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Hey everyone!
It's been a while since my last Nardo thread, but don't worry, this will be the first in a long line of CRTs coming very soon. This new series of threads won't be statistics related (though that stuff will come, too), but will aim to improve the profiles' quality in general. We will add references, scans, fix/improve/add justifications. add/fix the P&A sections, improve intelligence, stamina, weaknesses, etc.
Before we get to all of that though, I would like to get today's topic settled because it surprisingly affects over 95% of the profiles.
So, ummmm, the Goddamn Substitution Jutsu exists unfortunately, and it's just............dumb. I think it's no secret that it's one of the most confusing Jutsu in the series, and it's not even close.
To start with, let's examine how this old bastard of a Jutsu has been handled on the wiki, yea?
So in case you haven't figured it out already, my main aim with this thread is to figure out the mechanics of this Jutsu, and give it a proper rating that both falls within the confines of our P&A and also explains the ability better.
Now make no mistake, I completely understand why my predecessors opted for the easy way out by just slapping that vague phrase on the profiles. I get it, this ability is tricky to figure out. But the only way to come close to doing that is to examine the facts that the manga presented to us.
A good place to start would be to look to the official explanations of the technique.
So here's the official explanation from the manga. (Chapter 6)
And here's the explanation from the very first Databook:
If you haven't already figured it out, this Jutsu is problematic because it sometimes functions straight up like teleportation. The Madara, Pain, and Kakashi examples are the most egregious. These guys were physically restrained by their opponents, and yet somehow managed to replace themselves with either a log or another character at the exact instant they were attacked, without their opponent noticing at all. Like Kakashi was attacked, and in that moment he managed to replace himself with a Naruto clone, without Naruto, the replacement clone, or the other clones noticing, and then disappeared into the trees.
We can somewhat justify this instance by Kakashi simply being incomparably faster than Naruto, but the issue is that this Jutsu consistently works on people comparable to the user in speed, and many of them even had very powerful senses, ESP, precog, etc. Somehow disappearing and nigh-on instantly, physically, replacing yourself with another object against such characters seems very hard to believe.
At the same time, I understand some of the reservations about treating this Jutsu as straight up Teleportation. The initial explanation by Sasuke doesn't really support it. Sasuke's words imply that this is the work of insane speed and skill, allowing one to replace himself with an object or a person in the vicinity at the exact moment of attack to create the optical illusion of being attacked and creating an opening for a counter attack.
However, I have some issues with this. How on earth can they get so fast? Shunshin? Because that makes zero sense, too. Shunshin can indeed be a pretty substantial speed amp, but it's not like it's THAT substantial. Comparable characters sure as hell can't blitz each other that badly with Shunshin, and we have instances of characters reacting to usages of Shunshin, and battling each other with Shunshin.
Another logical issue is for the user himself. Even if we pretend that Shunshin is some incomparable godly speed amp so far beyond the user's own level of speed and perception, then that would automatically disqualify it from being the thing responsible for the Substitution Jutsu. Why? Because while using the SJ, the user is making multiple complex actions at that speed which would be utterly impossible if they were moving at speeds far beyond their own perception.
So we either have:
A) The user is moving at a speed far beyond their opponent's perception, which would contradict the cases where the Jutsu is used against characters comparable to or superior to the user.
OR
B) The user is moving at a speed far beyond their own perception, which just negates the whole premise as they NEED to be able to react to their own movements to physically replace themselves with an object at such speeds.
As you can see, the "they're just moving really fast" interpretation isn't exactly without flaws, and in practice, I find it far more illogical and headache-inducing than the "Limited Teleportation" idea. I understand that the SJ was never stated to be a Space-Time Jutsu or anything, but still, we don't need everything spoon-fed to us necessarily. We can make interpretations, take liberties, and even ignore statements if what the lore presents to us is utterly incomprehensible.
The only way for the "speed" idea to even remotely work is for it to be accompanied by an ungodly level of Stealth Mastery, which would still be weird in the cases where they're against sensors, are physically restrained, and just in general because it's strange for such levels of Stealth to be limited to this technique for some reason.
Now, you may think I'm solely advocating for the Teleportation idea, but I'm actually not. I realize that both interpretations have flaws. This thread is ultimately meant for us to collectively decide how to treat this damn thing once and for all. I need all of you to help me decide which options works best in this case.
Option #1:
That's about all I have to say. If you guys have any better suggestions, I'm all ears. I just wanna replace what we currently have on the profiles, BADLY.
This is 100% open for discussion and modification.
P.S. I probably won't make the changes right away, since it'll literally involve dozens of profiles. I'll make the changes progressively as I fix the characters' P&A sections.
Of course if ya'll want to apply the changes right away, I'm open to that as well, but I'll probably need some help with it.
So, umm, yeah, let's discuss.
It's been a while since my last Nardo thread, but don't worry, this will be the first in a long line of CRTs coming very soon. This new series of threads won't be statistics related (though that stuff will come, too), but will aim to improve the profiles' quality in general. We will add references, scans, fix/improve/add justifications. add/fix the P&A sections, improve intelligence, stamina, weaknesses, etc.
Before we get to all of that though, I would like to get today's topic settled because it surprisingly affects over 95% of the profiles.
So, ummmm, the Goddamn Substitution Jutsu exists unfortunately, and it's just............dumb. I think it's no secret that it's one of the most confusing Jutsu in the series, and it's not even close.
To start with, let's examine how this old bastard of a Jutsu has been handled on the wiki, yea?
This little sentence is what's plastered over the grand majority of our profiles, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand I hate it. Like, do I even need to explain why this sucks? For starters, it's not actually rated within the confines of our Powers and Abilities. It's ugly, confusing, and doesn't actually tell readers how this thing works at all.Can replace himself with inanimate objects in the vicinity to avoid damage
So in case you haven't figured it out already, my main aim with this thread is to figure out the mechanics of this Jutsu, and give it a proper rating that both falls within the confines of our P&A and also explains the ability better.
Now make no mistake, I completely understand why my predecessors opted for the easy way out by just slapping that vague phrase on the profiles. I get it, this ability is tricky to figure out. But the only way to come close to doing that is to examine the facts that the manga presented to us.
A good place to start would be to look to the official explanations of the technique.
So here's the official explanation from the manga. (Chapter 6)
And here's the explanation from the very first Databook:
Before analyzing these explanations, let's also have a looks at a few of the most prominent examples of its use from the manga. These are the best examples I could remember; if you guys can remember other/better examples or showings, please feel free to bring them up.Body Replacement Technique (Kawarimi no Jutsu)
That body – in an instant, it changes into a block of wood, taking the enemy by surprise!!
- Ninjutsu, E-rank, Supplementary
- User(s): Hatake Kakashi, Uzumaki Naruto, et al.
With this technique, one replaces their own body with a block of wood or something, the moment an attack lands. This creates an optical illusion, making the enemy think the attack was successful. From this, the user can use the lapse in the enemy’s attention to attack or flee from the battlefield. It’s a basic Ninjutsu even taught at the Academy, but it’s a useful art that can be applied in variety of situations!!
Kakashi’s magnificent Body Replacement Technique. Naruto saw nothing else but him being hit by the attack.
- Kakashi uses the Substitution Jutsu on Naruto and his clones. He replaces himself with one of Naruto's clones right before Naruto's attack is about to connect. He then disappears into the foliage above. It's important to note that not only did nobody notice him move, including the several clones watching him, but Naruto was literally holding him prior to his use of the Jutsu. More on that later. (Chapter 5)
- Sakura uses it against Zaku. (Chapter 54)
- Pain uses it against Jiraiya. Once again, Jiraiya was literally holding Pain physically here, and had him restrained from all directions. (Chapter 374)
- Itachi uses it against Sage Kabuto. (Chapter 580)
- Madara uses it against Naruto and Sasuke. Once again, in this instance, Naruto and Sasuke were in physical contact with Madara, had Jutsus connected to him, including one that actually seals movements. Madara somehow used it against these two guys who have godly sensory abilities, precog, and/or unparalleled visual capacity, and simply swapped with a Limbo clone before they could even register what had occured. (Chapter 674)
If you haven't already figured it out, this Jutsu is problematic because it sometimes functions straight up like teleportation. The Madara, Pain, and Kakashi examples are the most egregious. These guys were physically restrained by their opponents, and yet somehow managed to replace themselves with either a log or another character at the exact instant they were attacked, without their opponent noticing at all. Like Kakashi was attacked, and in that moment he managed to replace himself with a Naruto clone, without Naruto, the replacement clone, or the other clones noticing, and then disappeared into the trees.
We can somewhat justify this instance by Kakashi simply being incomparably faster than Naruto, but the issue is that this Jutsu consistently works on people comparable to the user in speed, and many of them even had very powerful senses, ESP, precog, etc. Somehow disappearing and nigh-on instantly, physically, replacing yourself with another object against such characters seems very hard to believe.
At the same time, I understand some of the reservations about treating this Jutsu as straight up Teleportation. The initial explanation by Sasuke doesn't really support it. Sasuke's words imply that this is the work of insane speed and skill, allowing one to replace himself with an object or a person in the vicinity at the exact moment of attack to create the optical illusion of being attacked and creating an opening for a counter attack.
However, I have some issues with this. How on earth can they get so fast? Shunshin? Because that makes zero sense, too. Shunshin can indeed be a pretty substantial speed amp, but it's not like it's THAT substantial. Comparable characters sure as hell can't blitz each other that badly with Shunshin, and we have instances of characters reacting to usages of Shunshin, and battling each other with Shunshin.
Another logical issue is for the user himself. Even if we pretend that Shunshin is some incomparable godly speed amp so far beyond the user's own level of speed and perception, then that would automatically disqualify it from being the thing responsible for the Substitution Jutsu. Why? Because while using the SJ, the user is making multiple complex actions at that speed which would be utterly impossible if they were moving at speeds far beyond their own perception.
So we either have:
A) The user is moving at a speed far beyond their opponent's perception, which would contradict the cases where the Jutsu is used against characters comparable to or superior to the user.
OR
B) The user is moving at a speed far beyond their own perception, which just negates the whole premise as they NEED to be able to react to their own movements to physically replace themselves with an object at such speeds.
As you can see, the "they're just moving really fast" interpretation isn't exactly without flaws, and in practice, I find it far more illogical and headache-inducing than the "Limited Teleportation" idea. I understand that the SJ was never stated to be a Space-Time Jutsu or anything, but still, we don't need everything spoon-fed to us necessarily. We can make interpretations, take liberties, and even ignore statements if what the lore presents to us is utterly incomprehensible.
The only way for the "speed" idea to even remotely work is for it to be accompanied by an ungodly level of Stealth Mastery, which would still be weird in the cases where they're against sensors, are physically restrained, and just in general because it's strange for such levels of Stealth to be limited to this technique for some reason.
Now, you may think I'm solely advocating for the Teleportation idea, but I'm actually not. I realize that both interpretations have flaws. This thread is ultimately meant for us to collectively decide how to treat this damn thing once and for all. I need all of you to help me decide which options works best in this case.
Option #1:
- Limited Teleportation (The Substitution Jutsu allows its user to instantly replace themselves with a nearby object such as a tree log, plant, person, or clone at the exact moment they are attacked. The Jutsu works even if the user is physically restrained or observed by characters as observant as Sharingan or Sage Mode users. This creates the optical illusion of the user being hit, which confuses the opponent and gives them an opening to flee or counterattack[39][40][41][42][43])
- Afterimage Creation, Stealth Mastery, and Speed Enhancement (The Substitution Jutsu allows its user to instantly replace themselves with a nearby object such as a tree log, plant, person, or clone at the exact moment they are attacked. The Jutsu works even if the user is physically restrained or observed by characters as observant as Sharingan or Sage Mode users. This creates the optical illusion of the user being hit, which confuses the opponent and gives them an opening to flee or counterattack[39][40][41][42][43])
That's about all I have to say. If you guys have any better suggestions, I'm all ears. I just wanna replace what we currently have on the profiles, BADLY.
This is 100% open for discussion and modification.
P.S. I probably won't make the changes right away, since it'll literally involve dozens of profiles. I'll make the changes progressively as I fix the characters' P&A sections.
Of course if ya'll want to apply the changes right away, I'm open to that as well, but I'll probably need some help with it.
So, umm, yeah, let's discuss.
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