Minato has SM as well, this means that SM Naruto>SM Minato and Base Naruto>Base Minato. But this is under the idea that Minato having SM was something Kishimoto had in mind. But if you look at this statement, it's clear that he didn't.

"He's even mastered the same senjutsu as Master Jiraiya?" He didn't say the same senjutsu as me and sensei, he specifically only mentioned Jiraiya. So what's the reason for this? The obvious conclusion would be that Minato himself didn't have SM. And you can't argue Minato meant Naruto mastered it while he didn't, because it's not like Jiraiya mastered it either. Minato actually knew it better than Jiraiya considering he didn't have partial frog markings. So at best this statement can be used to prove SM Naruto>Minato. Certainly not Base. More evidence suggesting Base Naruto wouldn't be superior to Minato is this.

Minato said Naruto would need extraordinary strength to beat Obito, despite having seen SM Naruto in action, and yet Minato was able to body Obito, so then the scaling chain would be like this: Minato>YM Obito>SM Naruto>Base Naruto>Minato. Even putting Minato below SM Naruto is fallacious due to this. This is supported by it being implied only Naruto with Nine Tails power could beat Obito.

And Naruto seemed to think of Obito as a great threat despite supposedly being stronger than him in Base, and thought EVEN Minato struggling against Obito was saying a ton

In this same page, he also implied Obito was stronger than Pain, and Minato is stronger still, but obviously Base Naruto isn't on Pain's level. Even SM Naruto isn't on FP Pain's level.

Besides, if Base Naruto did surpass Minato overall, he should scale above him in speed as well, and I doubt I need to explain the myriad of issues with that. Even SM Naruto surpassing Minato overall and being able to beat him in a fight would be rather inconsistent with all we know about Minato.

As for reasons why Minato should upscale to High 7-A at least, here's the main one

This statement has been argued as a praise of character, but that doesn't make sense for two reasons. First, character isn't what Ay values in a shinobi, but rather power

So if Ay respects Minato as the greatest shinobi, that would make Minato the strongest shinobi. What supports this even more is what Ay follows his statement up with. "A finer shinobi never lived...But even so, with all his power, why do you think he is not here today to help stop this crisis?" These two statements, despite being separated, are clearly part of a whole, and proves even more that what Ay was referring to was strength. And I know the VIZ manga translation is what the wiki accepts, but just to show that this is what was trying to be implied, here are examples of other translations to the statement

If every other version of the statement is referring to power so incredibly obviously, it seems that it's just a weird translation on VIZ's part.

And the idea that Minato was beyond High 7-As is supported by Killer Bee trembling at the mention of Minato's name (it was argued that he was shivering from excitement that Minato created the Rasengan after the Bijuudama, but why would he only be excited after hearing Minato created it? Either way it would be like fate)

And it was stated that Minato rivalled Ay and Bee together

And Minato threatened the life of Ay and cut through Bee's PT tentacle

Despite knowing full well about Ay's "impenetrable" armor, Bee thought it necessary to interfere. The PT tentacle should also scale at least above a V1 Bee, considering that's a tiny unfocused amount of Gyuki's chakra as opposed to it taking the physical form of the Bijuu and being much larger than the V1 cloak. Plus, there's the fact that the tail was able to knock V2 Ay away and make him grunt in pain, so the PT~>V2 Ay, and since dura scales to striking strength, this would mean Minato would also be able to damage Ay.

And Minato being unsurpassable by almost anyone is supported by Kakashi's statement (which is itself backed up by Naruto's statement)

This has been argued against by referring only to the completion of the Rasengan, but then why would Naruto be the ONLY one to surpass Minato? There are numerous other jutsu more complex and powerful than the Rasengan, yet Kakashi doesn't consider the people who wield/have created those to be greater than Minato.

And Kishimoto himself claimed Minato and Hiruzen were the strongest dead ninja in the verse. https://mblintheu.wordpress.com/2009/07/16/masashi-kishimoto-interview-about-minato-march-2008/ I'm not gonna use this to show Minato's stronger than Hashirama and Madara or anything, but this should definitely apply to all those who were shown dying prior to this statement (which was made right after Itachi's death), which would include SM Jiraiya. You can argue this only means SM Minato>SM Jiraiya, but besides the argument I've made already about SM being a retcon, there's also the fact that Minato doesn't use SM in battle so it shouldn't really be taken as a part of his general combat prowess (because what abilities he uses is part of combat intelligence, which is an important part of a shinobi's power).

Plus, in that same interview Kishimoto said there are "a couple of shinobis whose stronger than him." Let's go over the strongest ninja in the verse alive atm (in terms of AP)
1. Killer Bee (6-C in BM, High 7-A+ in V2)
2. Pain (6-C w/CST and CT, High 7-A otherwise at max)
2. Tsunade (At least High 7-A+)
3. Ay/Ohnoki/Gaara/Mei/7th Gate Guy/Fused Kisame (High 7-A+)
10. Danzo (High 7-A w/powerful ninjutsu)
So unless "a couple" means 10 or more, Minato should absolutely scale to High 7-A+. The Minato>Obito>Pain and Minato>Ay and Minato>everyone Ay knows and Minato>everyone Kakashi is aware of metas also support this.

(This statement would also upscale Prime Hiruzen to High 7-A+, just as a side note)

So in summary, antistatements that put Minato at 7-B are:
1. Somewhat vague statement about a "display" of power
2. A statement from Kakashi that isn't even referring to AP
3. A very flimsy statement that ignores the fact that SM Minato almost certainly didn't exist at the time, and that it isn't even necessarily relating to AP. There's also the fact that this would mean Base Naruto could beat Base Minato in a fight, which would put his speed at KCM Naruto or above level speed (depending on what is accepted for Minato)

Evidence supporting Minato being High 7-A/High 7-A+
1. 9 narrative implications (Minato's convo with Naruto which had 2 statement supporting it, the statements about only Naruto with Nine Tails power being able to beat Obito despite Base Minato bodying him, Naruto thinking Minato's struggle against Obito is saying a lot, a very solid statement from Ay that's backed up more by multiple different translations, Bee being fearful of Minato, and Kakashi and Naruto saying Naruto's the only one able to surpass Minato)
2. 2 word of god statements (mutually recognized military forces and the interview)
3. 1 concrete feat for High 7-A+ in him cutting a tail that was able to harm V2 Ay and knock him away

1 decent piece of evidence, one statement not relating to AP at all, and a mediocre statement that has many arguments against it versus 12 pieces of evidence (of admittedly varying levels of quality, but still, more average quality than the statements for At least 7-B Minato). And there are many more, like Minato fighting BZ Obito, Jiraiya thinking everyone pales in comparison to Minato, etc., these are just some of the more solid ones.

I've laid out the arguments. I feel like given the more than 4x difference in terms of evidence for High 7-A/+, it should be clear, but what do you guys think?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I thought more chakra = ap from the chakra crt thread

Wait, ur talking about WA Kakashi right? In that case I get your argument, but chakra quantity arguments are too vague to really be scaleable. Like someone else mentioned, it's impossible to compare the chakra costs of FTG to Kamui, even if the same size.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Btw in case this isn't enough, I was wondering if anyone here are Japanese translators or knows one so we can get confirmation on what the Ay statement really said?

 

[Sasukesolos]

I advocate we just put Minato at Unknown for now and move on with the CRT, if later down the line we want to change the tier we can solely focus on Minato.

I agree

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I agree

Did you read my post?

 

[Kidkinsey]

After reading it I agree with sparkles placement of minato

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Spoiler: Alright, everyone, staff or plebeians alike, read this for a comprehensive list of my arguments for Minato being High 7-A/+

First, to address the antistatements.

Kakashi stated that Naruto wielded jutsu beyond even Minato. But this is clearly referring to Naruto advancing the Rasengan, not AP.

He's specifically referring to jutsu, not power level or anything like that. As for the statement about power

This has more than one interpretation. The definition of display is "a performance, show, or event intended for public entertainment." This clearly implies it's a visual trait. So if it's a display of power rivalling Minato, that just means it has similar destructive capacity, not necessarily attack potency. Minato is also a character that has been retconned throughout the series possibly more than any other (at the very least he's up there). This isn't directly related to his AP scaling, but just to demonstrate the fact that yes, retcons do exist for Minato, here's a display of Minato's speed "progression" just in the war arc alone.

He went from being compared to initial KCM Naruto (who struggled to outspeed V1 Ay) to a later KCM Naruto (who was able to blitz V2 Ay) to KCM2 Naruto. If this can be true of his speed, why can't it be true for power? I'm not saying this is definitive, I'm just saying to keep this in mind so you can be more open to the idea of Minato's power being upped by Kishimoto over the course of the story, and not need to keep him so rigidly confined to 7-B because of one or two statements early on.

Then there's the statement about Naruto surpassing Minato (and Jiraiya) in the Pain Arc. The argument was made that since Minato has SM as well, this means that SM Naruto>SM Minato and Base Naruto>Base Minato. But this is under the idea that Minato having SM was something Kishimoto had in mind. But if you look at this statement, it's clear that he didn't.

"He's even mastered the same senjutsu as Master Jiraiya?" He didn't say the same senjutsu as me and sensei, he specifically only mentioned Jiraiya. So what's the reason for this? The obvious conclusion would be that Minato himself didn't have SM. And you can't argue Minato meant Naruto mastered it while he didn't, because it's not like Jiraiya mastered it either. Minato actually knew it better than Jiraiya considering he didn't have partial frog markings. So at best this statement can be used to prove SM Naruto>Minato. Certainly not Base. More evidence suggesting Base Naruto wouldn't be superior to Minato is this.

Minato said Naruto would need extraordinary strength to beat Obito, despite having seen SM Naruto in action, and yet Minato was able to body Obito, so then the scaling chain would be like this: Minato>YM Obito>SM Naruto>Base Naruto>Minato. Even putting Minato below SM Naruto is fallacious due to this. This is supported by it being implied only Naruto with Nine Tails power could beat Obito.

And Naruto seemed to think of Obito as a great threat despite supposedly being stronger than him in Base, and thought EVEN Minato struggling against Obito was saying a ton

In this same page, he also implied Obito was stronger than Pain, and Minato is stronger still, but obviously Base Naruto isn't on Pain's level. Even SM Naruto isn't on FP Pain's level.

Besides, if Base Naruto did surpass Minato overall, he should scale above him in speed as well, and I doubt I need to explain the myriad of issues with that. Even SM Naruto surpassing Minato overall and being able to beat him in a fight would be rather inconsistent with all we know about Minato.

As for reasons why Minato should upscale to High 7-A at least, here's the main one

This statement has been argued as a praise of character, but that doesn't make sense for two reasons. First, character isn't what Ay values in a shinobi, but rather power

So if Ay respects Minato as the greatest shinobi, that would make Minato the strongest shinobi. What supports this even more is what Ay follows his statement up with. "A finer shinobi never lived...But even so, with all his power, why do you think he is not here today to help stop this crisis?" These two statements, despite being separated, are clearly part of a whole, and proves even more that what Ay was referring to was strength. And I know the VIZ manga translation is what the wiki accepts, but just to show that this is what was trying to be implied, here are examples of other translations to the statement

If every other version of the statement is referring to power so incredibly obviously, it seems that it's just a weird translation on VIZ's part.

And the idea that Minato was beyond High 7-As is supported by Killer Bee trembling at the mention of Minato's name (it was argued that he was shivering from excitement that Minato created the Rasengan after the Bijuudama, but why would he only be excited after hearing Minato created it? Either way it would be like fate)

And it was stated that Minato rivalled Ay and Bee together

And Minato threatened the life of Ay and cut through Bee's PT tentacle

Despite knowing full well about Ay's "impenetrable" armor, Bee thought it necessary to interfere. The PT tentacle should also scale at least above a V1 Bee, considering that's a tiny unfocused amount of Gyuki's chakra as opposed to it taking the physical form of the Bijuu and being much larger than the V1 cloak. Plus, there's the fact that the tail was able to knock V2 Ay away and make him grunt in pain, so the PT~>V2 Ay, and since dura scales to striking strength, this would mean Minato would also be able to damage Ay.

And Minato being unsurpassable by almost anyone is supported by Kakashi's statement (which is itself backed up by Naruto's statement)

This has been argued against by referring only to the completion of the Rasengan, but then why would Naruto be the ONLY one to surpass Minato? There are numerous other jutsu more complex and powerful than the Rasengan, yet Kakashi doesn't consider the people who wield/have created those to be greater than Minato.

And Kishimoto himself claimed Minato and Hiruzen were the strongest dead ninja in the verse. https://mblintheu.wordpress.com/2009/07/16/masashi-kishimoto-interview-about-minato-march-2008/ I'm not gonna use this to show Minato's stronger than Hashirama and Madara or anything, but this should definitely apply to all those who were shown dying prior to this statement (which was made right after Itachi's death), which would include SM Jiraiya. You can argue this only means SM Minato>SM Jiraiya, but besides the argument I've made already about SM being a retcon, there's also the fact that Minato doesn't use SM in battle so it shouldn't really be taken as a part of his general combat prowess (because what abilities he uses is part of combat intelligence, which is an important part of a shinobi's power).

Plus, in that same interview Kishimoto said there are "a couple of shinobis whose stronger than him." Let's go over the strongest ninja in the verse alive atm (in terms of AP)
1. Killer Bee (6-C in BM, High 7-A+ in V2)
2. Pain (6-C w/CST and CT, High 7-A otherwise at max)
2. Tsunade (At least High 7-A+)
3. Ay/Ohnoki/Gaara/Mei/7th Gate Guy/Fused Kisame (High 7-A+)
10. Danzo (High 7-A w/powerful ninjutsu)
So unless "a couple" means 10 or more, Minato should absolutely scale to High 7-A+. The Minato>Obito>Pain and Minato>Ay and Minato>everyone Ay knows and Minato>everyone Kakashi is aware of metas also support this.

(This statement would also upscale Prime Hiruzen to High 7-A+, just as a side note)

So in summary, antistatements that put Minato at 7-B are:
1. Somewhat vague statement about a "display" of power
2. A statement from Kakashi that isn't even referring to AP
3. A very flimsy statement that ignores the fact that SM Minato almost certainly didn't exist at the time, and that it isn't even necessarily relating to AP. There's also the fact that this would mean Base Naruto could beat Base Minato in a fight, which would put his speed at KCM Naruto or above level speed (depending on what is accepted for Minato)

Evidence supporting Minato being High 7-A/High 7-A+
1. 9 narrative implications (Minato's convo with Naruto which had 2 statement supporting it, the statements about only Naruto with Nine Tails power being able to beat Obito despite Base Minato bodying him, Naruto thinking Minato's struggle against Obito is saying a lot, a very solid statement from Ay that's backed up more by multiple different translations, Bee being fearful of Minato, and Kakashi and Naruto saying Naruto's the only one able to surpass Minato)
2. 2 word of god statements (mutually recognized military forces and the interview)
3. 1 concrete feat for High 7-A+ in him cutting a tail that was able to harm V2 Ay and knock him away

1 decent piece of evidence, one statement not relating to AP at all, and a mediocre statement that has many arguments against it versus 12 pieces of evidence (of admittedly varying levels of quality, but still, more average quality than the statements for At least 7-B Minato). And there are many more, like Minato fighting BZ Obito, Jiraiya thinking everyone pales in comparison to Minato, etc., these are just some of the more solid ones.

I've laid out the arguments. I feel like given the more than 4x difference in terms of evidence for High 7-A/+, it should be clear, but what do you guys think?

@Damage3245 @Shadowbokunohero @KingTempest @Jvando

Sorry for the ping fellas, but there you have it. The arguments for Minato scaling to High 7-A, as well as some counters for the 7-B scaling.
I'd like you to help us settle this matter once and for all. Here are the scaling options for Minato:
1) At least 7-B
2) At least 7-B, possibly higher/far higher
3) At least 7-B, possibly High 7-A/High 7-A+
4) High 7-A/High 7-A+
5) Unknown


For the record, I still heavily disagree with a few of the arguments used here. Specifically the statement about Naruto needing Kurama's chakra to defeat Obito, Kakashi mistaking Naruto for Minato and all of the other speed comparisons being used to extrapolate AP, Bee "trembling" at the thought of Minato, and pretty much all the other vague statements with multiple interpretations. However, I feel like I've already said everything there is to say in my responses to Sparkle, so I won't go at length here.

Let's finally get this over with lol.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Btw in case this isn't enough, I was wondering if anyone here are Japanese translators or knows one so we can get confirmation on what the Ay statement really said?

Arc might be able to, but you'll have to ask him.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Arc might be able to, but you'll have to ask him.

Yeah I’ll do it.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

For the record, I still heavily disagree with a few of the arguments used here. Specifically the statement about Naruto needing Kurama's chakra to defeat Obito, Kakashi mistaking Naruto for Minato and all of the other speed comparisons being used to extrapolate AP, Bee "trembling" at the thought of Minato, and pretty much all the other vague statements with multiple interpretations. However, I feel like I've already said everything there is to say in my responses to Sparkle, so I won't go at length here.

You heavily disagree with a few, but what about the overall package?

 

[Damage3245]

For the record, I still heavily disagree with a few of the arguments used here. Specifically the statement about Naruto needing Kurama's chakra to defeat Obito, Kakashi mistaking Naruto for Minato and all of the other speed comparisons being used to extrapolate AP, Bee "trembling" at the thought of Minato, and pretty much all the other vague statements with multiple interpretations. However, I feel like I've already said everything there is to say in my responses to Sparkle, so I won't go at length here.

I have to agree with UchihaSlayer here. A lot of these statements or interpretations don't support an AP upgrade to me, or are too vague to be used.

The most I'm willing to go for based on the current evidence is "At least 7-B, possibly higher".

 

[RanaProGamer]

If neither side can come to an agreement, shall we call a vote?

 

[Damage3245]

If neither side can come to an agreement, shall we call a vote?

That's what UchihaSlayer just called for.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I have to agree with UchihaSlayer here. A lot of these statements or interpretations don't support an AP upgrade to me, or are too vague to be used.

The most I'm willing to go for based on the current evidence is "At least 7-B, possibly higher".

Agreed, but what are your thoughts on the Ay scaling? That's probably the most solid thing going for Minato in all fairness.

 

[RanaProGamer]

1) At least 7-B
2) At least 7-B, possibly higher/far higher
3) At least 7-B, possibly High 7-A/High 7-A+
4) High 7-A/High 7-A+
5) Unknown

I'm stuck between these 2 cuz, on one hand, using Naruto for scaling seems vague, but on the other hand, we can't deny Ay's scaling.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Minato has scaling to high 7-A so give him that straight up.

 

[Shadyboi0]

Im stuck in between 3 and 4 imo

 

[Damage3245]

Agreed, but what are your thoughts on the Ay scaling? That's probably the most solid thing going for Minato in all fairness.

The issue is that Minato didn't actually harm Ay in that scene so it's not an outright feat. That scene is the reason why either a "possibly higher" or "likely higher" is fine with me but I would not make it his main AP justification.