Whelp.......
Well I have a feeling I know who they're gonna pick considering the staff has already seemed to have made up their mind on the scaling.
Hey, you never know man. I've had many of my proposals accepted before when I thought they'd never be accepted in a million years, and vice versa.
Minato does have many statements and implications putting him higher than 7-B though, more than he does for 7-B. The 7-B comparisons were just more narratively important so ppl tend to take it as the be all end all.
He has one flimsy statement putting him above vs 2 other more direct statements that put him there, so I respectfully disagree with your assessment.
Anyways blasting off the arm of a Zetsu cells enhanced Obito is pretty impressive.
No, it's unquantifiable is what it is. That version of Obito has literally one feat, which is surviving that Rasengan. Otherwise he's featless.
I meant the SM Naruto one. And I agree AP isn't everything. I'd say generally speed is more important which the site seems to agree with given the allowance for speed equalization and not AP equalization. Which is exactly why Base Naruto OVERALL surpassing Minato is likely a holistic statement (Fukasaku made no direct mention to AP after all), so he'd scale in speed too. Base Naruto>KCM Naruto confirmed.
He made no direct mention of speed either. That statement was made right after Naruto casually smashed the Asura Path to pieces, an AP feat. So it stands to reason that the statement would be about just that.
And if you really wanna get nitty gritty, the only thing that was later expanded upon more in the story was Minato having insane speed, it's not something we knew in quite as much detail at that point in the story, at least not to the extent that we do now.
The manga statement directly mentions power, but Kakashi's statement does not. Also display of power can be argued as a visual thing, AKA Naruto's Rasenshuriken scale is similar to the scale of one of Minato's attacks, not that the AP is the same. AKA DC. If you say Minato has no jutsu besides the small scale ones he's shown, that's actually incorrect.
Kakashi's statement not mentioning power does not contradict the other statement, they complement each other. And this part about DC vs AP is complete headcanon.
Apparently Minato had a jutsu like the Rasenshuriken, so maybe that's all the statement means (do I fully belive in this argument? Eh, not fully although for something I came up with on the fly it actually sorta makes sense. But hey, if ppl here won't accept the retcon argument I'll just have to make due).
I mean, this really changes nothing lol. Naruto's Rasenshuriken would still scale above this hypothetical Jutsu of his anyway.
Side note though, where's this statement from? You could use it to argue that Minato maybe had something similar to Naruto's Futon Rasengan, but couldn't quite evolve it into a Rasenshuriken.
Minato's statement as an Edo is very strong implication, and good enough implications are accepted as with Minato>Hiruzen.
It means nothing. All it would change is that Fukasaku's statement would be about base Minato instead of SM, it doesn't mean he's not capped by the FRS though.
If BZ Obito w/SPC = 950 and Juubidara = 1000, and Pre-Juubi Madara = 200, then it's most likely with a far smaller buff removed, Obito would be at least relative to Rinnegan SM Madara.
No, it's not. These are completely baseless assumptions.
Also, even if he was only High 7-A+, that'd still upscale Minato.
He was nothing, that version of Obito is featless.
If his shiver isn't from the coincidence, then it's most likely fear, which would be because of Minato's power.
And you can't prove that it was fear, so this point is completely moot.
It would at least scale above his Base durability, that's for sure.
Yes, but that version of B is completely Unknown, his base is featless, and we won't scale B from 16 years ago to current B for no reason. Especially not when we know he trained and got stronger, in attempts to catch up to his brother.
Is Bee respecting Minato known? I don't recall that ever being stated. Besides, why would they respect him if his power was that of a cockroach compared to them? And why would they have never won? All they would have needed to do was both go V2 then dash around destroying all the kunais and ignoring any attempt Minato made to stop them because his attacks just bounced off their skins then when they were all gone, they could go down to V1 and let Minato come to them, and when he stabbed through slightly, he'd be stuck, and they could one shot him. This is just one specific scenario, but there's plenty like that where they'd absolutely mop him if his power was really so pathetic. Think about it like this. With the profiles as they are now, either Ay or Bee vs Minato would be a shitstomp with 7-0 in terms of arguments taking the profiles into account. And I realize this is all sort of an appeal to emotion, but I genuinely don't believe there's a chance Kishimoto intended Ay and Cloaked Bee to be undamageable by MInato.
No offense, but I don't care about "author intent" or how you personally feel about a character. If he has zero AP feats against them, which he does, then we can't scale him just because and ignore other statements putting him lower because we don't like them. Let's try to be more objective, alright?
1. They fought many times, he obviously pulled it out at some point.
He fought A many times, not B. And even if he fought B later, you can't just assume that he used something. You also can't assume how the fight went. We're literally going into "what if?" territory right now.
2. I wasn't debunked, the thread was closed prematurely. Besides, I'm not arguing the tail is Bijuu level now, just that it's above V2 level.
Which is another unsubstantiated claim.
That's a likely interpretation. I'm just saying there's a non-zero chance it's also related to AP, especially as it's consistent with other Bijuu level scaling for Minato.
Which doesn't matter. There's a chance that Hidan is Bijuu level, too. Same with practically half the cast if you really wanna argue it. But we try to use the most likely and consistent interpretations.
Jiraiya said everyone paled in comparison to Minato. You could take that as hyperbole, but it is supporting evidence for High 7-A+ Minato, and at the very least that statement likely extends to Jiraiya himself.
Well, Minato does scale above Jiraiya via scaling above Hiruzen and Orochimaru, so that covers that I suppose. But we're not going to use a statement like that without further context.
Not really.
It makes much more sense for them to have been amping him until he lost them, as him being several to possibly more than 10x stronger than Edo Madara is severely inconsistent with all the statements about Edos being almost as strong. This also included Hashirama as Tobirama said THEY were nearly brought back at full power, and Edo Madara stalemated Edo Hashirama. Unless Edo Hashirama is also far weaker than his Alive self and that statement is full of shit, then ADR Madara is the one who broke out of the Deity Gates.
That statement is full of shit, to an extent. They were "close" to their original strength, relatively speaking, but they were still weaker as Madara and Hashirama later confirmed. They were sure as hell way closer than their previous Edo Tensei revival, so that's probably what Tobirama was referring to. Also, the 10x thing is irrelevant right now until the multiplier is accepted, and it's not like Madara has anti-feats anyway. He pretty much stomped Tobirama.
Sure, but it implies they fought in cqc, and it's in line with this statement
"Strength" here could literally be referring to any number of things. Strength with their Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, or both, and it could be referring to base or SM Hashirama. It's too vague for you to extrapolate anything from it. And it sure as hell doesn't say "Madara is capable of trading blows with Sage Hashirama" or "They physically clashed after Hashirama put the Kyuubi to sleep."
I'm saying the battle was so intense he was using chakra up faster than it was regenerating. We know Edos take at least some time to regain chakra, given that Minato couldnt use FTG after being drained by the god tree.
Yes, and I'm saying this is worthless because you didn't provide actual proof that Madara was in fact weakened in any way.
I'm saying that version of Sick Itachi would scale above Obito given the statements.
No, he wouldn't. The statements mention nothing about AP. Hell, the "I would've died" statement is literally referring to Amaterasu lol. There's no avenue for Itachi to scale to Obito physically, and vice versa.
I already said I don't have the novel. If you can bring the quotes, go ahead and do so.
It was stated to be a rapid increase though, especially because of how major an amp killing his whole clan would be. It's most likely a large difference, and it's unquantifiable, so I don't think Shisui downscaling makes much sense.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand it's still completely unquantifiable.
It doesn't include the statements I sent.
I don't believe they are necessary. The scans already attached to his profile already convey the idea that Minato thought him to be a threat adequately. I don't think it's needed to scale him to some vague level of "Nine-Tails' power". If we knew what level Minato was referring to, then it'd be pretty solid, but we kinda don't. And I really don't want people to extrapolate that Orange Mask Obito is, like, Kurama level or something.
If you have a good way of wording it that wouldn't add confusion though, then I don't mind.
Idk he seemed pretty concerned
Not really. He's just inquiring about the technique. He doesn't even look shocked tbf, let alone scared. This is certainly not solid proof that he was weaker than Sasuke or that he got stronger.
Plus the fact that it no diff tanked all their attacks further implies Gaara was weaker than it substantially.
Gaara used an extremely small quantity of sand in said attack, he wasn't exactly going all out with that attack, and even if he was, that's just a feat for Sasuke rather than an anti-feat for Gaara.
I mean them being Edo didn't stop them from getting sealed. Also I'm not saying Kimimaro and Chiyo should be High 7-A, just that their fight with KCM Naruto should be mentioned to some extent on their profile.
No, it shouldn't. It's irrelevant given the complete lack of details on it. It's irrelevant information that will only confuse people and lead to stupid CRTs in the future about "wHy DoEsN't ChIyO aNd KiMiMaRo ScAlE tO High 7-A?".
Sure. Even if you only say base Ay is 9.93 megatons (which doesn't make much sense since Ay~One Guruguru hand~>Yamato's Mokuton~4T Naruto>>>>Base Naruto~9.33 Gigatons), since it's the Several Hundred Hands statue, and several means 3 or more, 9.93 megatons x 300 = 2.979 Gigatons = High 7-A+.
First of all, it scales to 33 megatons, like Hiruzen.
Second of all, that's not how it works lmao. We don't stack potency based on how many limbs you have LOL. Otherwise Hashirama's Shinsu Senju would've been High 6-B or something.
Is that V2? His hair looks raised but then later he said he'd up his speed and thus the power to break Madara's guard.
He said he needed to up his speed, yes, but he was in V2. V2 isn't alway operating at full power necessarily, as we saw in his clash with B's Lariat. He was in V2, but clearly holding back because after the clash he actually went full power to go after Naruto, which was noted by B himself.
There's also the possibility that A was just saying he needed more speed in general to break through Madara's guard, not that he was capable of going faster, which would kind of make sense because he didn't try going after Madara again without Onoki enhancing his speed, so yeah.
That makes 7-B Minato even more absurd. How is a partial transformation weaker than a small amount of globby chakra of the Bijuu? There are at least arguments for V2>PT even if shaky, but there's literally nothing to suggest V1 is stronger than this.
V1 is: not very focused/concentrated, much smaller, in a less complete state, has worse feats, doesn't have any statements or implications to suggest it being superior, etc.
The same goes for PT. It also has no feats or statements that would put it above.
And no, I'd argue that enhancing all of your physicals with raw chakra would offer a much bigger amp than making a tentacle.
I thought WA Bijuu are considered stronger?
No.
Eh maybe I won't if you're so certain.
Ehhh, it won't hurt to try. I'm just telling you not to get your hopes up.
True, just seems weird for that to be in his AP justification
How is his strength literally varying and changing not important to note on his AP section?
Who says it's an inferior amp? Seems like headcanon. It's actually a huge amp given that it allowed BZ Obito to fight KCM2 Minato and Kakashi which Obito by himself probably wouldn't be able to do (I mean if you ask me Base Minato would solo, but even with a normie mindset I think KCM2 Minato>Rinnegan Obito isn't a very hot take), especially while weakened.
I was talking about the Biju he absorbed being an inferior amp to the Biju within Madara.
That said, it's not like we have on-screen feats of him actually fighting KCM2 Minato anyway, so... (And also, like, wouldn't this make base Minato = KCM2 Minato lol? Do I need to point out why this is stupid?)
Plus Obito even without SPC tagging Juubidara (even if offguard) contributes to the idea that he's at least relative to Rinnegan SM Madara.
The first feat isn't even an AP feat. It's chakra arm shenanigans, which can go intangible and stuff. The second one doesn't really matter because it was after his Biju amp.
I'm saying if Kabuto was talking about Prime Hiruzen, he would've said, "We took him him on fully knowing his reputation as the strongest Hokage."
"Woulda, coulda, shoulda", and once again it doesn't matter, and doesn't change anything about what I said.
Since Orochimaru knows 59 yr old Hiruzen is stronger than him Prime Hiruzen would be even worse, so it wouldn't make sense for Kabuto to refer to Hiruzen's prime strength. Because they didn't take him on with his prime strength in mind, they took him on with his old age in mind.
Yes, and even if the statement applied to 59 year old Hiruzen, it still wouldn't apply to his 69 year old self because he is confirmed to be weaker, so this is irrelevant.
Also I realized I didn't respond to your reply about Ay's statement regarding Minato. There are multiple published translations, so idk about official but I know now the site only accepts viz for some reason. Anyways, even the viz translation is still referring to strength. It's just less clear. Because Ay saying Minato is the finest shinobi directly pits Minato above every other ninja Ay knows in power, as power is what he values first and foremost in a shinobi
A values strength, yes, but he never admits inferiority to Minato in any way except speed. The databook also compares their speed and reflexes, but never their power. Not once. Such vague statements should be taken with a grain of salt.
Plus a statement following this proves Ay was talking about power.
"A noble man. A finer shinobi never lived...But even so, with all his
power, why do you think he is not here today to help stop this crisis?" Him talking about Minato's character is unrelated to him saying a finer shinobi never lived.
Him saying that Minato had great power, does not mean that he's admitting inferiority to him. "Finer shinobi" could mean so many things it's not even funny. Hashirama called Itachi a better shinobi than him, does that mean Itachi should scale above Hashirama now?
Also this isn't that important but in Generations a tiny fragment of Minato's chakra was able to casually catch Naruto's punch (you could say them in his head doesn't matter or Naruto wasn't going all out but you know just a little extra)
It's really irrelevant, and would kinda contradict the manga since he took the punch in the manga.
Also if you're massively inferior to someone, you can't trap them with RDS, yet Minato was able to seal Kurama, and it wasn't even that hard.
You could use this for Tier 6 scaling, but I'll just say for now that a 7-B would not be able to replicate this feat.
Yeah, no.
We're not scaling Minato to Kurama lol, get outta here.
So yeah, I repeat. Minato =/= 7-B, not in a million years.
Well, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree then.
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