One Piece - Water 7 Arc Luffy & Usopp Revision

[Damage3245]

It's located in the manga tho, vol 40

I'm aware the results of the poll were posted in the volume. I meant it doesn't come from the manga itself.

Unless we're going to add 4th Wall Awareness to Nami's list of powers?

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Mhm

 

[TioKill]

@Deceived3596 There are a few issues with relying on the statement in general;

Oh, so you replied to Deceived instead of, you know, me? I am the foundation of the argument.

1) It is a dubiously canon statement in the first place as it is given by a character breaking the 4th wall in a poll... This isn't a manga statement, a databook statement, an anime statement or even an interview with the author. For something that would be the root of scaling for dozens of characters, the very origin of it makes it unreliable.

It is not. It's a volume statement, written by Oda, likely more reliable than a Databook - geez, probably more than the acclaimed Vivre Card which are not written by this man.

This is not even a point of contention.
As I pointed out, this is hypocritical, you already consented to the validity of the statement and it's origin, it was you who suggested it in the first place, Damage. Is it too much to ask for you to have debating morals and don't change goalposts as they are inconvenient to you? This isn't a point, next.

2) It is a character-given statement.

It is not.
Your interpretation requires this version of Nami be the one physically taken out of the One Piece Universe from a random chapter and put into this 4th wall higher dimensional situation just to relay information. That is not just absurdity, more on that later, but also contradicted by the fact Nami's claim includes techniques she has never seen in her entire life in the Manga.

"Oh then the validity is no more due to Nami's ignorance-", you approved the authority and knowledge of Nami in your OP, Damage. Debating Morals, have them, I plead you. No, this 4th wall Nami has literally knowledge privileged to the author, like knowing Sanji and Zoro will eventually showcase future techniques. This isn't a character, it's just a sockpuppet for Oda.

3) It is arbitrary to apply the statement to a situational technique like the Golden Rifle which doesn't represent Luffy's true strength anyway. If you were to be generous with the statement you could even interpret it as Nami saying that CP9's Shigan is even more powerful than Enel's Deathpiea and therefore the CP9 members should be Island level. Even if we accepted the statement as being canon and reliable, it is even more assumptive to think that Nami is only comparing Shigan and the Golden Rifle in terms of the amount of joules of energy they have, and ignoring other techniques like Enel's island-busting.

Using techniques literally not ranked in the poll and saying Shigan is stronger than them is No Limits Fallacy and thus the wiki's own standards clown on this point by itself. Enel's deathpea isn't ranked, there is no reason to assume Nami would be including an unranked technique rather than just applying her statement to the ranked techniques which is the lower end interpretation, which we prioritize. So no, this point is just objectively indefensible, too bad for you.

It is not arbitrary to apply to Golden Rifle, whether or not it represents Luffy's true strength is irrelevant to how the techniques are ranked.

It is far simpler just not to rely on the statement which came from a magazine poll...

Damage, who the hell suggested the damn poll to be used in this very thread? Was it me? No, it was you, stop backpedaling.

I await for your fourth point, because these three are just plain wrong.

 

[Damage3245]

Oh, so you replied to Deceived instead of, you know, me? I am the foundation of the argument.

You're both arguing the same thing so it doesn't matter who I respond to.

Damage, who the hell suggested the damn poll to be used in this very thread? Was it me? No, it was you, stop backpedaling.

I'd prefer not using the statement if it was up to just me, of course. The suggested scaling came primarily from Arc7Kuroi and I'd accept it only as a compromise.

I await for your fourth point, because these three are just plain wrong.

Combined the four into three.

Will respond to the rest later.

 

[Deceived3596]

TioKill basically said what i was going to say so i'll just parrot their arguments, it would be wrong of me to needlessly shotgun you with points which have already been explained by someone else.

 

[Xulrev]

Enel's deathpea isn't ranked, there is no reason to assume Nami would be including an unranked technique rather than just applying her statement to the ranked techniques which is the lower end interpretation, which we prioritize.

So you actually do agree with my point, that she was including Reject Dials, which multiply an attack tenfold, into this? Since it was also a ranked technique?

Because review my earlier point then, because that flat out makes the entire statement absolute bunk, there is no way stabbing someone with a finger is better than a flat 10x boost to any absorbed attack, so she's either flat out wrong, or unreliable.

 

[Deceived3596]

No...? and i explained why in my post above, so if you want the counter towards that argument it's there.

 

[TioKill]

So you actually do agree with my point, that she was including Reject Dials, which multiply an attack tenfold, into this? Since it was also a ranked technique?

Because review my earlier point then, because that flat out makes the entire statement absolute bunk, there is no way stabbing someone with a finger is better than a flat 10x boost to any absorbed attack, so she's either flat out wrong, or unreliable.

We don't know the upper limit of the reject dial.
The reject dial isn't a technique that is powerful, the technique absorbs the opponents impact and multiplys it, it is not an achievement of it's own - it relentlessly requires another technique to surpass the Shigan - it should not count as something stronger than it.

 

[Xulrev]

We don't know the upper limit of the reject dial.
The reject dial isn't a technique that is powerful, the technique absorbs the opponents impact and multiplys it, it is not an achievement of it's own - it relentlessly requires another technique to surpass the Shigan - it should not count as something stronger than it.

But it's still a flat 10x boost, you haven't negated that core concept. And I did indeed address the thought that dials require input and set up, which is why Nami's comment probably was not solely about raw attack potency, since things not dealing with strength or striking were included on that list of techniques

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

It would be the moves that have been used/shown so far with those techniques... So it being able to be 10x shigan doesn't matter in this context

Luffy's pistol in wano is much stronger than luffy's pistol in East blue for example... The same concept applies to the dials

 

[KingTempest]

But it's still a flat 10x boost, you haven't negated that core concept. And I did indeed address the thought that dials require input and set up, which is why Nami's comment probably was not solely about raw attack potency, since things not dealing with strength or striking were included on that list of techniques

It doesn't have a set power level, but from the peak of what we've seen in the series from that technique at that point in time, it'd be superior, AKA the yield of it used by characters like Wyper, which does scale lower than the shigan through very basic powerscaling

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I’d say I’m leaning towards agreeing with Deceived’s analysis of Shigan. The point that has me convinced atm is that Nami displays knowledge of techniques in that technique poll that she’s never seen in series. So her being a stand in for Oda/omniscient narrator in this instance seems more likely than not. Although, I can kind of see the interpretation that Nami calls it the strongest because it beat Luffy and Zolo and not because it inherently has the highest AP. I do think that claim is a bit more speculative and extraordinary than Deceived’s claim. And Deceived knows how I feel about extraordinary claims

 

[ImmortalDread]

I am leaning too

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Also I want to comment on the Dial argument. To assume it can take any attack and reflect it at 10x is a bit of a NLF. For all we know the device could break if it absorbs too much energy, etc etc. So we can’t safely assume it could reflect attacks beyond the caliber that they’ve been shown to reflect at that point in the story. Which is why I don’t find the dial point too compelling, along with Deceived’s refutation of the dial argument as well.

 

[TioKill]

I’d say I’m leaning towards agreeing with Deceived’s analysis of Shigan.

 

[Damage3245]

I’d say I’m leaning towards agreeing with Deceived’s analysis of Shigan. The point that has me convinced atm is that Nami displays knowledge of techniques in that technique poll that she’s never seen in series. So her being a stand in for Oda/omniscient narrator in this instance seems more likely than not. Although, I can kind of see the interpretation that Nami calls it the strongest because it beat Luffy and Zolo and not because it inherently has the highest AP. I do think that claim is a bit more speculative and extraordinary than Deceived’s claim. And Deceived knows how I feel about extraordinary claims

I'll concede on it just to get it over and done with. If I'm right, then only Luffy's & Usopp's profiles will need updating though I'll check for any more. Oh, and some of the CP9 members possibly.

 

[Deceived3596]

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

So essentially all of the CP9 besides Kaku and Lucci go down to 7-B?

 

[Damage3245]

So essentially all of the CP9 besides Kaku and Lucci go down to 7-B?

All of the CP9 agents except Kaku and Lucci are already 7-B.

I took a break from this thread for a bit, but I'll wrap it as soon as I can.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

All of the CP9 agents except Kaku and Lucci are already 7-B.

I took a break from this thread for a bit, but I'll wrap it as soon as I can.

I mean that they all get downgraded and won’t scale to the Golden Rifle anymore

Iirc Kaku and Lucci will directly scale to Golden Rifle tho, they wouldn’t be 7-A anymore

 

[Damage3245]

I mean that they all get downgraded and won’t scale to the Golden Rifle anymore

Iirc Kaku and Lucci will directly scale to Golden Rifle tho, they wouldn’t be 7-A anymore

Have you read the current page of this thread?

TioKill is arguing that the Shigan statement should be applied to Kalifa's Shigan specifically.

Then Doriki scaling is being used to get the rest of the values for the CP9.

 

[Eseseso]

I'm still neutral on whether the Shigan statement applies to all Shigans.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm still neutral on whether the Shigan statement applies to all Shigans.

I'm still against it but I guess that's a topic for another time. This thread primarily is just sorting out the Golden Rifle as it currently applies to Luffy and Usopp.

 

[Eseseso]

I'm still against it but I guess that's a topic for another time. This thread primarily is just sorting out the Golden Rifle as it currently applies to Luffy and Usopp.

OK, but the Shigan scaling to GR is what really affects all the CP9 characters and everyone after them, even if the GR scaling is rejected.

For scaling of people in Enies Lobby and afterwards to be changed, both the GR and Shigan scaling need to be changed.

 

[Eseseso]

Also, switching to neutral for Golden Rifle scaling as well.

 

[Nierre]

bump

 

[Damage3245]

Sorry, feeling sick today and can't focus. If I'm alright tomorrow, I'll try to work on this and finish it up.

 

[Eseseso]

Bump

 

[Damage3245]

Bump

Thanks. I appreciate wanting to get this wrapped up.

I've been dealing with a chest infection for a week and I'm currently taking a VSBW break for today as it is Christmas. I'll post the proposed changes on here tomorrow.

 

[Eseseso]

Thanks. I appreciate wanting to get this wrapped up.

I've been dealing with a chest infection for a week and I'm currently taking a VSBW break for today as it is Christmas. I'll post the proposed changes on here tomorrow.

I didn't mean to pressure you, I just didn't want this CRT to be forgotten, so I apologize.

 

[Eseseso]

Sorry but bump

 

[Damage3245]

Sorry but bump

Turns out to be a bit more complex than just a few characters since the CP9 members have separate ratings for their Rokushiki.

I've got those ones done but I'm just double-checking how other characters scale and if anything needs changing.

Will post an update when I have one.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Thanks for helping out.

 

[Eseseso]

Turns out to be a bit more complex than just a few characters since the CP9 members have separate ratings for their Rokushiki.

I've got those ones done but I'm just double-checking how other characters scale and if anything needs changing.

Will post an update when I have one.

No rush, and I'm so sorry for pushing you.

I just don't want this thread to die.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I just don't want this thread to die.

 

[Eseseso]

???

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

???

 

[Eseseso]

bump

 

[Damage3245]

bump

Dude, no one has forgotten about this thread. Stop bumping it.

You apologized for pushing me when you know I'm sick, and you do it again?

 

[Nierre]

I know this thread hasn't been forgotten (it totally has lol), and I understand that Damage was (is?) sick, but can we get some updates