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Sealing Away Naruto's 5-B in a Chibaku Tensei

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So comparable in stats to OG Shin okay? Also why not make a profile/tab on the Shin character page for them?

So why couldn't someone comparable to OG Shin manage to hurt a Naruto who wasn't using a chakra cloak who only grabbed the blade when their MS were active and proceeded to call out they stronger then OG Shin?
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Lack of reading comprehension strikes again. I never proposed for these Shins to physically scale. I proposed for Shin's MS controlled weapons to scale.
 
Noone made a claim of him having a chakra cloak surrounding his body at all times but hey lets use that logic for the next bit you said.

Sasuke doesn't have a chakra cloak surrounding his body at all times when he threw himself onto his daughter to protect her and it's not like he stated that he was lacking on the chakra and eye powers.

No but in fights he uses chakra to amp his durability, unlike when Shin was just lying there. Also not sure what your point is with the last thing, I already mentioned that and used Borushiki to substantiate that Nerfed Sasuke should still be Six Paths level.
 
No but in fights he uses chakra to amp his durability, unlike when Shin was just lying there. Also not sure what your point is with the last thing, I already mentioned that and used
Mind showing when and were he amps him durability and why shin doesn't?
Borushiki to substantiate that Nerfed Sasuke should still be Six Paths level.
Borushiki was worried about absorbing chakra iirc and that was it.
 
Would you expect anything else?
Good point.
Why would MS control weapons scale when they couldn't do shit in the first place and had to off-guard Naruto?
One of them literally stabbed Naruto? That's the whole reason this debate is even taking place lmao. Naruto being off-guard is something I already addressed.
 
Well shit I'll also use the fatigued too since guess what Sasuke was during the fight before that?
Cool . You are still missing the injured part.

Like really you're trying to compare shin that just finished battling and took damage from sakura and almost one shotted by perfect susanoo , barely escaping for his live and so severely injured he couldn't move and battle again. You're comparing that to naruto and sasuke?
 
So like off guard makes the shining orange chakra around naruto protecting him turn to paint or wall level?
Well, I would be more convinced if this didn't happen 2 pages beforehand, which conveniently is ignored but hey Shin's MS ability can't pierce Naruto's chakra head thing but magically can scale when Sasuke inside with Naruto allows Shin to surprise/off-guard him.
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So how does Shin manage to contend in the first place with MS controlled weapons? Why don't you make a guess?
 
Well, I would be more convinced if this didn't happen 2 pages beforehand, which conveniently is ignored but hey Shin's MS ability can't pierce Naruto's chakra head thing but magically can scale when Sasuke inside with Naruto allows Shin to surprise/off-guard him.
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You do realize the Kurama Avatar scales above Naruto's physicals, right? And he's used it as a forcefield to protect himself against attacks from comparable opponents many times in the past.
 
Well, I would be more convinced if this didn't happen 2 pages beforehand, which conveniently is ignored but hey Shin's MS ability can't pierce Naruto's chakra head thing but magically can scale when Sasuke inside with Naruto allows Shin to surprise/off-guard him.
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Or? Hear me out, naruto avatar form has higher durability than just his cloak form? Makes sense right? It's like also on his profile "higher with kurama avatar"
 
Well, I would be more convinced if this didn't happen 2 pages beforehand, which conveniently is ignored but hey Shin's MS ability can't pierce Naruto's chakra head thing but magically can scale when Sasuke inside with Naruto allows Shin to surprise/off-guard him.
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So how does Shin manage to contend in the first place with MS controlled weapons? Why don't you make a guess?
Kurama Avatar > Chakra Cloak
 
Well, I would be more convinced if this didn't happen 2 pages beforehand, which conveniently is ignored but hey Shin's MS ability can't pierce Naruto's chakra head thing but magically can scale when Sasuke inside with Naruto allows Shin to surprise/off-guard him.
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So how does Shin manage to contend in the first place with MS controlled weapons? Why don't you make a guess?
Sasuke needed Susano'o to fight the Kurama Avatar, so he must not be able to fight KM Naruto.
 
Mind showing when and were he amps him durability and why shin doesn't?
Uh...This isn't something specific to Sasuke, it's part of all ninja that's literally where their ultra high durability comes from...In the novel it's referred to as battle spirit.
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Borushiki was worried about absorbing chakra iirc and that was it.
No. Sasuke:
  • Knocked Borushiki away
  • Hurt him with Chidori
  • Made Borushiki admit a head on fight would be difficult and result in him receiving damage
  • Withstood Vanishing Rasengan
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Uh...This isn't something specific to Sasuke, it's part of all ninja that's literally where their ultra high durability comes from...In the novel it's referred to as battle spirit.
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You kinda implied it with this.
No but in fights he uses chakra to amp his durability, unlike when Shin was just lying there.
No. Sasuke:
  • Knocked Borushiki away
  • Hurt him with Chidori
  • Made Borushiki admit a head on fight would be difficult and result in him receiving damage
  • Withstood Vanishing Rasengan
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So hurting/matching a dude who's already fatigued/tired/almost out of chakra means scaling to a 100% version of them?
 
You kinda implied it with this.
Cause Shin is not actively fighting
So hurting/matching a dude who's already fatigued/tired/almost out of chakra means scaling to a 100% version of them?
Literally the opposite??? My point is that Shin can fight 3T Fatigued Rinnegan Sasuke who's >Base/3T Injured Fatigued No Rinnegan Sasuke who can fight Borushiki. AKA Shin scales on some level to Borushiki (though idt that Borushiki is as strong as the one that fought Kawaki and Code, he should still be exceptionally powerful given that it's literally Momoshiki taking over Boruto).
 
Ngl this thread entirely lost my interest went on too long, so when the debating is done if someone wants to summarized what needs to be changed I’ll update the sandbox, have it checked over one last time and apply it
 
Cause Shin is not actively fighting
Also where is the scan from and what is battle spirit? Does it ever get explained what it is and is there every a scene of Sasuke using it? Cause reading the scan again it doesn't say what battle spirit is and it only mentions Kakashi using it so why are we giving it to Sasuke?
Literally the opposite??? My point is that Shin can fight 3T Fatigued Rinnegan Sasuke who's >Base/3T Injured Fatigued No Rinnegan Sasuke who can fight Borushiki. AKA Shin scales on some level to Borushiki (though idt that Borushiki is as strong as the one that fought Kawaki and Code, he should still be exceptionally powerful given that it's literally Momoshiki taking over Boruto).
So 3T Fatigued Rinnegan Sasuke = 100% Sasuke?
Ngl this thread entirely lost my interest went on too long, so when the debating is done if someone wants to summarized what needs to be changed I’ll update the sandbox, have it checked over one last time and apply it
Yeah sure I'm fine with dropping the disagreement on Shin, UsseySlayer can summarize or someone else can cause I got no clue on what needs to be summarized, minus the Shika stuff
 
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Ok since the thread is closing up imma just makes some last comments.

Not necessarily a disagreement, just something I wanna get clarification on. Why is the Asura Avatar a 3x amp when it's literally Naruto splitting his chakra into 3 equal pieces than putting those pieces back together? I get that it's portrayed as far stronger than the Base KA, but that might just be more due to the nature energy than the Avatars combining.
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Was there a discussion about the greatest ninjutsu of all time statement for Super Bijuu Rasenshuriken?

Why is Ancient Kaguya assumed to be as strong as WA Kaguya? And even if she is, idk about Hagoromo and Hamura scaling directly to her value when it took them months to defeat her as a duo. Scaling to half as a conservative estimate seems safer, and more in line with Pre-God Tree Juubidara<~Hagoromo, which has no real reason to exclude him as a Juubi Jin (as for the Polar Particles, you could argue that that wasn't thought of at the time or that Ancient Kaguya is just pure ass).

I'm not sure Kawaki fought TE Boruto. He doesn't have the Byakugan and the facial markings are different.
 
Not necessarily a disagreement, just something I wanna get clarification on. Why is the Asura Avatar a 3x amp when it's literally Naruto splitting his chakra into 3 equal pieces than putting those pieces back together? I get that it's portrayed as far stronger than the Base KA, but that might just be more due to the nature energy than the Avatars combining.
Each KA clone is relative to the original in AP (much like how Nard's regular clones are comparable to him in AP), so I guess fusion logic still applies? It's not like each KA avatar that's fused is just 1/3rd as powerful as the original.
 
Not necessarily a disagreement, just something I wanna get clarification on. Why is the Asura Avatar a 3x amp when it's literally Naruto splitting his chakra into 3 equal pieces than putting those pieces back together? I get that it's portrayed as far stronger than the Base KA, but that might just be more due to the nature energy than the Avatars combining.
It's because each clone is physically identical to the original. So while the Asura Avatar (without NE) has the same amount of chakra as the original KA, the logic here is that it's physically 3x as strong as the fusion of 3 physically comparable entities. That's what Arc had in mind, more or less IIRC.
 
But chakra is where its strength comes from? Not sure how that'd work. And yeah I get the logic, but it's operating under the assumption that clones are equal to the original, which isn't necessarily true, and is suggested otherwise by Kakashi's statement in that last panel. We also know that clones nerf the user.
 
But chakra is where its strength comes from? Not sure how that'd work. And yeah I get the logic, but it's operating under the assumption that clones are equal to the original, which isn't necessarily true, and is suggested otherwise by Kakashi's statement in that last panel. We also know that clones nerf the user.
Those are wood clones, which consume way more Chakra, and Madara has a lower maximum than Naruto.
 
Not really for Hashirama? The only time he's shown fatigue after using Wood Style was when he used Shinsuu Senju, which is GARGANTUALLY more chakra consuming than just making a few Wood Clones.
I was speaking in comparison to Shadow Clones.
 
I was speaking in comparison to Shadow Clones.
You'd think shadow clones would be worse for the user while the shadow clones are active since those actually split your chakra in equal pieces with your own, meaning that for example when you have 2 clones active, you only have a third of your normal chakra supply to work with, but with the Hashirama Wood Clones example, they don't have as much chakra and a majority of it was concentrated in Hashirama's real body, yet the jutsu STILL weakened his real body.
 
You'd think shadow clones would be worse for the user while the shadow clones are active since those actually split your chakra in equal pieces with your own, meaning that for example when you have 2 clones active, you only have a third of your normal chakra supply to work with, but with the Hashirama Wood Clones example, they don't have as much chakra and a majority of it was concentrated in Hashirama's real body, yet the jutsu STILL weakened his real body.
I keep forgetting Hashirama was just goated at everything except Genjutsu.
 
Does someone want to make a list of all the things Slayer suggested to change and other staff can be like yay or nay
 
Does someone want to make a list of all the things Slayer suggested to change and other staff can be like yay or nay
I'll try.


These are Post 411 and 424.

UsseySlayers stuff

Okay, so I've held this up long enough, so I'll try to address what I wanna address real quick. I don't think I'll get to everything right now 'cause I'm really short on time atm, but this should address most things.

Moon level (Performs better against Fused Momoshiki than Sasuke[14][15] or Darui, and while Naruto is ultimately overpowered, this still suggests is base level of power is comparable to people like Sasuke and Darui[Statistics Values 16])
I'm not really sure this comparison works, with Sasuke and base Naruto I mean. Sasuke failed to harm Fused Momo in that instance, but it's not like Naruto managed to do so either. He just matched his AP. It works well enough to say that this makes base Naruto superior to Darui, though, since Momo's AP wrecked his ass. But Sasuke didn't interact with Momo in terms of AP here, so I don't find this justification the best. I think you should just mention that he briefly matched Momoshiki, which makes him superior to Darui.
Moon level+ with Rasengan Variants (Naruto can utilize Rasengan Barrage and other powerful Rasengan variants in tandem with Kurama Six Paths Sage Mode to boost his power over 2x[Statistics Values 19])
I feel like it'd be worth mentioning here that his Chō Ōdama Rasengan was able to one-shot both Fused Momoshiki and Delta.
Question. Are you sort of including the Kurama Avatar with "Kurama Six Paths Sage Mode"? If so, then I think you should include the fact that it's considered Naruto's full power somewhere. It's also the main reason for him scaling above the 2x Rasengan variant stuff. That's not super relevant for Adult Nard since he scales to 2x his base via Fused Momo scaling regardless, but it's a nice piece of support, and could be relevant for Naruto's previous versions.
So we can either add a "higher with Kurama Avatar", or just include this bit into the above jutsification.
At least Island level (Stronger than before[Statistics Values 1])
So, sorry, I know this ain't New Era, but I do have an argument I want to share for base Sasuke.
Basically, I want to propose that he's rated as "At least 6-C, likely 5-C" for him. "possibly 5-C" or "at most 5-C" would work, too. Whichever ya'll think works best ig.

So, the argument is just simply the fact that Sasuke received a flat chakra amp from Hagoromo. Basically he got a ton of chakra, and was greatly empowered. We've seen this a million times in the series. Chakra amps such as those never really enhanced one attribute to such a ridiculous degree, without touching the other ones.
I feel like Sage Mode's a good bench mark example, as it amps absolutely everything. Same with the curse mark. Bijuu chakra. Just, any chakra amp I could personally think of doesn't really behave like that for the most part. Now there are techniques that specifically amp certain attributes like shunshin amping speed, Rasengan amping AP, or Iron Spear amping durability. But just regular ass chakra amps turning someone into a brick wall or glass canon? I can't think of too many instances of that happening personally.
Honestly, this alone wouldn't have made me bring this up. What prompted me to make this argument is just the fact that Sasuke was not a brick wall prior to the Six Paths amp, and more importantly, he was definitely not one after receiving it either. We can clearly see that he can harm those capable of harming him. Now, yes, he's greatly weakened here, but it wouldn't make much sense for his durability to drop massively more than his physical strength/AP, certainly not by millions of times or whatever the difference is. Like, it's possible I guess, but it would just be super strange.

I dunno, maybe this is all just me, but it's just what I think atm.
Moon level (Fought Kinshiki[10][11][Statistics Values 9]), higher with Susano'o (As Naruto's equal[12][13][14][15], his avatar state should be equivalent to Naruto's[Statistics Values 10])
Just out of curiosity, is there a reason you didn't include these feats for Sasuke? At the least, I feel like his Kusanagi Blade and Ninjutsu should scale to SPSM Naruto's tier, which would be consistent with both their previous keys, and also their portrayal as rivals overall.

Also, I think the Perfect Susano'o here should get a "far higher", since it scales to the KA, which scales above the 2x RS variants, etc etc.
Okay, so the first bit goes for both Momo and Kin.
I think the first bit of the justification should be modified to something along the lines of:
Sasuke hypothesized, and then confirmed, that Kaguya feared and prepared for the arrival of Momoshiki and Kinshiki, which indicates that they should be comparable to her at the very least.
You can tweak that wording however you like, but the point is that nothing in those scans really confirms or indicates that Kaguya feared these guys individually. All of the statements refer to them as a duo. This also makes more sense with the fact that Adult Naruto and Sasuke still consider Kaguya a formidable opponent, and the whole reason they even considered the duo's arrival a threat was the potential of them being threats to her in the first place.
The current justification implies that they are confirmed to be above her individually, which IMO is not the case.

Also, a couple more things. The feat of him hurting base Naruto and sending him flying is valid, but it should be mentioned that Naruto was caught off-guard here, especially if Sasuke's feats of a similar nature aren't even being used.

Finally, he should get a higher with Ninjutsu as well (when it's amped by chakra pills) since it managed to knock out and incapacitate SPSM Kurama Avatar Naruto. Maybe even a far higher, idk.
Ngl, I'm not seeing at all how Shikamaru implies that Isshiki being stronger than Code is uncertain. Is it just his usage of the word "should"? The thing is, Shikamaru is not an authority on any of these people's powers in the first place. He doesn't know how powerful either of them actually are. The only things he really knows for sure is that Jigen defeated NaruSasu, Isshiki's stronger than Jigen (and also beat NaruSasu), and that Code's power surpasses Jigen's. I don't think he's in any position to be an authority on Isshiki vs Code IMO.

Jigen/Isshiki​

So a couple of things.
Ehhhhh, I'm honestly iffy about this being used to scale Jigen above the MAS. There's no reason to assume Koji even knows about the MAS, and given the fact that Naruto and Sasuke already pushed Jigen to his absolute limit and had moments where they seemed to be genuine threats to him, somewhat survive his attacks, etc, makes me a bit doubtful about Jigen being above the MAS. Much like Shikamaru, Koji isn't an authority on Naruto and Sasuke, and he was mostly hypothesizing here.

Isshiki scaling above the MAS if totally valid, though. I feel like his statements are a bit more solid and straightforward imo.
SS: Moon level (Comparable to his Attack Potency), Moon level+ with Kāma (Comparable to his Attack Potency), Small Planet level with Ōtsutsuki Form (Comparable to his Attack Potency)

Dura: Moon level+ (Took a kick from Post-Polar Particles Kurama Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto[15][Statistics Values 5]), higher with Kāma (Blocks attacks from Kurama Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto and Sasuke), Small Planet level with Ōtsutsuki Form (It's heavily implied that nothing Sasuke or Naruto could do would give them sufficient odds at defeating Jigen's full power[Statistics Values 6])
I think you forgot to give Isshiki SS and Dura sections lmao


The current discourse regarding Shikamaru is one I agree with. I think his AP should be massively downgraded.

I'm a bit pressed for time rn and really tired, so I'll respond to KT later. I'll try to do it tomorrow, but no promises.
I also wanted to talk about Shin, but again, kinda pressed atm. So I'll either talk about him when I address KT, or maybe I'll just save it for that High 6-A thread, we shall see.

Again, overall, great job, Arc.
Tbh, I'm not really too pressed about anything I mentioned above. So if ya'll just wanna move on with this, that's fine with me. This is just meant to be a quick fix for the profiles' values and scaling anyway, and it certainly achieves that and then some. Whatever issues I may personally have, I can just handle later in separate CRTs. I really don't wanna hold this up more than I already have. Really sorry about that btw.

Aight, this is the sequel to yesterday's post.
I can replace Sasuke with Darui here ig.
Sounds great.
I was just trying not to overclutter the profile, hence I really only included his multipliers, but if you wanna edit that into the sandbox sure.
Clutter is kinda unavoidable with Nard, dude has a lot going on no matter what. I think this bit's pretty relevant tho. Him being to one-shot physical rivals with an attack is a big deal imo.
Won't be able to make edits anytime soon, but if you don't mind waiting, I can do it later.
So you agree with adding that bit to the justification...?
Ngl idrc care, it's up to others, if you wanna type out the on profile justification for it sure.
Same thing as above, I can do it, just not now.
First, knocking some around without dealing damage is lifting strength not AP. Second, all the Jigen stuff is like Sasuke off guarding him and dealing 0 damage. Hence they weren't included.
It honestly feels like you skimmed through that album I sent. It has more examples than him sending others flying, as others like Sparkle and Lightning have mentioned earlier. Sasuke has a lot of higher end portrayal and feats.
Hence why I said he posits it, I'm not claiming it's word of god. Nevertheless there can be some potential narrative intent there, as the way Ikemoto provides information to the reader is through dialogue. Regardless it doesn't affect his rating so idc if it gets deleted or not.
Okay, sure, but I don't agree with your conclusion regarding the "intent" there either. I don't think the point of that piece of dialogue was to throw doubt regarding Isshiki's superiority to Code, I think the intent is to reinforce that idea if nothing else.
Given Koji gets his information from Amado, and Amado would logically be aware of their capabilities through research. I think it's fine.
Meh, I don't fully agree, but tbh I don't care enough about this rn to debate it further.
Naw the scans are in the AP section, too lazy to double post scans.
No, Arc. Like, Isshiki doesn't have a SS and durability section AT ALL, lol.

Also, speaking of Jigen/Isshiki...
These bits belong in the P&A section if I'm not mistaken. I think it was decided a while back that Dura Neg and Immortality/Regen stuff should no longer be put in the AP or Dura sections anymore.
likely Moon level+ with Sage Mode (Koji believes he can combat Delta[5] and briefly fought with Isshiki, albeit ultimately lost[6]. This should imply that Koji's peak strength is likely around the level of other powerful cyborgs like Delta, which is consistent with the fact that Amado created Koji to take down Jigen[7][Statistics Values 2])
Tbh, I still disagree with Koji scaling this high, for essentially the same reasons that were brought up in the last Koji thread by Nierre and others, but it's whatever. If everyone's okay with it, I can live with it for now.
Regarding Shin using his MS ability to have Sasuke's sword stab through SPSM KCM Naruto, I'm not entirely sure this works.
Firstly, regarding Kurama's statement, it was only about Naruto's battle senses being dulled through inactivity. He's basically saying he should've seen that attack coming. That really shouldn't have any impact on Naruto's durability or AP, especially not one that's mainly facilitated through Kurama's chakra cloak and SPSM.

Secondly, Naruto being off-guard here shouldn't matter in my opinion. KCM essentially puts armor around Naruto in the form of a chakra cloak, him being on or off-guard shouldn't really impact the cloak's durability, and it never has to my knowledge. These cloaks have also been shown to be pretty resistant to cutting and piercing attacks many times, even when people were somewhat caught off-guard. The same thing could be said for Sage Mode. There's more examples I can bring up, but I'm lazy, and I'm sure you get my point by now.

So yeah, I still think Shin should scale with his MS controlled weapons. We can discuss how that affects Sakura later.

But yeah, I think this is pretty much everything I wanted to say regarding the Sandbox.
 
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