Revising Tiamat (and possibly others?) part 2

[Escanor998]

Actually,it's a separated layer, but in the age of gods the reverse side didn't exist (as shown with the underworld, most things existed on the same layer until the age of man, when everything was transported to the reverse side) (also he only could do that because of the rules were ****** up a lot on that point because of the singularity)

 

[JBennett]

Mat you have yet to properly dissproven Escanor's post about how Ea truely works, even after I personally asked you to. So untill you can dissproven it your words don't have that much weight.

I'm not trying to be rude but you've yet to held up your work as we've been constantly requesting you to.

 

[JBennett]

The context of that statment makes it seems more along the lines of 'Alternante Dimensions' rather then a Higher Dimensional plane.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I have successfuly proven how Ea works, but you act like Escanor's unsorced walls of text are fact.

 

[Escanor998]

seems good, they seem more accurate and less speculitive when compared to the previous scaling. Though the High 7-A might change depending on what happens with the Excalibur feat.

They are not posting anything relevant on that thread for around a week

 

[JBennett]

I have successfuly proven how Ea works, but you act like Escanor's unsorced walls of text are fact.

Can you repost it then, or at least tell me where you post it. Cause I haven't seen it yet.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

The context of that statment makes it seems more along the lines of 'Alternante Dimensions' rather then a Higher Dimensional plane.

I can agree with you on that. its possible that Gods exist in a different realm than phantasmal beast. Overall, i believe the layers, or textures, are actually just overlapping worlds separate from earth, and certain beings can tear the boundries separating them with various means.

 

[JBennett]

Escanor998 w
They are not posting anything relevant on that thread for around a week

I'm aware that's why I said it might change if anythings does get done with it, but for now with how the current rating its fine.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2826306#49

Scroll down from here.

 

[JBennett]

I can agree with you on that. its possible that Gods exist in a different realm than phantasmal beast. Overall, i believe the layers, or textures, are actually just overlapping worlds separate from earth, and certain beings can tear the boundries separating them with various means.

Which contradicts our definition of Dimension here

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

you are confusing a higher dimension and a parrallel world/overalapping world.

 

[Escanor998]

seems good, they seem more accurate and less speculitive when compared to the previous scaling. Though the High 7-A might change depending on what happens with the Excalibur feat.

I found anither thing supporting 6-B tiamat, her Chaos Tide would have taken control of Babylonian's underworld had she not been stopped by merlin negating her authority. Kur was described as stretching all below Mesopotamia

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Tiamat would scale from Kiara anyways.

 

[Escanor998]

Why?

 

[JBennett]

In order of each one. "It was as if the planet itself had come into that location, and funneled a gigantic amount of mana into it. It was enough to delude one into thinking that Gaia, the Counter Force of the planet, was opposing Gilgamesh's power to destroy the World."

"

The key word in this statment if 'Delude' in other words 'makes it seems like' it's not saying that the planet is acting but rather the amount of mana being used makes it seems like it is but it's just Enkidu useing and absurde amount of mana, plus it's says the "Counter Force" which doesn't specifically needs a Planet Level threat to be needed, Araya from KnK is an example and he's not Planet level

"In the instant that an attack to destroy Eternity drew near— The planet sang. A gigantic amount of mana gushed forth at Enkidu's feet, and moved to swallow Enuma Elish head-on." That's not an indication that a Planet Level attack was being activated just a flufy metephore to describe what is happening "As the King of Heroes had spoken to Ea, so too did Enkidu speak to the massive amount of mana engulfing the Void cracks in space. He spoke directly to the planet. I am a weapon. Wield me as you please." Instantly, enough mana surged forth to make the earlier flow seem like a mere trickle. Several times more mana geysered from the earth's surface, becoming a cyclone of energy enveloping Enkidu's body. Then, the energy became a titanic lance of light to pierce Heaven and Earth, with the Heroic Spirit as its core." Again that's not an indication of a Planet Level attack but rather Enkidu asking the Planet to supply it's Mana to help supply Enkidu Enuma. Using Mana as a source isn't a new concept in Fate as it was common practice during the Age of Gods, even modern Maguses use Mana as a power source, the only reason Enidu is able to use so much is due to connection with the Earth as a Mud Doll created by the Gods so he is able to use more then most Maguses can.

As a fair warning I am unsure how to change this post to a regular post compared from what it is was before, I apologize of any inconviniance it may cause.

 

[JBennett]

you are confusing a higher dimension and a parrallel world/overalapping world.

I am aware of the difference between them and Layers falls more in line with overlapping worlds then an 'Axis of movement'.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Just as a heads up, I already laid out the issues with the quotes I posted.

Going off of strangefake, the quotes I posted were poor evidence looking back at this. Many of the quotes were from the masters in the war who were mostly speaking in metaphor and even then didn't directly equate the two, and even the narrator quotes don't associate the two. Planet is used to describe what is powering Enkidu's attack, World is used to describe what Ea is threatening to destroy. There isn't any overlap, tbh.

I'd like a direct contradiction of the World = Planet cosmological whatever; as it doesn't seem to be contradicted in strangefake.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

snip

i have more on regarding this but its late here so i'll have to post about it tomorrow.

 

[Escanor998]

snip

Actually, his own Enuma Elish just draws power from the counter force to stop an attack, its power rising the more powerful the attack (hence why it's an anti-purge defence), but it works A la counter-force, giving just enough energy to match and stop the attack, or even to slightly overpower it, but nothing else, for example if Enkidu used EE against a fly, do you think the planet would send a 5-B amount? No (but i don't really have a problem with Enkidu's own EE scaling up to 5-B because it's power rises in response to he threath and acts as a spear of the counter force)

 

[JBennett]

Which makes the point of using the Counter Force as evidence of Planet level Ea questionable to due the nature of the Counter Force. Enkidu could be fine as a High End but it doesn't really Support Ea since that would requier what the original output to counter and that would be a bit obsolite( or is more counterintuitive?) to use the 'Counter' to support the 'Effect' of an unknown 'cause'.

 

[Escanor998]

i know

Mat, why would Tiamat scale to Kiara in any way other than fighting gil when she was obsenely weakened

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

@Escanor Please refrain from quoting long posts; it clutters the thread.

 

[Paul_Frank]

I just want to clarify

The counter force gives the amount of energy enkidu would need to beat his target.

Enkidu didnt beat Gil in strange fake he managed to tie him and repair the damage done to the world

The fact Enkidu didnt actually beat Gilgamesh with his Enuma Elish means that Ea is at least as powerful as the max limits of the counterforce

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

Never been stated. Gil boosts Enuma Elish with GoB for the second clash yet Enkidu counters it just fine. Enkidu also countered Enuma Elish in their battle during the Age of Gods, which was stated to be far stronger than Servant Gil's version.

Plus in SF, FGO mats and his FGO profile there is no mention that Enkidu's Enuma Elish works like Arc's backup. We just know that Enkidu channels the Counter Force and that it gains power boost vs specific stuff.

 

[Escanor998]

@Escanor Please refrain from quoting long posts; it clutters the thread.

Any news about the Cosmology Blog?

 

[Ozy_the_God-King]

Would shiro have won if Gil was replaced with Ozy in UBW?

 

[JBennett]

Nah, he would of been killed in an instant. Ozy despite being as arragont as Gil is more likely to go for the kill, not only that but Shirou has a natural counter to Gil when he mastered his Tracing I don't believe it would worked againts Ozy even with UBW.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Matt, I really hope you stop thinking that sticking to your guns and not backing down on your interpretation of things suddenly means that interpretation is correct no matter what.

I am also a bit worried that you'd try and use the Strange Fake manga as sufficient proof.

Like, how much do you actually know the setting? What conception do you have about the World of Human Awareness to decide destroying that should be a bigger feat than destroying the planet? How can you even try and say Enkidu using the support of the Counter Force places Ea at planet level wen the Counter Force doesn't use more force than needed ever? If Enkidu's Ea grows in power by the number of destructive deeds of the target against the World, which Gil has none, is it gonna pull energy out of nowhere against a target that has them? Did he pull even more energy out of nowhere and everywhere when he clashed with his Ea when they were both alive and Ea was far more powerful? There's just a lot wrong and contradicting with your conclusion.


And for the life of me I'll never understand the Higher Dimension angle. Gods, when becoming weaker and losing physical bodies to turn into Divine Spirits, go to a "higher dimension" and become unable no matter what to affect the physical world directly.

Higher dimensional... weaker... unable to affect a lower dimension... I hope the evident problem is evident.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

its directly stated in Enkindus profile in strange fake that both Alaya, and Gaia will empower her when the planet is threaten. Meaning Gilgamesh was capable of threatening the planet with Ea.

The Gods needs avatars such as Rin, Sakura, taiga and otehr unknown indiviuals to be able to manifest fully into the age of man. The point of bring up higher dimensions is to show that "the reverse side" is a completely separate dimension and not connected to earth.

 

[JBennett]

I have to ask Up but do you know what the actual definition of Dimensions? I only ask due to a privious comment you made saying that the different texture are overlaping worlds but still conciders them Dimensions, because Dimensions are not over lapping worlds.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I see the game we are trying to play, but Astolfo's Noble Phantasm description clearly states that "The Reverse Side of The World' is a completely separate, and alterante dimension/world. That is not connected to 2018 earth. Fate/Extella Link's Astolfo's noble phantasm descritpion also says the samething with different wording.

 

[JBennett]

I am not trying to imply something I'm simply trying to see if were are on the same page. You acnknoweldge that Textures are overlaping worlds however that doesn't follow our definition of Dimension.

Important note:
Within this wiki it is not acceptable, and considered confusing, to use the term for anything other than spatial and temporal dimensions.

This includes inappropriately using it for universes, pocket universes, realms, worlds, or realities, etcetera.

the explanation from Holms makes them seem like they are Pocket universes or realms since the area they all reside in is just on the planets surface where as dimension expands all over Reality, a world of 2-D in one place isn't suddenly a whole different reality compared to another 2-D world in another space in reality. Our 3-D world isn't a different reality compared to the 2-D world of printed paper.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Are you trying to argue aganist all the evidence i provided and say they are on the same planet despite Astolfo's Noble phantasm directly stating he is summoning hippograff from an alternate dimension that is directly stated by multiple media sources to be an another dimension entirely? They don't share the same planet after the age of Gods ended as directly stated by ishtar they all became metaphysical and no longer exist on the same layer of scroll during the age of man.

This clearly denotes that they are separated by a defined dimensional boundry showing that it is an alternate universe, and is not apart of the same planet earth.

 

[JBennett]

As I said Astolfo's NP makes it seems more like alternante Realities rather then Higher and Lower Dimensions.

Also I'm not entierly sure if we should take Ishtar's word as accurate considering that Gods of Fate shouldn't really have great knowledge on very specifice infomration of Science like spacial Dimensions, considering the fact that Gods don't really follow scientific logic or that such knowledge wasn't even conceived during that Era, though thats just my opnion.

Besides they didn't leave to the Reverse side due to being weakened but rather due to the deteration of Mystery, the concept that powers all forms of supernatrual effects within Nasuverse which includes Phantasmal Beasts,Maguses, 3-D wepons, and many others.

 

[JBennett]

This clearly denotes that they are separated by a defined dimensional boundry showing that it is an alternate universe, and is not apart of the same planet earth.

Which doesn't follow our definition, " The official scientific definition of a dimension is an axis of movement, such as height, length, and width".

Alternate Universes do not fall in that definition.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

someone like Quet (i can't spell her name) knows about the law of conversation of mass. We also have more statements from romani, and Da Vanci stating gods come from a higher plane multiple times. Ishtar is also one of the most knowledgable people in babylon as we do learn a lot from her.

However, my point I am trying to make is that they no longer share the same planet so we cannot use the layers (A.k.a The reverse side of the world) to downgrade gilgamesh.

How does it not fit when it is clearly a different universe/world altogther? Dimension in this stance is being used to talk about another universe.

Can dimension not mean Universe?

 

[JBennett]

Important note:

Within this wiki it is not acceptable, and considered confusing, to use the term for anything other than spatial and temporal dimensions.

This includes inappropriately using it for universes, pocket universes, realms, worlds, or realities, etcetera.

Unfortunately, it is common within fiction, particularly North American superhero comicbooks, to misuse the term in such contexts.[1]

Because thats not how dimensions work, a 2-D world isn't suddenly in a different universe then a 3-D world. Multiple Dimensional worlds can reside within the same Reality, 2-D pictures are not alternate realities.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I do not see the point you are trying to make? I stand by my point that the reverse side of the world is completely separate, and cut off from Earth, and is not applicable for downgrading gilgamesh. There is evidence supporting it. Even if the usage of the word "dimension" is some how wrong. The intention of calling "the reverse side" a separate universe is clearly there, and it is separated by a defined dimensional border than Astolfo's Hippograff bypasses.

 

[JBennett]

No one is saying that the Layers are not seperate realities, what we are saying is that the realities are not stated to be as large as a full universe and in fact just simply wraps around the physical planet. There is no actual information of how large they are so at the most we can assume they are the size of the Planets surface since they cover the surface.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Do you agree that they are not applicable in downgrading gilgamesh?