Sanji Fights a Snake Boi

[Kachon123]

Didn't notice that Mitsuki was Massively Hypersonic+, not just Massively Hypersonic. This changes things, as his amp is only about makes him about 11x faster.

One of the ways Haki works is that it enhances your senses allowing you to react to things faster than you normally can.

Since you're arguing it'd be some type of multiplier since Sanji "scales" above Aisa's potency, it'd be something like this: Aisa would be something like Below Average Human level, MHS+ with Haki. As you imply, Sanji would scale above this feat in reactions as his Haki is superior to Aisa's. So Sanji's speed would be something like Relativistic+, MFTL with Haki (Should scale above Aisa's proficiency in Haki). This would be the justification.

But obviously that's not how that works in the verse, nobody in the verse currently has reactions that span to MFTL, or even higher, as characters currently are now FTL+, and their Haki should scale above Aisa. But for some reason it's not on their profile because... you guys decided to put it on the Haki page?

Because according to the Haki page, if one is a higher level in Haki advancement than the other, then they should scale to their feats.

Another example, we have characters like Gedatsu and Katakuri, who both have higher with Haki on their profiles, which is perfectly fine. But they both, according to you, should scale above Aisa in Haki potency, which would also include reactions. Yet none of their profiles incorporate that logic because it's not a multiplier, yet you're acting like it is.

I never once claimed that Sanji scales above Aisa's potency. That's not how Kenbun works. 'Better/Stronger' Kenbun isn't shown through how big your reaction speed amp is, it's shown through how sensitive you are. For example, Koby's Kenbun could detect a torpedo heading his way while Helmeppo's wasn't acute enough to do the same. So whether we're talking about Sanji or Aisa, the speed amp should be the same, with the difference being mastery and reflexes.

I did not say that Aisa reacted to lightning to say that she or Sanji has a million times amp, but rather to reiterate that Kenbun boosts the reactions to insane levels. This is because when we have a "character A has a blitz amp and character B can precog blitz amps" situation, its almost impossible to determine what the outcome would be because as we know a blitz can occur when the speed difference is only a of few times, or it could be far higher. Mitsuki's amp (11x) is, at least in my opinion not nearly enough so overwhelm Sanji's kenbun because other Kenbun users like Aisa, Doflamingo, Rebecca, etc have been been shown to react to attacks that are far faster than themselves.

 

[Nierre]

Rather than trying to quantify two amps with no numeric way to quantify, it would be better to just argue which is the better in-verse amp, like if one is blitz level or not.

Actually that's fair.

BC there are characters who scale far higher than the value they are currently, so ig it'd make no sense to compare them numerically since there's a scaling chain

 

[Nierre]

IIRC the scaling chain is something like

ST Mitsuki blitzed Orochimaru, and Orochimaru blitzed Base Naruto = FTL+

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

IIRC the scaling chain is something like

ST Mitsuki blitzed Orochimaru, and Orochimaru blitzed Base Naruto = FTL+

Isnt this Blank Period Naruto?


iirc he gets 10c base from boruto era via scaling off of momo

 

[Nierre]

Isnt this Blank Period Naruto?


iirc he gets 10c base from boruto era via scaling off of momo

No that novel (Naruto Retsuden) takes place before the Ao Arc and after the Mujina Bandits Arc in the manga

 

[Nierre]

Anyway-

* Battle takes place in Ichigo Kurosaki's room during the events of Hueco Mundo

what? are they allowed to leave the room??

The match would mostly be close combat then. Sanji is definitely more skilled than Mitsuki in close combat, and he's more likely to pull out DJ before Mitsuki uses his full Transformation, but he'll still go for SM. He usually uses ST when bloodlusted or if Boruto is in grave danger.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

please destroy that ginger's room

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

No that novel (Naruto Retsuden) takes place before the Ao Arc and after the Mujina Bandits Arc in the manga

Wasn't this Naruto, like, dying and unable to manipulate chakra? I'm pretty sure Naruto Retsuden's the one where Naruto was suffering from the chakra illness.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

in that case the current rating of 0.1c should be perfectly fine since thats the feat naruto had

 

[Nierre]

Wasn't this Naruto, like, dying and unable to manipulate chakra? I'm pretty sure Naruto Retsuden's the one where Naruto was suffering from the chakra illness.

ahh probably, i never fully read the novel

in that case where does the Rel value even come from? Oro's feat is basically useless since he blitzed a dying Naruto, who's speed is unknown

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

ahh probably, i never fully read the novel

in that case where does the Rel value even come from? Oro's feat is basically useless since he blitzed a dying Naruto, who's speed is unknown

Ngl, that rating should probably get axed.
It's based on Naruto dodging photon beams in the novel, but like, we can't calc the feat at all. Depending on a multitude of factors, it could be FTL, Rel, or MHS. We have no idea.
But arbitrarily slapping a baseline Rel rating on Naruto's profile is definitely not the move.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Ngl, that rating should probably get axed.
It's based on Naruto dodging photon beams in the novel, but like, we can't calc the feat at all. Depending on a multitude of factors, it could be FTL, Rel, or MHS. We have no idea.
But arbitrarily slapping a baseline Rel rating on Naruto's profile is definitely not the move.

Rip Rel Naruto

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Rip Rel Naruto

He's literally FTL

 

[Nierre]

it's more like rip rel oro and MItsuki and victor

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

He's literally FTL

I was gonna say we lost the calc friendly statistic but then I learned about hiding calcs so uhh nvm

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Anyway-

what? are they allowed to leave the room??

The match would mostly be close combat then. Sanji is definitely more skilled than Mitsuki in close combat, and he's more likely to pull out DJ before Mitsuki uses his full Transformation, but he'll still go for SM. He usually uses ST when bloodlusted or if Boruto is in grave danger.

Yeah they can leave lol

 

[Kachon123]

What's Mitsuki's wincon? His lightning doesn't work, Sanji has higher AP and LS, heat-based dura neg, precog that negates Mitsuki's speed amps, speed amps, flight, and is more skilled in close combat. Dispersing into snakes also won't work thanks to Buso attacking his real body and Substitution also won't trip Sanji up as he'd know where Mitsuki would pop up before he uses it thanks to Kenbun.

 

[Lynieryz]

I just want to remind everyone that the slower character winning because of a speed amp at equalized speed means the battle cannot be added to the profile.

 

[Kidkinsey]

What's Mitsuki's wincon? His lightning doesn't work, Sanji has higher AP and LS, heat-based dura neg, precog that negates Mitsuki's speed amps, speed amps, flight, and is more skilled in close combat. Dispersing into snakes also won't work thanks to Buso attacking his real body and Substitution also won't trip Sanji up as he'd know where Mitsuki would pop up before he uses it thanks to Kenbun.

I'm not so sure dispersing into snakes is a complete 1:1 as logia intangability if that's the reasoning you have for buso countering it

 

[Kachon123]

I'm not so sure dispersing into snakes is a complete 1:1 as logia intangability if that's the reasoning you have for buso countering it

Attacking Mitsuki's true body. If he's still there just dispersed into snakes, Haki would be able to interact with him.

 

[Kidkinsey]

Attacking Mitsuki's true body. If he's still there just dispersed into snakes, Haki would be able to interact with him.

Na his body is just replaced with snakes as he moves somewhere else. They usually use it in conjuction with body flicker

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Attacking Mitsuki's true body. If he's still there just dispersed into snakes, Haki would be able to interact with him.

It's not similar at all. What Mitsuki's doing there is Snake Clone Substitution, which is a variation of the Substitution Jutsu that allows Mitsuki to replace himself with a clone made out of snakes, instead of the traditional log.

 

[Kachon123]

It's not similar at all. What Mitsuki's doing there is Snake Clone Substitution, which is a variation of the Substitution Jutsu that allows Mitsuki to replace himself with a clone made out of snakes, instead of the traditional log.

Regardless, Haki should definitely allow Sanji to damage Mitsuki's real body if he disperses into snakes (unless this is just substitution Jutsu)

Thank you for clarifying.

 

[Kachon123]

But like I mentioned, substitution jutsu is not an issue at all thanks to Kenbun.

His Kenbunshoku Haki is also superior to Zoro's who was able to similarly use his Kenbunshoku Haki to predict where Pica would shift his consciousness and body to before it actually happened.
This is what I mean

 

[Kachon123]

But like I mentioned, substitution jutsu is not an issue at all thanks to Kenbun.

Something similar happened with Vergo against Smoker (sensing his location).

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I'm not really sure ESP would help against SJ given that it works on Sage Mode, SPSM, and Sharingan users pretty routinely.

 

[Kachon123]

I'm not really sure ESP would help against SJ given that it works on Sage Mode, SPSM, and Sharingan users pretty routinely.

I meant sensing location via precog, not ESP.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I meant sensing location via precog, not ESP.

These guys have precog too. Intent sensing. Danger sensing. Info Analysis and kinetic vision (for the sharingan peeps specifically). The whole nine yards.

 

[Kachon123]

These guys have precog too. Intent sensing. Danger sensing. Info Analysis and kinetic vision (for the sharingan peeps specifically). The whole nine yards.

As acute as Sanji's though? This is the same guy who can sense a single person's intent across entire islands and warzones. He's done it several times. Just because they have the same ability doesn't mean that they are equally potent.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

As acute as Sanji's though? This is the same guy who can sense a single person's intent across entire islands and warzones. He's done it several times. Just because they have the same ability doesn't mean that they are equally potent.

Well, Sage Mode's sensory abilities work across entire countries spanning thousands of kilometers, and SPSM's works across literal dimensions and is essentially Cosmic Awareness, so I'd say they should be covered range-wise.

 

[Kachon123]

Well, Sage Mode's sensory abilities work across entire countries spanning thousands of kilometers, and SPSM's works across literal dimensions and is essentially Cosmic Awareness, so I'd say they should be covered range-wise.

As does Sanji's. My point is that it's more of an antifeat for those sensory abilities than a feat for substitution jutsu, as there's nothing special that they are doing that would stop Kenbun from predicting them.

 

[Kachon123]

As does Sanji's. My point is that it's more of an antifeat for those sensory abilities than a feat for substitution jutsu, as there's nothing special that they are doing that would stop Kenbun from predicting them.

Not sure if antifeat is the right term I'm looking for but it's slipping my mind

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

My point is that it's more of an antifeat for those sensory abilities than a feat for substitution jutsu

Yeah, chief, I'm not seeing it. If the sensory abilities in question were not well-established outside of these instances, then maybe. But they are well-established. So I don't see why SJ bypassing them isn't a feat for SJ. Especially because the ability always just.....works. To the point that most Naruto fans constantly question if it's not just straight up Teleportation lmao. (It's not, but y'know, might as well be)

 

[Kachon123]

Yeah, chief, I'm not seeing it. If the sensory abilities in question were not well-established outside of these instances, then maybe. But they are well-established. So I don't see why SJ bypassing them isn't a feat for SJ. Especially because the ability always just.....works. To the point that most Naruto fans constantly question if it's not just straight up Teleportation lmao. (It's not, but y'know, might as well be)

So you're telling me that somehow SJ is going to stop Sanji from reading Mitsuki's intent, emotions, and thoughts as well as stop his reaction amps from tracking his speed as he moves just becuase? That's bogus.

 

[Testarossa002]

Naruto could sense evil intents and whatnot and that didn't help him when Madara substituted
And as already shown above, blitz level amps (like Body Flicker) doesn't stop the slower person from substituting
Lee was shit blitzing Gaara and that didn't stop the latter from substituting

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

So you're telling me that somehow SJ is going to stop Sanji from reading Mitsuki's intent, emotions, and thoughts as well as stop his reaction amps from tracking his speed as he moves just becuase? That's bogus.

Okay, let me give you a an example, right.
This here, which I shared earlier. Allow me to add some context.

Madara was pinned by Naruto and Sasuke's Jutsu respectively. It's important to note that these two Jutsu are Fuinjutsu, which seals away the target's movements. Think of it as an enhanced form of paralysis.

They are also physically pinning him down on top of that, and are making physical contact with him as you can see.

Naruto was in Six Paths Sage Mode and Kurama Mode at the time.
SPSM grants ESP, danger sensing, intent sensing, life-force sensing, clairvoyance, enhanced senses, and so on, a lot of which operates on an interdimensional/cosmic scale.
Kurama Mode adds another layer of danger and intent sensing on top of that.

As for Sasuke, he's got the Sharingan. The Sharingan specifically excels at keeping track of fast moving objects, even ones that far eclipse the user's own speed. It also allows one to analyze all physical movements perfectly, again, even if they're much faster than the user. It also grants the user insight into their opponent's next move/attack in the form of a mental image in their mind's eye.

Finally, I'd like to point out that Madara is NOT faster than Naruto and Sasuke. In terms of both feats and lore/statements, he's relative to them. So there's no way to argue that he is faster than them at all.

Despite all of these compounding factors, the SJ still worked, as it always just....does.

 

[Kachon123]

Okay, let me give you a an example, right.
This here, which I shared earlier. Allow me to add some context.

Madara was pinned by Naruto and Sasuke's Jutsu respectively. It's important to note that these two Jutsu are Fuinjutsu, which seals away the target's movements. Think of it as an enhanced form of paralysis.

They are also physically pinning him down on top of that, and are making physical contact with him as you can see.

Naruto was in Six Paths Sage Mode and Kurama Mode at the time.
SPSM grants ESP, danger sensing, intent sensing, life-force sensing, clairvoyance, enhanced senses, and so on, a lot of which operates on an interdimensional/cosmic scale.
Kurama Mode adds another layer of danger and intent sensing on top of that.

As for Sasuke, he's got the Sharingan. The Sharingan specifically excels at keeping track of fast moving objects, even ones that far eclipse the user's own speed. It also allows one to analyze all physical movements perfectly, again, even if they're much faster than the user. It also grants the user insight into their opponent's next move/attack in the form of a mental image in their mind's eye.

Finally, I'd like to point out that Madara is NOT faster than Naruto and Sasuke. In terms of both feats and lore/statements, he's relative to them. So there's no way to argue that he is faster than them at all.

Despite all of these compounding factors, the SJ still worked, as it always just....does.

I know the context to that scene. That does not change anything.

Kenbun can audibly hear your thoughts as well as see glimpses of the future. Whether SJ has stealth mastery and can bypass intent sensing/other sensory abilities or not, it is not stopping Kenbun from straight up getting glimpses of future events.

 

[KaydeeX]

, it is not stopping Kenbun from straight up getting glimpses of future events.

Sanji in this key can’t see the future

 

[Kachon123]

Sanji in this key can’t see the future

This is not advanced observation Haki. This is intermediate

Intermediate Stage​

• Information Analysis and Extrasensory Perception (Power Reading; Can sense the power levels of opponents[10][25])
• Enhanced Senses
  • Enhanced Vision
    • Neutral Vision (Can see Haki, which is invisible[10])
  • Enhanced Sixth (Get small glimpses into the future[15][11][1])

 

[Nierre]

I just want to remind everyone that the slower character winning because of a speed amp at equalized speed means the battle cannot be added to the profile.

wait fr? can I see the rules on that?