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SCP-2117 vs. Whis

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@Dargoo Black Holes sorta depend on which theory you follow. It could be considered being displaced from time, being transformed into raw information, or, ultimately, death.

(thank you in a nutshell)
 
Yep. Good way to feed the old noggin while lazing about contributing nothing to society. Woohoo.
 
I mean, getting turned into information and time displacement are things Whis wouldn't be able to come back from.
 
Yes. But, again, it really just depends on what you believe a black hole does since... well, nobody really knows. We just have a whole bunch of theories. I think another one was that anything that enters is stretched into infinity, and that was the basis for a power supply from black holes, that we could feasibly project light as energy and bounce it around via mirrors, thus making nigh-infinite energy.

Weird stuff. Throw a dart and pick your poison, I suppose.
 
"

"Isn't the afterlife a pocket dimension, with its own time? The Rewind wouldn't be able to return him to the real world.

Plus he's never used the rewind that way."

No to the first. Whis' Rewind is able to affect both Times, as seen with the Gowasu and shortly following, the Beerus' first Hakai scene.

Whis at that point with Beerus, Supreme Kai and Goku were all out in open space and outside of the Realm of the Kais, which would include the afterlife cluster (Which is always portrayed as a cloudy and yellow-orange place, not open space).

Even after Gowasu died, Whis' rewind was still able to effect him. So yes, Whis' rewind is able to bring himself back if he died.

Yes he used Rewind in that way. The whole Gowasu debacle. Also used several times to "Do-Over" something if Beerus causes TOO MUCH Destruction. If Whis couldn't role back lives then what's the point?

Oh and Whis rewinding time so that Vegeta never died. That's a good example too.

And are you saying Whis never used Rewind to revive himself? That would be implying he's actually fully died before. Which is likely never since not even Jiren can kill an Angel, and he's quote "The strongest opponent Goku has ever faced".

"2117 also resists Space-Time attacks, so IDK if the rewind would affect it."

Why would Whis need Rewind to effect 2117? Whis is using Rewind to prevent HIS Death from ever occuring, why would 2117 be a factor? Sure 2117 might just look around and go "Wtf why is everything turning back" but the actual event that would've killed Whis would've never happened as everything else is reset backwards. And even if all else fails and 2117 flat out isn't effected period, Whis himself is still rewinded so he'd be moved back to 3 minutes prior while 2117 is... just floating there. being the spaceship weapon that it is, it'll likely try to do the same attack on Whis which would be what Whis would be expecting by then.
 
Well shoot, that's what I get for not knowing much about DBS, lol.

I suppose it's down to how we accept realistic Black Holes to function in battles, then.
 
Has Whis ever used it that way on himself, though? Reverting destruction, sure, that's a big part of his role, watching over Purple-Cat-Boi, yes? But has he himself ever been laid to waste and at that point was he able to simply "loltimereverse" out of the situation?

The rest of your points are fine, but you don't mention him using it for himself.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
Has Whis ever used it that way on himself, though? Reverting destruction, sure, that's a big part of his role, watching over Purple-Cat-Boi, yes? But has he himself ever been laid to waste and at that point was he able to simply "loltimereverse" out of the situation?
The rest of your points are fine, but you don't mention him using it for himself.
Click to expand...
Whis is shown to also be visibly effected by Time Rewind, travelling backwards with everyone else in the Gowasu scene. So yes, he's affected and logically should be able to use it on himself. Also, again, he would've never had the chance to try it on himself to resurrect since- actually no. Whis can travel between the Dragon Ball Macrocosms and can resurrect people whenever he wants with a boop of his staff, he wouldn't need a temporal do-over. lol
 
I meant in reaction to his own harm/demise.
 
When is it shown that Whis himself gets affected by the rewind?

From the looks of it, it looks like he's rewinding time around him, and there is a bubble around him exempt from this.

That put, how long would it take for Whis to escape from the afterlife?
 
Theres no finite distance between afterlife and mortal realm. We also dont know as Whis never went to the afterlife directly, however he visited King Kai's planet in the afterlife in roughly 12 minutes from Beerus' Palace. Assuming Beerus' palace is in the mortal realm, it at most takes him tens of minutes to travel universes. Nowhere near enough for a BFR.

"From the looks of it, it looks like he's rewinding time around him, and there is a bubble around him exempt from this"

Whis' position was also reset to where he was on earth prior to its destruction in Revival of F. Also no, in the Gowasu case, Goku and all the passengers were visibly effected as well, with Goku questioning what just happened to them. Supreme Kai and Goku would've never reacted in that way if they were exempt and reacting in real time.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
I meant in reaction to his own harm/demise.
Click to expand...
I think you're completing ignoring the fact that no known villain as of yet comes anywhere near Whis in power. He literally has not gotten the chance to even get scratched in a serious fight, let alone get killed.
 
So we don't know if he can just resurrect himself.
 
I think you're completing ignoring the fact that no known villain as of yet comes anywhere near Whis in power. He literally has not gotten the chance to even get scratched in a serious fight, let alone get killed.

I mean, that's just textbook NLF.

While we can certainly say Whis is stronger than any known villain, we can't give him abilities he has never demonstrated or make up new applications of his abilities just because he demonstrated superiority.

Also, while his position changes, his body doesn't, and time is clearly not rewinding for him or those in his "bubble".

I don't understand why self resurrection isn't on every DBS top tier, then, if they can just waltz out of the afterlife. Since it isn't on or is implied on Whis's profile, I'm not going to go under the assumption he can self resurrect.
 
That, basically, was my point lol.
 
Whis casually tank the blast, as he is on a way higher scaling than 2117, and realzing that he can't .destroy it, he BFRs it in a dimension not even Goku with his IT or possible portal creation via vice shot can get out
 
2117 can call for allies from other universes lol. It can come back.

I'm voting 2117 here, via duplication and overwhelming Whis. Even with the mass AP advantage, Whis isn't going to be taking on all of them at once.
 
It can't come back because even Goku could do that and guess what? He could not get out of Whis dimension. Even when he was able to move

And yes, he can. Given all of them are only 5-A and whis would need to just glare at them to wipe them all out and then BFR
 
"Only 5-A"

Did... did you read the profile?
 
Baseline in the way that they overpowered a baseline Low 2-C, as in, a being using the big bang's energy as it was creating all of time and space. They pretty much made this being helpless.

The Solidarity punched through spatial manipulations and all that to kill this being that was pretty helplessly running away. It can travel between dimensions and, on Whis' profile (which I did read), it doesn't say "lol this bfr is so good nobody can surpass it".

2117, mid-diff. A few harmes of cat women might be slain (what did I just say) but I don't see a way for Whis to conclusively win. Even while passively dodging attacks.
 
I think you're completing ignoring the fact that no known villain as of yet comes anywhere near Whis in power. He literally has not gotten the chance to even get scratched in a serious fight, let alone get killed.

I mean, that's just textbook NLF.

While we can certainly say Whis is stronger than any known villain, we can't give him abilities he has never demonstrated or make up new applications of his abilities just because he demonstrated superiority.

Also, while his position changes, his body doesn't, and time is clearly not rewinding for him or those in his "bubble".

I don't understand why self resurrection isn't on every DBS top tier, then, if they can just waltz out of the afterlife. Since it isn't on or is implied on Whis's profile, I'm not going to go under the assumption he can self resurrect.

Whats a NLF? the hell are you arguing? The very fact that his position changed means his physical body was affected. If the bubble made him exempt then nothing about him would change period, including position.

Im not making anything up. What? Hes repeatedly brought people back to life with time rewind, why the hell would he be an exception? Also yes. Time does change for those in his bubble. You're ignoring the Gowasu case AND the Revival of F case where everyone's position is reset back to Earth. You're arguing that position changes while they themselves dont, which makes no logical sense whatsoever. You cant just say one aspect of them is reminded while cherry picking everything else.

In this case, im pretty sure the burden of proof is on you to disprove my arguments as I have brought up two solid cases of this happening.

He literaly pointed at Freeza and pop went his Halo. How blatant can you get? Its not a feat using pure power like what you're implying, but an ability the angels have.

Also youre nitpicking AF right now. He has resurrection, which Self-Resurrection is a subpower of. The burden of proof to say that he CANT use it on himself is purely on you.
 
So let me explain

2117 (one shot) > Baseline Low 2-C

Whis (casual one shot) > Beerus > Suppressed Jiren > Infinite Zamasu > Baseline Low 2-C

Yeah... WHis has the scaling AND the AP advantage by a low shot. Again, he can simply BFR them all as he did not see an immortal living universe to be a problem and that they could just seal it up
 
This isn't nitpicking. You're extrapolating that any being that can resurrect can self-resurrect. They can't. Sub-powers are not intrinsic to people who have the general power, just more specific versions.

NLF is NLF.

Side note, no, the burden of proof is on the person trying to extrapolate data lol. You are making the claim that he CAN resurrect himself, prove it, or drop the point.

Read it and weep. Oddly enough, the example is even Dragon Ball related, so that's a thing.
 
Yeah. Whis has AP advantage. But he is effectively fighting hundreds of ships that can all harm him.
 
You're favouring one side over another. Again, he has an immensely casual feat of pointing a staff at a dead person and instantly making them alive. Literally nothing says he cant point at himself and do the same. And why wouldnt the Angel's be able to? If an Angel dies stupidly and can't go back to the mortal realm, that'd leave the GoDs they attend to reign free. And if they die stupidly without the Angel to protect them, the angel goes dormant.

Burden of proof is on YOU to prove that The Angel's CANNOT self resurrect using the same method. Which is targeted btw. As in, he can point at himself.

Edit: you're just being incredibly disrespectful now. I read it, and I'm not weeping. You're flat out ignoring a power Whis has that is by no stretch of the imagination limited to only others; you have to disprove me by providing evidence he CANNOT use it via self targeting.

It's like saying a magic caster that retains their spells after death cannot point their staff back in their face once in the afterlife and cast the same spell they used to bring back their tank for the 100th time
 
Akreious said:
You're favouring one side over another. Again, he has an immensely casual feat of pointing a staff at a dead person and instantly making them alive. Literally nothing says he cant point at himself and do the same. And why wouldnt the Angel's be able to? If an Angel dies stupidly and can't go back to the mortal realm, that'd leave the GoDs they attend to reign free. And if they die stupidly without the Angel to protect them, the angel goes dormant.
Burden of proof is on YOU to prove that The Angel's CANNOT self resurrect using the same method. Which is targeted btw. As in, he can point at himself.
Click to expand...
And likely the 'going dormant' is a mistranslation. It's likely that by going inactive it means he is not allowed to fight further, given Angels are meant to be neutral
 
True. The effect is the same though; its dumb for an Angel to be incapable of coming back, leaving literally everything at risk. The GoD, the mortal realm, everything.
 
Akreious said:
You're favouring one side over another. Again, he has an immensely casual feat of pointing a staff at a dead person and instantly making them alive. Literally nothing says he cant point at himself and do the same. And why wouldnt the Angel's be able to? If an Angel dies stupidly and can't go back to the mortal realm, that'd leave the GoDs they attend to reign free. And if they die stupidly without the Angel to protect them, the angel goes dormant.
Burden of proof is on YOU to prove that The Angel's CANNOT self resurrect using the same method. Which is targeted btw. As in, he can point at himself.
Click to expand...
I'm gonna stop you there. You're wrong on all counts.

1. I read a small portion of 2117 once, when Weekly was asking for calcs. I'm no longer familiar with SCP and frankly I didn't like the story anyways. My point being, I'm not biased. I couldn't tell you the names of any singular character from this story, aside from I remember one being Wizard.

2. Burden of proof is on you, read the page dude. Stop trying to get us to do your job as a debater.

3. "Literally nothing" except being dead. You're also abusing a whole metric crap ton of fallacies right now, ranging from attacking the debater rather than the debate ("ur biased") and Appeal to Motive (also "ur biased")

So no. You are wrong. I want you to carefully come up with a viable argument for Whis, and I will hear it, and decide if that is enough to convince me to vote for Whis. But just shouting that everyone else is wrong is not going to win you any arguments.
 
Xantospoc said:
No, none of them can harm him. They can like do chip damage to him
Click to expand...
They are both an unquantifiable amount above baseline Low 2-C, and are both weak enough to still be considered Low 2-C.

2117 can harm him lol.
 
Let's see the holes in that argument...

You're saying Whis is exempt from his own time rewind so he cant come back (and if he has control of the bubble, why can't he just undo the exemptions?), you're saying whis is unable to point his staff in the opposite direction and do the same of what he did to freeza (Which is again, a targeted spell with no limitation that you cant point it at yourself) and cherry picking facts about Whis' Time Rewind. Come on man. But fine I'll make another argument.

Why cant Whis do the same thing? Not swarm the enemy with infinite whis', I mean once whis dies, go back in time to warn his past self on how to win. We know hes capable of time travel like this due to saying that he can warn his past self to seal Zamasu away instead of letting all the events we know unfold. Bam, another source of information whis could use.

Also we know that people of sufficient status retains their "mortal" bodies so dying wont ar all detach his ability to... use his abilities. And if Goku, the hero of one planet, gets special treatment then the guy who tends to the God of Destruction certainly will.
 
They are both an unquantifiable amount above baseline Low 2-C, and are both weak enough to still be considered Low 2-C.

2117 can harm him lol.

Okay, yeah no. Dude, do you hear yourself? Youre HEAVILY favouring the SCP right now.

All we know is that the SCP > Baseline

We know that whis > MUI Goku > Limit Breaker Jiren > 100% Jiren > Kefla > 2nd UIO Goku > first battle jiren > 1st UIO Goku > Infinite Zamasu (Baseline)

What we KNOW right now is that Whis has a MASSIVE advantage in the amount of scaling there is. We're not going to magically give the 2117 6 more "Superior to X character"s just because they're both Low 2-C.

Also the gap between Low 2-C and 2-C is unquantifiable. Whis can be duiovingintillion times stronger than MUI Goku and still not be 2-C. So the fact that they're both Low 2-C means nothing as this is basically a MFTL+ situation.
 
My argument is that your argument consists of fallacies on fallacies. You're assuming he does things he doesn't do, and expecting us to substantiate those claims. You're also assuming Whis can somehow, while dead, resurrect himself by actively pointing his staff at himself lol.

>Why can't he do the same thing

> Once whis dies

> Is still hinging on the fact that Whis can do something he has never done, and none of his kind have done

Oh boy. And no, we don't know that, care to provide evidence of that? Since we've established that burden of proof, against your wishes, is on you?
 
Sorry. Getting heated due to Bambu completely disregarding the concept of "Benefit of a doubt". I'm honestly seeing him as one of those people that goes "If we dont see it, then it cant happen"
 
Uh, that's not how burden of proof works, bud. I don't have to prove a negative when your only proof for a positive is "well nothing says he CAN'T do it", which is a fallacy in itself.

Honestly you're just adding abilities Whis has never demonstrated now. You lost me at "warning past Whis".

And if it isn't on the profile, you can't support or debate it. Make a CRT and come back later.
 
Benefit of a doubt doesn't exist here. Either they can do it, or they can't. Whis has shown no capacity of self resurrection. Neither has his kin. If it was a case of Vados doing it, I'd believe you. But neither has.

I'm asking you to form a viable argument aside from "cmon let him have it".
 
The fact that we've seen so little from Whis in combat actually makes him weaker, as we can't assume more than what is stated or seen.

Happens with characters all the time. See Saitama and the bazzilion other targets for regular wank.
 
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