Servant Scaling (Moon Cell) - Downgrade Proposal

[MaxLevel_King]

Proposal: Many of the Servants on this wiki should have the Low 1-C Tier either removed or prefaced with "Only in the Moon Cell" as the scaling for Low 1-C only comes from feats accomplished in the Moon Cell and not anywhere else.

Argument for Low 1-C Tier: "Servants are nerfed by their Servant containers. Not only are Servants weakened compared to their living selves and the Heroic Spirit dwelling in the Root of Akasha, Gaia has counter-measures in place to prevent the World from being destroyed. In the Extraverse (Moon Cell), the Mythological Mystic Code Servants (Nero, Tamamo, Nameless, Gilgamesh) had their true power awakened and had a chance of winning against BB, a Low 1-C being who scales to the Moon Cell. Therefore, Regular Servants scale to their Moon Cell counterparts."

My Counter-Argument:
1. Not all Servants are nerfed by their Servant containers. Among the ones that are nerfed, they're not necessarily vastly weaker compared to when they were alive.

2. While Gaia does have counter-measures in place, it can't forcibly weaken Servants (Alaya) that it doesn't have a connection with. If a Servant possessed a Noble Phantasm capable of destroying the World, Gaia couldn't weaken that Noble Phantasm.

3. Da Vinci stated during the Shinjuku Pseudo-Singularity that there isn't a single Servant with a Noble Phantasm capable of destroying the Planet. She had already seen Gilgamesh's EA in use, which is an Anti-World Noble Phantasm.

4. There are no Servants that possess an "Anti-Planet" Noble Phantasm. There are Servants such as Gilgamesh that possess an Anti-World Noble Phantasm, but they can't actually destroy the World. Anti-World refers to the texture of reality that humans live on, not the Planet. Furthermore, the "Anti-" part doesn't necessarily mean capable of destroying, but simply effective against.

5. The rest of the Moon Cell Servants scale to the Mythological Mystic Code Servants who scale to BB. However, it was stated that even with the Mythological Mystic Code equipped, the Servants wearing them only had a 0.99% chance of winning against BB. Furthermore, regular Moon Cell Servants aren't comparable in power to Mythological Mystic Code Servants.

6. The Mythological Mystic Code doesn't awaken Servants to the power they had in life, it awakens them to the power of their Origin Concept, which is vastly superior to their living self.

7. Amaterasu was stated to be the strongest being in Extra (stronger than BB and Kiara) and her power level is equivalent to that of the Sun, as she literally is the Sun. Unlike the Divine Spirits of the Earth, she was stated to be of the Universe. A 4-C being was stated to be stronger than everyone in the Moon Cell.

8. Due to being inside a simulation of reality, Servants can exploit loopholes and bugs to do things that they aren't capable of in reality (outside of the Moon Cell).

9. The Moon Cell itself, ie the physical supercomputer on the moon isn't Low 1-C. What is Low 1-C are the simulated realities inside of the Moon Cell. The Authority that the Moon Cell has over it's simulated realities doesn't extend to outside of itself.

10. None of the Moon Cell Servants have feats remotely comparable to Low 1-C outside of the Moon Cell.

11. The highest calced feat for the Nasuverse is only 5-B (Arcueid Moon Drop).

12. Karna, one of the strongest Servants throughout the entire series, possess a Noble Phantasm that is only Anti-Country.

13. BB only has Low 1-C hax, she doesn't have Low 1-C durability.

 

[Iiliminal]

here before chaos

 

[Dereck03]

@Ubdon dish served, enjoy.

Also @MaxLevel_King, your op would need scans to back up your claims.

 

[RitsuØ1]

I disagree. Upgrade them to 1-S.

 

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

"Did you really expect me to agree on a downgrade that you don't bother putting some effort to give scans?"

But seriously, not everyone is a Nasu verse fans, and only a handful of staff knowldgeable on it. You need to put some scan for people to inspect other than your words.

 

[MaxLevel_King]

I'll edit in some scans and sources soon.

 

[RitsuØ1]

I'll edit in some scans and sources soon.

Good luck digging those scans. See you in one century.

 

[Hasty12345]

I agree, this scaling never made sense to me

 

[Tdjwo]

Someone seems mad that there's a possible Mooncell upgrade

Disagree FRA lol

 

[Paul_Frank]

Proposal: Many of the Servants on this wiki should have the Low 1-C Tier either removed or prefaced with "Only in the Moon Cell" as the scaling for Low 1-C only comes from feats accomplished in the Moon Cell and not anywhere else.

Argument for Low 1-C Tier: "Servants are nerfed by their Servant containers. Not only are Servants weakened compared to their living selves and the Heroic Spirit dwelling in the Root of Akasha, Gaia has counter-measures in place to prevent the World from being destroyed. In the Extraverse (Moon Cell), the Mythological Mystic Code Servants (Nero, Tamamo, Nameless, Gilgamesh) had their true power awakened and had a chance of winning against BB, a Low 1-C being who scales to the Moon Cell. Therefore, Regular Servants scale to their Moon Cell counterparts."

My Counter-Argument:
1. Not all Servants are nerfed by their Servant containers. Among the ones that are nerfed, they're not necessarily vastly weaker compared to when they were alive.

The majority are as a servant container is noted to be inherently limiting. Vastly weaker or not is relative, but this also has nothing to do with tier 1

2. While Gaia does have counter-measures in place, it can't forcibly weaken Servants (Alaya) that it doesn't have a connection with. If a Servant possessed a Noble Phantasm capable of destroying the World, Gaia couldn't weaken that Noble Phantasm.

This is just, wrong? It can in fact nerf them, it even actively crushes them, hence the need for masters to anchor them. Something being connected to Alaya doesn't mean Gaia is powerless and vice versa, they're equals, and servants as seen in wars aren't even connected to Alaya anyway

3. Da Vinci stated during the Shinjuku Pseudo-Singularity that there isn't a single Servant with a Noble Phantasm capable of destroying the Planet. She had already seen Gilgamesh's EA in use, which is an Anti-World Noble Phantasm.

Da Vinci specifically says this because of the planet's countermeasures yes, we see in that same chapter, that when those protections aren't present, Moriarty is going to destroy it with a meteor

4. There are no Servants that possess an "Anti-Planet" Noble Phantasm. There are Servants such as Gilgamesh that possess an Anti-World Noble Phantasm, but they can't actually destroy the World. Anti-World refers to the texture of reality that humans live on, not the Planet. Furthermore, the "Anti-" part doesn't necessarily mean capable of destroying, but simply effective against.

I guess Angra Mainyu/CCC doesn't exist now rip. This is a lot of incorrect stuff, but also has no relevance for the tier 1 downgrade

5. The rest of the Moon Cell Servants scale to the Mythological Mystic Code Servants who scale to BB. However, it was stated that even with the Mythological Mystic Code equipped, the Servants wearing them only had a 0.99% chance of winning against BB. Furthermore, regular Moon Cell Servants aren't comparable in power to Mythological Mystic Code Servants.

The mooncell servants in fact do not scale to MMC ones, no. Mooncell servants are in general, normal servant level, besides MMC, High Servants, and higher. The MMC ones had a sub 1% chance at beating BB, and then did that, and then beat Kiara right after, so scaling for them is very clear.

6. The Mythological Mystic Code doesn't awaken Servants to the power they had in life, it awakens them to the power of their Origin Concept, which is vastly superior to their living self.

There's nothing that points to this no, especially when for Gilgamesh for instance, the MMC is just his living form, very clearly, the same tattoos and everything.

7. Amaterasu was stated to be the strongest being in Extra (stronger than BB and Kiara) and her power level is equivalent to that of the Sun, as she literally is the Sun. Unlike the Divine Spirits of the Earth, she was stated to be of the Universe. A 4-C being was stated to be stronger than everyone in the Moon Cell.

Mentioning the sun here would be a good basis to downgrade, if we completely ignore Nasu Cosmology and assume the sun is baseline 4-C yes. But we luckily, don't ignore in series cosmology and context, so this argument is null

8. Due to being inside a simulation of reality, Servants can exploit loopholes and bugs to do things that they aren't capable of in reality (outside of the Moon Cell).

Another thing which just, means literally nothing for your thread?

9. The Moon Cell itself, ie the physical supercomputer on the moon isn't Low 1-C. What is Low 1-C are the simulated realities inside of the Moon Cell. The Authority that the Moon Cell has over it's simulated realities doesn't extend to outside of itself.

No, the mooncell itself is necessarily tier 1, as the dimensions are contained within it, it's not like its just creating an 8d wall with just hax or whatever, the statement is that the wall cuts through 8 dimensions, which means there are 8 dimensions inside it to begin with. Even assuming it was only the realities inside it, that still means the computer is above those realities, and those realities aren't like just computer simulations, given the events of the CCC incident in FGO, the fact that things inside it can affect the outside (wishes and chakravartin) and the fact that the timelines inside it are very much real, etc

10. None of the Moon Cell Servants have feats remotely comparable to Low 1-C outside of the Moon Cell.

Funny you say that, because they uhh, they just do, if you don't just say "earth so therefore 5-B, and Sun so therefore 4-C" for everything

11. The highest calced feat for the Nasuverse is only 5-B (Arcueid Moon Drop).

Calcs have literally no effect on tier 1 because any calc'd feat is several degrees of infinity below even baseline 5d, so this argument means literally nothing.

12. Karna, one of the strongest Servants throughout the entire series, possess a Noble Phantasm that is only Anti-Country.

And others have anti world or anti planet, another literal non argument, also didn't you just say above that anti x doesn't mean can destroy X? In that case, why assume that anti country means caps at country?

13. BB only has Low 1-C hax, she doesn't have Low 1-C durability.

This reads like you just read neither the profile nor threads and dislike the ratings

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Another atempted downgrade thread which uses the same tired arguments that people did in 2018, and still use now. If your thread's gonna have no scans, no quotes, and not gonna use new arguments, then I'll just save everyone's time.