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Hello all. Today I will be taking us down a wonderful path that shall seperate Karna into two keys, and shall give Artoria a new key.
To summerize, during Artoria's story in Fate/Extella, she matches and exceeds multiple characters, most notably, Gilgamesh and Tamamo no Mae. Both of whom are at their true power, with Gil being the same Gilgamesh from CCC, and Tamamo using her Moon Crux.
For Karna's side, well, there is simply no logical reason to not have a seperate key for his CCC key, since Servant Karna's Vasavi Shakti is not High 3-A or Low 2-C. As such, Karna should have seperate keys for each version, with his first key being noted as being his Servant/Weakened forms from both Apoc and CCC, and his second key being his full power form in CCC and Extella.
So, let's open the game.
Proposed Karna Revisions
As this is the simplest revision to make, it will be the one started with.
As I said earlier, Karna needs his profile seperated into two keys. His Noble Phantasm is not Universal+ in Apocrypha. In fact, I'd say it's likely only Island Level like other NPs, since it shows no more destrctuive power than something like Balmung or Clarent Blood Arthur. Granted, it can massively outmatch those Noble Phantasms, but to jump to it being Universal+ from there is ludicris.
This change is simple, and minor. Karna should recieve a seperate key for his CCC version, which should scale to people like BB, since she notes that she could not match up to him upon capturing Jinako. Granted, it's likely that he is below her, but his list of resistances was likely the main issue BB would have had. It should also be added that he likely has resistance to Subjective Reality, as BB considered him an actual threat, enough to take action and try to remove him from the field, albeit in an underhanded way.
So, to summerize:
1. Karna gets a new key for his CCC "Launcher" incarnation. It should scale to BB's AP. Vasavi Shakti, Brahmastra, and Brahmastra Kundala are noted as being higher than his regular power (At least High 3-A, likely Low 2-C. higher with Brahmastra and Brahmastra Kundala. Even higher with Vasavi Shakti).
2. Vasavi Shakti is rescaled to "At least 6-C, likely far higher" for Karna's servant/weakened forms.
3. Karna recieves a Possibly Resistance to Subjective Reality, as BB considered him enough of a threat to take underhanded action to remove him from the field. This implies she either would be at a disadvantage against him, or that she could not nullify his attacks, though this is never outright shown. The heavy illusion to it seems to be enough for at least a possibly.
Since that's mostly out of the way, let's get to the juicy bit
Artoria Excaliblasts the tier list
So, for anyone who hasn't played Extella, Artoria is summoned within this game by the Moon Cell to investigate and potentially stop the ongoing war between Altera, Tamamo, and Nero. In this form, she is noted as being at her peak. She has the same statistics as her self under Rin Tohsaka, and even has Avalon with her as a usable skill. But that's not what's important here.
What's important here, is exactly who she fights and defeats over the course of her story.
Firstly, Artoria defeats Moon Crux/Regalia equipped Tamamo. This alone is a feat in and of itself that puts her above the MMC Heroic spirits, and Above the likes of Moon Crux Nero and Tamamo, as it is implied that she defeated Tamamo quite easily. For context, here is the main piece after their fight.
Tamamo states that, even with the power of the Moon Crux/Regalia, she was overwhelmed and defeated by Artoria, and given Artoria's casual conversation, it is implied heavily that Artoria did this without much effort. Later on in the conversation, she notes that the Moon Cell is empowering her, which would explain why she is able to fight at such a level.
Later on, she fights a pitched battle with Gilgamesh, who is assited by Iskandar. During this encounter, Artoria notes that Gilgamesh is not a regular heroic spirit, and likens him to Altera . It is very likely that this is Gilgamesh in a similar form to his Full Power form at then end of CCC. Though, it is worth noting that this is somewhat up in the air as to whether it is Full Power Gil. Stil, given that she blatantly outmatches him, well... if it is, there's a good chunk of evidence.
And finally, while a bit more minor, Archimedes notes that Artoria is a major threat to his plans, and that she could defeat Altera's true form.
So, what does this change?
1. Artoria gets a new key, listed as "Moon Cell Empowered". This key directly scales to Tamamo-no-Mae with her Moon Crux, as Artoria defeated Moon Crux equipped Tamamo quite easily. As the main cast are able to defeat Titan Altera in her Velbar form, Artoria should be considered above this in her Moon Cell empowered key.
2. This key is able to resist any of Tamamo-no-Mae's hax from her Moon Crux form, and possesses Avalon. It is possible her resistances should be scaled to those of the three playable cast from CCC, as she is being amped by the moon cell, however, this is up for debate.
Conclusions (changes to be made)
The relative changes to made are simple. This is mostly piggybacking off of the Fate/Extra CCC rescale.
1. Change Karna's profile, seperating it into two keys. Karna's Launcher Key should be rated as "At least High 3-A, likely Low 2-C. Higher with Brahmastra and Brahmastra Kundala, even higher with Vasavi Shakti.
2. Add a new key for Artoria, rated as "At least High 3-A, likely Low 2-C, higher with Excalibur. The justification given in the AP section should be "significantly above Moon Crux Tamamo-no-Mae. Was considered a possible threat to Altera/Attila by Archimedes"
3. Possibly add resistance to Subjective Reality for Karna, and possibly add all of the resistances granted by fighting BB from the playable servant keys to Artoria's Moon Cell Empowered form. These are not neccesary changes, but they would make some sense given the source of Artoria's powers, and BB's dialogue with Karna in CCC.
That should be all. Thank you for your time.
To summerize, during Artoria's story in Fate/Extella, she matches and exceeds multiple characters, most notably, Gilgamesh and Tamamo no Mae. Both of whom are at their true power, with Gil being the same Gilgamesh from CCC, and Tamamo using her Moon Crux.
For Karna's side, well, there is simply no logical reason to not have a seperate key for his CCC key, since Servant Karna's Vasavi Shakti is not High 3-A or Low 2-C. As such, Karna should have seperate keys for each version, with his first key being noted as being his Servant/Weakened forms from both Apoc and CCC, and his second key being his full power form in CCC and Extella.
So, let's open the game.
Proposed Karna Revisions
As this is the simplest revision to make, it will be the one started with.
As I said earlier, Karna needs his profile seperated into two keys. His Noble Phantasm is not Universal+ in Apocrypha. In fact, I'd say it's likely only Island Level like other NPs, since it shows no more destrctuive power than something like Balmung or Clarent Blood Arthur. Granted, it can massively outmatch those Noble Phantasms, but to jump to it being Universal+ from there is ludicris.
This change is simple, and minor. Karna should recieve a seperate key for his CCC version, which should scale to people like BB, since she notes that she could not match up to him upon capturing Jinako. Granted, it's likely that he is below her, but his list of resistances was likely the main issue BB would have had. It should also be added that he likely has resistance to Subjective Reality, as BB considered him an actual threat, enough to take action and try to remove him from the field, albeit in an underhanded way.
So, to summerize:
1. Karna gets a new key for his CCC "Launcher" incarnation. It should scale to BB's AP. Vasavi Shakti, Brahmastra, and Brahmastra Kundala are noted as being higher than his regular power (At least High 3-A, likely Low 2-C. higher with Brahmastra and Brahmastra Kundala. Even higher with Vasavi Shakti).
2. Vasavi Shakti is rescaled to "At least 6-C, likely far higher" for Karna's servant/weakened forms.
3. Karna recieves a Possibly Resistance to Subjective Reality, as BB considered him enough of a threat to take underhanded action to remove him from the field. This implies she either would be at a disadvantage against him, or that she could not nullify his attacks, though this is never outright shown. The heavy illusion to it seems to be enough for at least a possibly.
Since that's mostly out of the way, let's get to the juicy bit
Artoria Excaliblasts the tier list
So, for anyone who hasn't played Extella, Artoria is summoned within this game by the Moon Cell to investigate and potentially stop the ongoing war between Altera, Tamamo, and Nero. In this form, she is noted as being at her peak. She has the same statistics as her self under Rin Tohsaka, and even has Avalon with her as a usable skill. But that's not what's important here.
What's important here, is exactly who she fights and defeats over the course of her story.
Firstly, Artoria defeats Moon Crux/Regalia equipped Tamamo. This alone is a feat in and of itself that puts her above the MMC Heroic spirits, and Above the likes of Moon Crux Nero and Tamamo, as it is implied that she defeated Tamamo quite easily. For context, here is the main piece after their fight.
Tamamo states that, even with the power of the Moon Crux/Regalia, she was overwhelmed and defeated by Artoria, and given Artoria's casual conversation, it is implied heavily that Artoria did this without much effort. Later on in the conversation, she notes that the Moon Cell is empowering her, which would explain why she is able to fight at such a level.
Later on, she fights a pitched battle with Gilgamesh, who is assited by Iskandar. During this encounter, Artoria notes that Gilgamesh is not a regular heroic spirit, and likens him to Altera . It is very likely that this is Gilgamesh in a similar form to his Full Power form at then end of CCC. Though, it is worth noting that this is somewhat up in the air as to whether it is Full Power Gil. Stil, given that she blatantly outmatches him, well... if it is, there's a good chunk of evidence.
And finally, while a bit more minor, Archimedes notes that Artoria is a major threat to his plans, and that she could defeat Altera's true form.
So, what does this change?
1. Artoria gets a new key, listed as "Moon Cell Empowered". This key directly scales to Tamamo-no-Mae with her Moon Crux, as Artoria defeated Moon Crux equipped Tamamo quite easily. As the main cast are able to defeat Titan Altera in her Velbar form, Artoria should be considered above this in her Moon Cell empowered key.
2. This key is able to resist any of Tamamo-no-Mae's hax from her Moon Crux form, and possesses Avalon. It is possible her resistances should be scaled to those of the three playable cast from CCC, as she is being amped by the moon cell, however, this is up for debate.
Conclusions (changes to be made)
The relative changes to made are simple. This is mostly piggybacking off of the Fate/Extra CCC rescale.
1. Change Karna's profile, seperating it into two keys. Karna's Launcher Key should be rated as "At least High 3-A, likely Low 2-C. Higher with Brahmastra and Brahmastra Kundala, even higher with Vasavi Shakti.
2. Add a new key for Artoria, rated as "At least High 3-A, likely Low 2-C, higher with Excalibur. The justification given in the AP section should be "significantly above Moon Crux Tamamo-no-Mae. Was considered a possible threat to Altera/Attila by Archimedes"
3. Possibly add resistance to Subjective Reality for Karna, and possibly add all of the resistances granted by fighting BB from the playable servant keys to Artoria's Moon Cell Empowered form. These are not neccesary changes, but they would make some sense given the source of Artoria's powers, and BB's dialogue with Karna in CCC.
That should be all. Thank you for your time.
