SCP-2117 vs. Whis

[Akreious]

snip

You dont know how the afterlife in DB works do you? Dying isnt hampering Whis' ability do anything at all. And the truth is, Whis never got the chance to try it on himself because he never died. You're saying he cant do something before even gets the chance to try it. No angels to date has died yet, so saying he flat out cant is like saying the applications of my pen is writing and only writing, it cant be used as a stabbing weapon. Its never happened yet because i dont want to kill someone, doesnt mean i cant, right?

Also your argument still hinges on the fact that time rewind wont work since hes apparently exempt. Why cant he unexempt himself or why does his position change even though hes supposedly exempt?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I don't see self resurrection on his profile.

And Ak, your argument applies to itself too. You can't assume it works, as we haven't had Whis die before. We must assume the negative instead of racking on a positive when something isn't shown.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Has Whis ever died to substantiate any of this or are you just saying things.

You know what though, you're right. I have never had the chance to manipulate time, I think I'll go do that. Maybe throw in a spot of questionable omnipotence since I guess I never had a chance to do that, too. Who knows, while I'm at it, maybe I'll finally get good at Fortnite make my own universe and block out all the blatant wank. Or maybe we can just use what we have and stop trying to make a character stronger than they are by saying "well they never said they COULDN'T DO IT".

Also, what/see above, extrapolating data.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

And again, you're assuming Whis has a large number of things that aren't on his profile. If you don't agree with it, please make a CRT, as this isn't the right place to debate that.

 

[Akreious]

The fact that we've seen so little from Whis in combat actually makes him weaker, as we can't assume more than what is stated or seen.

Happens with characters all the time. See Saitama and the bazzilion other targets for regular wank.

Its been stated he can resurrect people. Okay, let me make another example. Whis contacts Supreme Kai to go and get Vados. Vados resurrects whis. How is this application any different from Whis just doing it himself by pointing the staff back at himself? We know abilities like instsnt transmission and candybeam still works in the afterlife, why would whis' ability to point and resurrect suddenly be hampered?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

He can resurrect people.

Not himself.

Give me evidence, not assumptions.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Whis is dead in the scenario where he is resurrecting himself lol. That's how it is different. He's dead, he can't point it at himself, what with being dead. He has lost control of motor functions. Ground control the Major Tom, the engines dead, there's something wrong. Etc etc.

If he did it before, or if anyone did it before, that's different. But they didn't. Even if powers work in the after life, you've said they haven't died yet in the show- so we don't know if powers work when dead.

 

[Akreious]

Whis is dead in the scenario where he is resurrecting himself lol. That's how it is different. He's dead, he can't point it at himself, what with being dead. He has lost control of motor functions. Ground control the Major Tom, the engines dead, there's something wrong. Etc etc.

If he did it before, or if anyone did it before, that's different. But they didn't. Even if powers work in the after life, you've said they haven't died yet in the show- so we don't know if powers work when dead.

Yeah you dont know how dragon ball afterlife works. As Whis is a notable person, like Goku, he will retain his physical form in the afterlife. He'd be fully capable of pointing to himself and removing that Halo that means he's dead. There wont be "loss of motor function" in this case.

We know powers that operate with magic and ki both work, why is Whis' ability different? The afterlife has no limitation on what you can and cannot use, saying that Whis magically can't would be imposing limits that the afterlife never had before.

Edit: what I meant was Whis never died yet. Many others died and all their powers work perfectly fine. Goku learned the Spirit Bomb while dead and kaioken, so actually Gaining powers.

Edit edit: oh and whis is actually seen casually walking about the afterlife while alive, and if you die in the afterlife while alive then all you'd get is a halo like with King kai. So, yeah.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

"Notable persons can come back from the dead"

what

I might not know DB, but that should at least be on his profile.

Also assuming Whis can do this, he will eventually try and teleport inside of the ship and get mindwiped. So, eh. He can't physically attack the ship as it uses warped space as shields, so he'd eventually teleport inside to try and harm it.

 

[Akreious]

You completely misinterpreted what I wrote.

Notable persons retain their physical form in the afterlife, as in instead of being a disembodied soul, they'd still retain their form. Like, you can still point at yourself and train and all that. Goku learned Kaioken and Spirit Bomb while dead, so you can still effect yourself even if you dont have a real mortal body.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Just need an example of one person resurrecting themselves in the verse, and that person being comparable to Whis in some way, and we'll be good. Just one.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

So, how would he resurrect himself, then?

He can't apply timehax to himself, we already went over how that wouldn't work.

Solidarity also has multiversal teleportation and tracking systems, they'd just teleport to the afterlife and kill him again.

Again, Whis can't harm it due to space hax shielding, so he tries to teleport in and gets mindwiped. Hopefully that can shorten this argument a bunch.

 

[Wokistan]

I'm pretty sure that verse equalization doesn't mean that whis wont properly die unless he himself has shown just leaving the afterlife. Basically anyone notable in Warhammer would be like that, alongside being possibly 1-B+, if we treated things like that.

 

[Wokistan]

Also I'm not really sure if whis hwhis has a way around the ship being shielded in a way that warps space, and the ship can offensively use that to bypass whis' superior durability.

 

[Akreious]

Why wont time hax work? You literally never actually argued against me on that and just dropped the subject and how suddenly saying "we established it wont".

If Whis' time rewind affected his position, then he isnt exempt from the time rewind. He was effected. If he died and reminded time, he would travel back to the point prior to his death but 2117 wouldnt be effected so actually, any prior damage on 2117 would stay and whis would be no worse for wear.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

"Never actually argued against me"

"And Ak, your argument applies to itself too. You can't assume it works, as we haven't had Whis die before. We must assume the negative instead of racking on a positive when something isn't shown."

Position, yes. Body, no.

I don't see multiversal range on his profile for teleportation or timehax. Assuming everything you say is true, how does he get out of the afterlife?

Which wouldn't apply anyway. See Wok's comment.

 

[Wokistan]

He kinda has to be alive to use his abilities, and there's no real reason that his damage would stick around anyways. If whis can actually get a hit he should one shot, but he doesn't seem to reliably be able to get past spatial shields.

 

[JackJoyce]

Whis dodges and teleports and the ships hit each other. How bout dat?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Whis dodges and teleports and the ships hit each other. How bout dat?

Then the ship would teleport to move away from it's own attack, or just move out of the way themselves? I don't kow what you're trying to say.

And this wouldn't even happen considering 2117 can bypass distances with space manip. Whis would just have a mini-black hole manifest at his location and get turned into spaghetti.

 

[JackJoyce]

Kidding lol. Does the grand wave motion canon bend space? If it does then Whis is going to lose.

About the black holes; I think MFTL+ characters can escape the singularity. DB already has black hole withstanding feats (though they seemed fake)

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

The GWMC doesn't bend space, however the ship can bend space to bypass distance with projectiles such as their black holes.

The Black hole would appear either inside or next to Whis. He wouldn't have time to react before it begins consuming most of his body. If the withstanding feats were with fake black holes, it wouldn't apply here, nor would it apply to Whis unless he was the one withstanding them.

 

[Starter_Pack]

Ay, ay, ay. Okay, let me take a crack at trying to dispel the Whis wankage here, since I have seen a bit of DB. (Not all the way. I've only just gotten to the Tournament of Power.)

First off, the claim that Whis can just travel back in time to make himself not dead. The biggest examples being used for this was Gowasu and how Whis brought him back to life using this method, and then Whis' change in position from when the Earth was annhiliated by Frieza in Resurrection F. Except, Whis, Beerus, Supreme Kai and Goku were watching his murder take place off-planet, and Whis activated his power off-planet as well. Same thing with Frieza destroying the Earth. And due to the nature of the time travel that Dargoo has addressed, in my mind, absolutely correctly, none of the people within the time bubble are going to be affected by this shift in time. And the reason why this is is because everyone in the bubble actually remember the events of what happened.

Now, this is different from when the entire Earth was destroyed by, say, Kid Buu. In that case, the Dragon Balls were used to bring everyone back to life, and there was no time manipulation involved in any way. So, not only did Goku and the others remember that Buu destroyed the Earth, but everyone else on Earth remembered that, too. And yet, for some odd reason, nobody remembered getting utterly destroyed when Frieza blew up the Earth. Why? Because they went back in time to before Frieza blew up the Earth. And hence, no one except for the few people who were grouped together in Whis' time bubble even remember the Earth getting blasted to smithereens. So, in short, Whis would not be able to time manipulate himself, because the very nature of his power causes the space around him, which he is at the center of, to not be effected by any sort of reversing of time.

Now, on to the revival argument. Arke has made the mention that people who die can still grow in power and learn new abilities and can still retain abilities they had in life. Yes, fine, that's very true for the Dragon Ball universe. The Buu saga is a perfect example of this, with Goku having learned to use Super Saiyan 3 during his time in the afterlife and nearly stomped Fat Buu when they fought. However, given my "limited" knowledge on the universe, I cannot remember even one example of someone getting revived from death without some kind of outside force, such as the Dragon Balls. And just like Dargoo said, Whis has never shown to be able to revive himself if he dies. Is he possibly able to revive himself? There's a good possibility that he can, yes. LIterally nothing says he can't. But, due to the fact that, not only has no one been shown to bring themselves back from the dead, but also the fact that no Angel has ever died to prove this, we have to assume that he can't. Nobody is picking on anyone or biasing themselves with one or another universe because of this. It's just that we can't go awarding people with powers that they may or may not have. And the whole feat with Whis pointing his finger at Frieza and him not being dead anymore? That was because Whis was still alive and able to use that kind of power. We don't know if he can still do that when he's dead.

If I missed something, let me know so I can try to help dispel that as well. But, for the most part, I think I answered the important questions, which is that Whis' time reversal would not work, and since we don't know whether or not Whis can revive himself when he's dead, we have to assume he can't. Not for bias, but for simplicity.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Nice, Starter.

 

[Akreious]

"And due to the nature of the time travel that Dargoo has addressed, in my mind, absolutely correctly, none of the people within the time bubble are going to be affected by this shift in time. And the reason why this is is because everyone in the bubble actually remember the events of what happened."

That sounds like more of an ability of Whis rather than "People inside are completely unaffected". Whis NEEDS to retain his memories so he could fix the problems that Beerus causes, hence the memory thing. It would be MUCH more likely that the bubble allows people inside to retain their memories to fix the problem that caused the rewind in the first place. However, we know that everyone's positions resets still. You legit can't "Not be affected" yet have your position in space reset to 3 minutes prior. It's a logical paradox. Your position in space and your physical body are both aspects of space, like your composition and it's place on an XYZ chart. Later you bring up the fact that you say what you do because of simplicity, well it's simpler to say that people retains their memories but everything else gets rewinded. Not that their positions are somehow rewinded but their actual bodies as awhole is unaffected despite position in space and composition (Still a spatial thing) being linked.

" I cannot remember even one example of someone getting revived from death without some kind of outside force"

Maybe because someone that CAN revive themselves never actually died?

Sure, Shenron died, but it's been repeatedly shown that he could only revive via wishes and it's not a thing he can do on a whim.

"That was because Whis was still alive and able to use that kind of power. We don't know if he can still do that when he's dead."

You're placing a limitation for an ability that has not displayed such. Actually, in Dragon Ball, abilities work BETTER since there's no physical limitations that restrains you.

I'm sorry, but actually. Instead of the reverse, can you somehow prove that Whis' Ability somehow can't be used other than that way around? All context says that Whis CAN use that kind of power in the afterlife because in the afterlife, no power is ever restricted. Just SAYING he never used it on himself and therefore can't is ignoring other abilities like Goku's instant transmission that allowed him to go to and fro from the living and afterlife worlds, Magic is very liberally used in the afterlife such as Fortune Teller Baba being able to use magic to bring someone back for a day. I don't get what's so controvertial about an ability that is literally "Point and Revive"

"we have to assume he can't. Not for bias, but for simplicity."

But it is bias. It ignores the very fact that the afterlife restricts no abilities, you'd have to be placing a limitation on an ability due to a location when said location never had such limitations or restrictions in the first place.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

the nightmare never ends.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Oh and still looking for others to prove your sources. Wonderful.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

This,this match is ugly af due of this Whis argument.

Why Akre,why?

 

[Akreious]

This,this match is ugly af due of this Whis argument.
Why Akre,why?

Because you guys keep placing these limitations that Whis never showed he ever had. Literally going down the most restricted way you can possibly look at Whis, despite his abilities themselves being quite simple.

Seriously. Point and revive. Why is this so controvertial. He points. And he revives.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I will make Shin Megami Tensei vs Whis if this too far......

 

[Akreious]

Oh and still looking for others to prove your sources. Wonderful.

I provided many examples and in-verse context to how abilities work in the afterlife. I never tried to get other people to "prove my sources".

Occam's Razor, which seems to be what you guys are going for, dictates that the simplest answer is likely the correct one.

In this case, you guys are saying whis can't revive himself because he never showed it. Despite the ability being...

Point and revive.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

"i point at myself coz i never dun that b4 and it works because we totally work based on assumption and not proven fact, scrutiny of baseless claims are what we live and breath here in the vs battles wiki"

Dude. You need to prove he can do that to himself. The burden of proof is not on us to wank Dragon Ball. It is on you to prove that it is not wank, but actual fact. Thus far all you have done is the text equivalent of running into a debate club and shouting "You're all wrong and I'm right so I win".

We need proof. Not "oh he should be able to" without a reason to believe that. I am begging you. Please. Go get proof.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

"Placing limitations Whis never had"

"Don't need proof"

"Point and Revive"

You're giving Whis abilities he never had, lol. Self-Resurrection is starkly different than resurrecting others, especially when your timehax has never been shown to affect your own body.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Also, Ocham's razor doesn't dictate that we need to pick the one that has the simplest answer, just the one with the least assumptions. You're assuming a great lot about Whis' capabilities.

Whereas we only need to make zero assumptions; he doesn't have the ability he never showed he could use.

 

[Akreious]

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2005267

I made a thread about this. We should move this discussion over there since at this point, this thread is completely derailed ;P

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Funny enough, 2117 can just teleport to the afterlife with multidimensional tracking and teleportation.

Whis is boned either way.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Oh nice. So since he rev-ed others he can rev himself? Nice.

Whis immesurable speed when?

Im amazed no one used the argument "Whis is stronger than MUI goku so he solos".

Zeno 4D erasure when via pointing. Zeno points you get erased on a 4D scale, easy as that. Needs to get added.

On a serious note:

These guys can't prove you wrong on "whis reviving" he hasn't shown the ability to revive yet nothing points to him being unable to do so. So you are allowed to think that he can revive, it's your opinion. Though you are not allowed to use it.

There is a deal in here m8. "You can't prove me wrong" is not an argument. A character needs to have shown to do something in order to be accepted. The supporting party "always" needs to have enough proof to make the other party believe (some ppl say "positive argument" instead of supporting statement but Positive can be missunderstood quite a bit sometimes).

Whis is able to erase the multiverse.

What makes you think that?

Because you can't say he doesn't.

Your argument has no basis. Lack of showings cannot be used as a feat.

Goku resists causality manipulation.

What makes you think that?

Because he has resisted other stuff before so he should resist causality aswell.

^ This argument shows totally unrelated events to try and prove something.

Both of these cases cannot be used, so unless you show some kind of believable statement or a feat of Whis being rev-ed then it can't be used.

About the "well what if an angels dies and the universe is left on the whims of a GoD, so angels should be able to revive". Not exaclty, im gonna say they don't have rev. Toriyama didn't give them the revive ability...why? Simple no one can kill them. They don't need self-rev if they are never going to die.

So yeah Whis can't revive.

Whis throws his finger when?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I'm going to count votes:

2117 - 5 (Fire, Bambu, Starter, Wok, Zach)

Whis - 2 (Xantospok, Akrei)

If I missed one, tell me.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I'm going to count votes:
2117 - 4 (Fire, Bambu, Starter, Wok, Zach)

Whis - 2 (Xantospok, Akrei)

If I missed one, tell me.

What no i didn't vote. I don't even know the scp dude. I was just clairfying the "he points he revs" part.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Ah, no worries.

2117 - 4 (Bambu, Starter, Wok, Zach)

Whis - 2 (Xantospok, Akrei)

 

[Starter_Pack]

Ah, no worries.

2117 - 4 (Bambu, Starter, Wok, Zach)

Whis - 2 (Xantospok, Akrei)

Technically, I didn't vote either. I was just attempting to clarify some of the points Arke made on Whis.