Rose Quartz Possible Upgrade

[WeeklyBattles]

Rose is definitely a restricted version of Pink. Before i get into it i'm going to point out that for stuff like Attack the Light/Save the Light, the crewniverse has stated that it as well as the comics are "Level 2 Canon", meaning they are considered canon unless the show itself, which is Level 1 Canon, flat out contradicts it. Now, for the reasoning, Rose fought directly against Hessonite during the rebellion, with Hessonite being able to casually defeat Garnet, Amethyst and Peridot with a single attack single shot and capable of oneshotting Sugilite and Sardonyx, but ultimately being inferior to a full power White Light, which is High 6-A, and as a Garnet Hessonite doesnt even have the capability of being anywhere near Diamond level on top of serving under Yellow Diamond. Rose was also able to take on a group of Light Warriors, which are capable of fighting Sugilite and Sardonyx on equal grounds, with some difficulty, which shouldnt be the case if she were Diamond level which would put her well above the power of even a full White Light, whereas Light Warriors are only a portion of a Light's power.

To summarize:

Rose = Hessonite

Hessonite >>> Sugilite/Sardonyx

One Light Warrior = Sugilite/Sardonyx

Rose > A Group of Light Warriors

Rainbow is a bit tricky but 'At least High 6-B, possibly High 6-A' is likely the way to go for the time being.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that seems to make sense.

 

[Jinx666]

Its not like my disliking to Weekly isnt justified (the abuse of rank, the annoying tag alongs),. And its not like it isnt shared either. I would talk about it but apparently we arent allowed to complain against staff. Which is a pretty bad rule. Anyway, I dont respect people like that in debating, but ill certainly try.

No, im not saying never upgrade Pink, im saying we wait for more concrete evidence that shes comparable, because the show is implying she isnt on the other diamonds level. And again, White Diamond was clearly the first diamond, and she made blue and yellow different sorts of diamonds, with specific heights, most likewy a superiority complex, while theres no reason Pink is smaller than yellow and blue.

No, defective can tie in with their strength, like ive proved. Skinny clearly isnt at the same strength as the other quartzes, if she was just as strong and capable of fulfilling a purpose, but not physically weak, then theres no reason why she would be so useless. And in the case with Jasper, its proven that formation quality ties in with their strength. Heck, again, Amethyst was depressed because she wasnt made in a way she was supposed to, and that was to be a strong warrior like Jasper.

And yes, alongside that, defectove also ties in with their mentality, their serving to thediamonda, their fusion tendencies, but with gems, all of that is programmed in when theyre being formwd. They all develop their knowledge and traits as soon as they form, and the fact gems would go against that would mean to assume theicr formation was glitched. But clearly their formation is directly proportional to their power. And as Pink is clealry being implied to not be a normal diamond, we should not jump the gun and assume shes as strong as blue or yellow, who are just hax based mainly anyway.

Overall, defective meams both of those things, but the show is clear on which gema are defective in which way. Pink can be considered both, since unlike blue and yellow, she isnt supposed to be that small, and WD has made herself the best for reasons, and the fact she betrayed homeworld. But that still doesnt mean shes comparable, amd therefore we cant assume shes immediately 6A, especially when shes shown nothing of being comparable. And therefore, we label her Unknown and possibly 6A. Cause no way in hell we can say Pink beats Lapis at this point.

And again with the game scaling? Secondary Canon needs backup, which is at least a statement in the official canon that refers to it occuring. As far as we're concerned, like Android 21, like other game characters, they dont exist. But to say Rose > Sugilite and Sardonyx is a stretch aswell, just because Hessonite, another game exclusive character, not mentioned at all or affecting anything, is equal to her is also pushing it. Secondary Canon is the canon thats on a borderline, which honestly needs confirmation for it to be considered equal just as much as its riskiness on whether or not it is contradictory. Its all game exclusive, its not official canon. The steven universe wiki itself thinks it is risky to consider the whole events in AtL games official, so I dont know why we think we can do that here. Especially when its a complete game changer. (I do, but for reasons ill refrain to say for the sake of non rustled jimmies.)

Seriously though, Rose would have finished this friggin war in seconds if she was so much stronger than both Sugilite and Sardonyx, which just sounds a bit extreme when she hasnt shown this evidence in anything but games. The high tiers power has been balanced on secondary canon this whole time? Sheesh.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree that we should generally only base our scaling on primary canon.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Ant The Games and Comics are primary canon, the creators of the show themselves have stated that theyre canon

 

[CursedGentleman]

...

It was stated by Ian JQ that is cano

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Jinx Disliking me does not justify attacking me for no reason and accusing me of things i dont do. Its all you do nowadays and you expect people to just accept it and then attack anyone who comes to my defense. Im sorry i have a life outside the wiki and dont have the time to always make extensive arguments to counter you, im sorry i have the ability to support the arguments of other people, im sorry people are allowed to agree with me and disagree with you. That doesnt give you the right to harass me.

Holly Blue says that literally all of the Earth Amethysts are useless despite being physically on par with normal quartzes solely because they act silly. Being defective almost never has anything to do with how strong a Gem is. Having a different mentality doesnt make a Gem physically weaker, this has never once been the case anywhere in the series. As for your comparison between the Diamonds, a boss can talk down to their employee even if theyre the same age and build, does this make the employee physically weaker?

The Diamonds themselves have shown nothing that Pink can show the ability to be comparable to, your arguing that she should show feats that live up to a standard that as of this moment does not even exist as the Diamonds are featless. Being defective almost never means they are physically weaker, and on he contrary, two different Gems that fuse are considered defective despite being STRONGER because of it.

Cursed has provided said statement. The Crewniverse has already stated that its level 2 canon which is canon until the show contradicts it, not the other way around. Rose has actual feats backing up being > Sugilite and Sardonyx so no its not a stretch, its what happened.

Considering Homeworld had Gems like Hessonite who are just as strong as Rose on top of outnumbering the Crystal Grms several hundred to one, no, she wouldnt have. Show proof that the information in the games has been contradicted by the show.

 

[Antvasima]

Jinx needs to make an effort to maintain a more polite attitude, yes. It is part of our regulations.

Never mind about the comics then.

 

[Jinx666]

You do tho Weekly. Outwardly denying things is yet another reason. Its not a friggin attack, and its not what I do cause I literally want to, I cant escape from crossing fate since we share like, 4 verses in common. And yet again, its not about whether people diagree or agree with me, its mainly about how you constantly ignore and purposefully force your own hand within these things, because no one other than you can be right. And its not a problem that you cant, its just a problem when you chicken out because you cant explain something, 'cuz you can'. Again, only the tip of the iceberg,, but dont act as if its completely unjustified, or use it to try and get out of giving actual responses. Domt expect me to respect that.

No, amethyst gems were originally made to serve Pink Diamond, and after she died, their only real purpose was to keep alive a legacy. And defective still does have something to do with weak gems. Again, the quality of their formation is dependent on their resources provided. Again, it means BOth and/or either their mentality and strength. So yes, there are examples of gems being defective due to being weaker, and therefore signified by height. When Pink Diamond is outwardly being implied to be weaker than the other diamonds, we shouldnt jump to the gun to say theyre comparable. Whats the literal problem with waiting?

The diamonds are still strongest arent they? At least what this wiki says, although the newly arisen probability of it all being down to hax. Theres still an implied established hierarchy even amongst the diamonds isnt there? Even if theyre featless and based off other feats, that doesnt mean we can scale PD off that fact. Heck, it turns out we've been scaling them off feats displayed by secondary canon, that have yet to be proved to exist. And defective still can mean being weaker. Thats the basis off Amethyst, Skinny, Carnelion most likely, and I dont know about you, but can you see any other ways PD could be defective, apart from this unknown wanting to flee HW that no one knew about. Its clearly implied she isnt as powerful and that shes rather on the short side, so whats honestly the problem with waiting till we inevitably see more PD power?

No, secondary canon was canon, not originally planned, nor does it tie in to the story, effectiely filler, (which usually isnt considered, but thats for manga and anime things), that is on the edge, and therefore needs EITHER confirmation it happened, like a statement on the show, just as much as it needs contradiction. Even the SU wiki is sketchy on tieing it in with canon, and quite frankly its NOTHING that can be compared at all to Level 1 canon. Theres a problem, with trying to equally intermingle level 1 and 2 canon as youre doing, on the sole fact that its all based off things that arent justified by an original canon. Besides, theres probably many ways that it contradicts the show, not that ive played it, but if that reason ever comes, it will completely shatter the logic here. Im confident I could find something tbh, but as if I have the time to watch a playthrough.

The only feats she has to justify that is in level 2 canon, which is shaky. Especially when fusions most likely had to be nerfed for the game, cause in reality they probably would stomp on anything comparable to base CGs. Plus, Sardonyx one shots a 5 way ruby fusion, Rose needs 3 hits, fairly casual (but sardonyx was casual aswell) to split a 5 way Ruby fusion. Is there anything in level 1 canon, that can justify such a significant statement, which is what we should depend on main canon exlusively.

Well, the show never recalls the significant occurances in AtL, theyre game exclusive, sexondary canon needs as much confirmation as it does contradiction otherwise we can apply any game feat to a show based on the fact it cant be contradicted. (Also Greg playing a guitar can hurt things equal to the gems, off the top of my head). and I believe Rebecca said in an interview that they were made exclusively for the game, suggesting that they dont tie in with the canon, since well, you cant just add in post made up on the spot info even if WoG implies. I could probably find that if I needed to, ask around, but this secondary canon completely justifying top tiers is a shaky problem that isnt being treated as if its like that, as if its completely 100% flawless reasoning. Plus swords that instantly OHKO gems physical forms exist in this verse, and Hessonites sword is fairly similar to Roses, you gotta admit, especially in the fact how it instantly destabilises gems and fusions in a single swipe. Hessonite was also brought to the attention of being a form of Garnet, which led Crewniverse to confirm how fusion gems can exist as singular gems, so if were going by the logic that all gem classes are comparable, she would only be comparable to actual garnet in that case, which I dont believe pesonally, but yet another reason why we cant always compare via gem class.

Roses sword literally negs gems durability aswell, so Rose cant really be justified due to how her army was winning despite outnumbering honestly. Gotta say, its hilarious that most top tier gems seem to be top tier only for the hax and powers they have, like Lapis, Aquamarine, Rose and her sword, and now the diamonds. Starting to think a cleanup project is required, we got physically featless gems being AP compared to hax and powers.

 

[Jinx666]

oh, and the statement literally below you tells you that games and comics arent primary canon.

 

[CursedGentleman]

But still counts, since is secondary canon.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

If you didnt want to we wouldnt be having this part of the conversation right now, even in this thread alone multiple people have told you to stop yet you continue. You were the one who instigated this confrontation in the first place. It is absolutely about people disagreeing with you, you have attacked people multiple times in the past for disagreeing with you, off the top of my head the worst instance so far was the Yang vs Kai fiasco where you outwardly attacked Ever and Kal for disagreeing with you and supporting me. I dont care if you respect me or not, but harassing me is completely unjustified.

Other than Amethyst show me one Gem that is simultaneously considered defective and demonstrably weaker as a result. And dont say Skinny or Carnelian because they have no proof of actually being weaker. Being mentally different doesnt make them physically weaker as a result, this has never once been the case. Where is Pink ever implied to be weaker? Scans are appreciated.

Every Gem who has ever talked about a Diamond sees them as unbeatable physically. This includes Pink Diamond as shown by the reactions of the Gems on Homeworld who still genuinely did not believe that Pink could actually be defeated. And im sorry but no, the secondary canon rule is it exists until its proven that it doesnt, not the other way around, the crewniverse themselves have stated this. This is not arguable. Show where Skinny and Carnelian are demonstrated to be weaker other than assumptions. Once again show where Pink is implied to be weaker, even a single instance of this will suffice. The problem is there is non reason to as there is more than enough evidence to give her proper scaling.

No, the secondary canon rule is it exists until its proven that it doesnt, not the other way around.

Youre comparing oneshotting one character to using three attacks to oneshot three character why exactly? That logic doesnt make any sense.

It doesnt matter if the show never recalls the games, unless something flat out contradicts it the games are to be considered canon. And Rebecca said no such thing, where are you getting that from? Nothing is shaky about perfectly logical scaling from canon feats other than the fact that you refuse to acknowledge them for some reason. Hessonite's sword is never once stated or even implied to be like Rose's, once again youre making assumptions. And youre ignorning the fact that two Gems can be different strengths despite being the same kind of Gem, like how Jasper is immensely stronger than normal Quartz soldiers.

Rose is not the only member of her army and certainly did not fight all of homeworld by herself so why youre even arguing this in the first place makes no sense. And Rose isnt her tier because of her sword, her sword is actually supposed to be changed to unknown because of the fact that it ignores durability. Nothing is wrong with the scaling other than, once again, your arguments solely based on disbelief.

 

[The_Everlasting]

I agree with Weekly.

 

[CursedGentleman]

As do I

 

[Js250476]

Triple yes for me

 

[Gojira1234]

Quadruple yes

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the issue seems to be settled then.

 

[Antvasima]

So, about Rainbow Quartz and Hessonite...

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Hessonite's tier is fine, she has more than enough feats to back up her current level and her sword is never implied to have the durability negating properties Rose's sword has.

Rainbow would be 'At least High 6-B, likely High 6-A'

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Feel free to make the appropriate changes then.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Ive made the adjustments

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks. Is there anything left to discuss here, or should we close this thread?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I believe thats everything

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will close this then.