Scarlet Witch should be at least 2-A, in House of M

[Hykuu]

Yeah, I think Aye just missed the fact that I QUOTED Sandman's original post and my post was a rebuttal,I wasn't just spamming scans like a zombie, they all had correlation to the original post and all the context addressed it.

 

[Soratoum]

Even though Chaos Wave being created by her is debatable (Personally, I think she controlled/created it), it's not needed to give her an upgrade. There is solid amount of 2-A feats she has, completely unrelated to Chaos Wave, and not sure if it was posted before, but she was able to control the In-Betweener, due to her chaotic powers, even before House of M. In-Betweener is 2-A.

 

[Hykuu]

Agreed.

Also,Wasn't she relative to Wiccan last time I checked?

 

[Soratoum]

Yeah, she was.

 

[Ayewale]

Her 2-A feats are all outliers ffs.

 

[Hykuu]

nice argument

 

[Ayewale]

Yeah, thanks. I've already told you all already in-depth about why and how they're all outliers.

 

[Hykuu]

Yeah, and we are still in disagreement, lol.

 

[Ayewale]

It is not my fault that you can't get the fact that Wanda is at most high 4-B normally. If you want to say 'she has some 2-A feats', every marvel character has a LOT of outliers (let's not start on Iceman and Dormammu), but we put them at 4-B because that makes most sense.

 

[Hykuu]

Dude, I don't think anyone here really cares what you percieve as "the most sense" if it is being continously addressed over and over, you really don't have anything to stand on if your point is that "u arent getting it bro"

What outliers does dormammu have? Ice-man has infinite anti-feats to go against his really higher feats, which isn't the case for SW at all

 

[Ayewale]

-He's lost to much weaker characters, like a weakened Galactus and Thanos and Thor.

-He's about on par with both Classic and Modern Doctor Strange

-He actually has been challenged by Iceman

-The Phoenix Force was stated to be comparable to Dormammu, and the PForce is certifiable 4-A.

These are a few examples.


And anyways, it seems your unable to accept that your argument for Wanda being 2-A has been debunked a year ago.

 

[Hykuu]

- Context, my guy, also, those 2 outliers wouldn't even be enough as an argument for it work as an analogy in comparison to SW, but alright.

- No? Tf? He was literally stated to be able to "Instantly erase Strange", twice.

- Yeah, Iceman challenged oblivion aswell

- The full Force is 2-A here

Yeah, looks like the argument went forward in time and addressed my current rebuttal, right?

 

[Ayewale]

No, your current rebuttal just still loses to the previous argument.

Anyways, those outliers are very much enough to downgrade Dormammu by your logic. And yes, Modern Dr.Strange has fought Dormammu multiple times. Also, Deadpool sliced off Dormammu's head once, to add to his inconsistency. So him fighting Scarlet Witch and not winning immediately is another marvel inconsistency.

 

[Ayewale]

And for the Phoenix Force example, they were referring to a 4-A Jean Grey there.

 

[Hykuu]

Basing off what? That's literally not how argumentative standards work, but sure?

No, not really, we know his power differs aswell due to prayers, yeah, he did, so? We know Dormammu does quite literally respect Strange, and that the only reason their conflict keeps going is because Dormammu wants it to. Yeah, Deadpool is a ******* gag character, LOL.

Don't remember bringing up Dormammu "not winning instantly" but whatever floats your boat Ig.

When? Are you talking about the comic where Jean was literally portrayed to be greater than abstracts orr??

 

[LordTracer]

Also Modern Dormammu is a lot weaker than Classic Dormammu, so... Modern Strange matching him isn't really a good point.

 

[Ayewale]

Ah yes, Deadpool's a comedic character, so we can't use him for scaling! No. That's dumb, period. We scale gag and comedic characters all the time. We have a Lobo page. Dragon Ball (not DBZ) is primarily a comedic manga.

Also, no, Dr.Strange was said to be directly comparable to Dormammu. He was even 'holding him back' in the Last Days of Magic event.

And no, in that comic Dorm was compared to Dark Phoenix Jean.

 

[Hykuu]

That literally is a complete strawman of what my point is? Point is, he can still have GAG feats, No idea why you tried jumping the gun, he still has feats which can be disregarded even if he does have some feats which are serious, is the point.

Yeah, the statement comes from who? Under what circumstances? Basing off what? Holding him back? Dude, you do realize this literally doesn't contradict how Dormammu constantly holds back against Strange and could have ended their conflict in any minute? And as lord tracer said, Modern Dorm is far weaker than classic Dormammu

Alright, feel free to post it.

 

[Ayewale]

Modern Dorm is so much weaker that he doesn't even have his own key. And Modern Dorm even has his own 2-A feats, so he should be as strong as he wanted to be.

And your point is literally just 'deadpool is a joke character LOL' so, how else do you want me to interpret it? And gag feats are still feats, we just classify them as outliers most of the time. However, you seemed to have forgotten the meaning of outlier in making Scarlet Witch 2-A. And the statement comes directly from Doctor Strange himself during the Last Days of Magic when he summons a strange hell-demon to defeat the techno-villains for that arc with.

 

[LordTracer]

You... kinda just contradicted your own point. "even has his own 2-A feats, so he should be as strong as he wanted to be." Didn't you literally just call all of Scarlet Witch's 2-A feats outliers?

 

[Hykuu]

Yeah, Odin also didn't have a modern Key until recently (very recent), that's not a point, Okay, and so does SW, Lmao.

Again, that's what jumping the gun is, the statement itself can be taken as "He is a gag character, so it is very comment he does feats like these" which are extremely inconsistent and incoherent.

Yeah, so Strange is just mistaken? Is that it? Statements which are consistently contradicted aren't really that important, y'know.

Dormammu has consistently slapped beings who would body Doctor Strange (full power) WHILE dormammu is depowered

Strange has admitted a dozen times dormammu would slap him

The countless times dormammu has been stated to hold back against strange

The countless times dormammu literally beat strange

the fact strange needs prep ALL the time

All of this is barely contradicted, a single "feat" where strange states "yo chill I am holding him back rofl" doesn't really mean much here

 

[Antvasima]

I still agree with Ayewale. The Scarlet Witch is more generally portrayed as on par with 4-B characters outside of House of M. Thor was able to fight the In-Betweener on even footing in that Geoff Johnns Avengers story and Namor was able to briefly hold his own. Marvel is incredibly inconsistent and filled to the brim with outliers in all directions.

 

[Hykuu]

Old King Thor last time I checked but aite

Good outlier for Namor ngl.

 

[Antvasima]

Is it fine if I close this then?

 

[LordTracer]

Okay, what about 2-A HoM Scarlet Witch? It's pretty obvious you aren't gonna agree on her being 2-A in base.

 

[Hykuu]

Dude, I was disagreeing with you, lol, not sure why we would instantly close a thread like this when there are obvious disagreements.

Anyway, Old King Thor himself would be upgraded to 2-A if Odin is 2-A (which we are planning to do) and Namor having an outlier doesn't discredit Inbetweener's tier, same thing like when Ant-Man took a hit from Eternity, can't discredit Chthon being a cancer to eternity just because of that

 

[Antvasima]

The problem is that, as I mentioned earlier, outliers work in all directions, and the In-Betweener was not portrayed as very powerful in that particular story.

 

[Hykuu]

OKT literally doesn't have anything to contradict that feat though?

Yeah, again, what's your basis?

 

[Soratoum]

A separate key for House of M Scarlet Witch seems fair... "At least 2-A" in House of M, in base, varies, up to Low 2-C.

 

[Ayewale]

She already has a Separate key, as of a bunch of days ago. I made it.

 

[Soratoum]

Ah, I haven't noticed.

 

[Hykuu]

I just looked at her justification, and my god

Let's look at this fight for a moment

- First scan, we quite literally see Scarlet Witch talking about how they are wasting time, and that she wants thor to YIELD instead of just killing him with a single hex blast.

- Thor farts out a lighting bolt which gets negated by SW; who talks about how futile it is, he goes running at her with mjölnir, "can thouf a89efafaef8eaf withstand mjölnir", she just tells him he is out of his mind, and completely forget how strong she is.

- Thor quite literally says, he knows SW can warp reality and neg him, but that she needs rest and focus to do that, which as he says, "she won't get any". This explains why thor was rushing at her like an idiot, it's because he was simply trying to apply pressure so he DOESN'T use her hax.

Is there anything more notable to this feat or is this all? Cus it's a pretty weak justification

 

[Soratoum]

Still though, House of M was a special moment in her publication history, and it still should be 2-A, at least, due to number of feats she has performed during the storyline and its tie-ins, that fit that tier. For her base, I already saw she's 4-B, but it should be added "Up to Low 2-C", due to the description in her AP section.

 

[Soratoum]

Also, tbh, her AP in base should not be 4-B, but 4-A.

 

[Hykuu]

@Soratoum I wasn't trying to attack your claim, I was attacking the justification for 4-B, she clearly wasn't taking the guy seriously at all.

But yeah, we literally see that the moment she actually has focus and rest, she actually just BFRs thor in order to avoid harming him, that's all, narration doesn't really mean alot, as we already know how thor WOULD have "won" the fight. (In the 2nd scan in the profile)

 

[Soratoum]

I know you weren't attacking my claim, lol, I was expressing my opinion on the subject, since she one-shotted Magik, who has 4-A (at least) with Phoenix Force, coupled with some other feats, she could be a solid 4-A, in base, going up to Low 2-C with prep. And in House of M At least 2-A.

 

[Ayewale]

I just looked at her justification, and my god
Let's look at this fight for a moment

- First scan, we quite literally see Scarlet Witch talking about how they are wasting time, and that she wants thor to YIELD instead of just killing him with a single hex blast.

- Thor farts out a lighting bolt which gets negated by SW; who talks about how futile it is, he goes running at her with mjölnir, "can thouf a89efafaef8eaf withstand mjölnir", she just tells him he is out of his mind, and completely forget how strong she is.

- Thor quite literally says, he knows SW can warp reality and neg him, but that she needs rest and focus to do that, which as he says, "she won't get any". This explains why thor was rushing at her like an idiot, it's because he was simply trying to apply pressure so he DOESN'T use her hax.

Is there anything more notable to this feat or is this all? Cus it's a pretty weak justification

What about She-Hulk? And what about the Word of God statement stating that there is no defeating thor in direct conflict?

-Your first point is cool. She's not trying to kill thor, but she's still trying hard to, you know, not die, so she's using a good part of her power.

-Your second point is cool, but there's plenty of evidence suggesting that that's Plot's Induced Stupidity considering that she's still consistently 9-B. And Wanda is a rather confident/arrogant character at times, it's possible she was just overexaggerating, as she does more often the not.

-Your point's cool. But...what's the point of mentioning it here?

 

[Ayewale]

Still though, House of M was a special moment in her publication history, and it still should be 2-A, at least, due to number of feats she has performed during the storyline and its tie-ins, that fit that tier. For her base, I already saw she's 4-B, but it should be added "Up to Low 2-C", due to the description in her AP section.

House of M is classified as 'at least 2-C', since it's true, identifiable power is hard to quanitfy and depends on the comic describing it. She is 2-C with preparation time; this was already noted in her description.

 

[Soratoum]

House of M should be bumped up though. There were many feats she performed (that were mentioned in this thread) that were 2-A, and I don't see a reason why those changes shouldn't be implemented, especially those pointing out at her being only Low 2-C are in a vast minority compared to those putting her at higher, 2-A, level.


As for, 2-C with prep, I agree, but it's not stated on her Tier classification section, only on AP section. Just an aesthetical issue, nothing else.

 

[LordTracer]

Wouldn't it be 2-A with prep and not Low 2-C? Also the description for her "Low 2-C with prep" sounds way more like 2-A than Low 2-C.