Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 2 of ????)

[DontTalkDT]

@DontTalkDT Mein friend, we're waiting on your response to this new development.

Sorry for the delay. As nobody quoted me I kinda missed that I was addressed. Haven't been around too much the last few days at that.

Realistically speaking, the bulk of the revision is not going to be significantly affected by the results of this discussion, at least for the higher-end characters. The verse already has a 1-A+ hierarchy that several characters transcend, so, High 1-A will be a thing regardless (Not to mention the cosmology stuff is largely in-verse factors that were already agreed upon, anyway)

So, I'll confess that at this point I am arguing purely out of disagreement with the counterpoints raised, rather than anything else. While I personally want to continue the discussion, if this approach is deemed unproductive (Which it likely is), I've no issue with finding another avenue.

Why would those be High 1-A rather than higher into 1-A+?

Like, they have to not transcend a 1-A+ hierarchy, but the logical framework of such hierarchies. (that ideally would not be significantly more limited than ZFC)

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Why would those be High 1-A rather than higher into 1-A+?

Like, they have to not transcend a 1-A+ hierarchy, but the logical framework of such hierarchies. (that ideally would not be significantly more limited than ZFC)

I'd say such a thing is indeed what happens here. Conceptually speaking, the point of High 1-A (As I think you've been told not that long ago) is pretty much that the character transcends lesser states of existence to the extent that they exist in a new hierarchy of [whatever] altogether, and not just in an extension of an already-existing hierarchy.

Higher into 1-A+ (1-A++?) would be if you took a hierarchy and, say, added an "infinitieth" (or ω-th if you prefer) level to it. High 1-A is when you're fundamentally above what the hierarchy is to begin with. Quite a few characters abide by that definition, presently. The Ultimate Gods from Cthulhu Mythos are an example, and I believe so is the Law of Identity from Daimaou?

And, for reference, the hierarchy inside the inner omniverse works on a system of "dreams within dreams." Outside the omniverse, however, you transcend all levels of reality and dream, so what I said above does hold here.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I'd say such a thing is indeed what happens here. Conceptually speaking, the point of High 1-A (As I think you've been told not that long ago) is pretty much that the character transcends lesser states of existence to the extent that they exist in a new hierarchy of [whatever] altogether, and not just in an extension of an already-existing hierarchy.

Higher into 1-A+ (1-A++?) would be if you took a hierarchy and, say, added an "infinitieth" (or ω-th if you prefer) level to it. High 1-A is when you're fundamentally above what the hierarchy is to begin with. Quite a few characters abide by that definition, presently. The Ultimate Gods from Cthulhu Mythos are an example, and I believe so is the Law of Identity from Daimaou?

And, for reference, the hierarchy inside the inner omniverse works on a system of "dreams within dreams." Outside the omniverse, however, you transcend all levels of reality and dream, so what I said above does hold here.

I can only comment on the Law of Identity case and that specifically transcends the logical framework of R>F hierarchies in that it is explained to be, by its very nature, above every possible level of fiction.

And the explanation for the Tiering System explicitly mentions a logical framework. I don't think it makes any sense to equate a hierarchy that is factually vastly smaller than ZFC to large cardinals, if it's just mere transcendence above the hierarchy, instead of all the logical extensions of it. That would allow factually smaller hierarchies to get vastly higher rankings, by just having different kinds of levels of infinity.

What Marvel is concerned... well, the scan says above all levels of dreams, but I would assume that just means the actual hierarchy?

 

[Eseseso]

1. I agree with Ultima, although tbf my knowledge of tier 1 stuff is limited. You can't have a tier "1-A++".

2. Is there any way for this last argument (which looks like it'll be another back and forth) to be settled in another thread, or for Part 2.5. to already be started?

I just don't want to have to wait yet another month just because of this one point which may not even get resolved.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I can only comment on the Law of Identity case and that specifically transcends the logical framework of R>F hierarchies in that it is explained to be, by its very nature, above every possible level of fiction.

And the explanation for the Tiering System explicitly mentions a logical framework. I don't think it makes any sense to equate a hierarchy that is factually vastly smaller than ZFC to large cardinals, if it's just mere transcendence above the hierarchy, instead of all the logical extensions of it. That would allow factually smaller hierarchies to get vastly higher rankings, by just having different kinds of levels of infinity.

What Marvel is concerned... well, the scan says above all levels of dreams, but I would assume that just means the actual hierarchy?

There really isn't much of a distinction between what you say and what I am talking about. The Law of Identity, I would assume, does not get her High 1-A rating because of the size of the hierarchy (or theoretical hierarchy) she transcends, but because she is above the "quality" by which it is defined (R-F layers, in this case). I doubt you'd equate "all possible layers of fiction" to "As many layers as there are cardinals in ZFC," so clearly you're not making a quantitative argument there.

So the point is moreso that her kind of transcendence is a new one, which is fundamentally above the kind by which the hierarchy below functions. So, again, new hierarchy, not an extension of the previous one. That's largely what High 1-A is based on; the math is secondary.

Same deal here. The multiversal hierarchy works on a system of dreams within dreams, but outside of the omniverse, that metric is completely surpassed (Or else it wouldn't be beyond all levels of dreams, just another level of dream), and there's just the machinery that brings it into existence instead.

 

[Eseseso]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

I will remind DontTalk again.

Are there any significant remaining current disagreements between him and Ultima, or can this revision be applied in the meantime and possibly adjusted later, as Ultima seems to be running out of time?

 

[Eseseso]

@Ultima_Reality

Would it be possible for Part 2.5 to be started already?

Also, this may be too late to ask, but if Slorioth is "beyond" infinite dimensions, wouldn't he be Low 1-A for being "above" a High 1-B continuum?

And that would make the Low 1-A people who scale to Eternity all 1-A for transcending Slorioth.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Also, this may be too late to ask, but if Slorioth is "beyond" infinite dimensions, wouldn't he be Low 1-A for being "above" a High 1-B continuum?

And that would make the Low 1-A people who scale to Eternity all 1-A for transcending Slorioth.

"Beyond" as a word doesn't imply qualitative superiority without further context.

 

[DontTalkDT]

There really isn't much of a distinction between what you say and what I am talking about. The Law of Identity, I would assume, does not get her High 1-A rating because of the size of the hierarchy (or theoretical hierarchy) she transcends, but because she is above the "quality" by which it is defined (R-F layers, in this case). I doubt you'd equate "all possible layers of fiction" to "As many layers as there are cardinals in ZFC," so clearly you're not making a quantitative argument there.

The point is that she is not just above the actual hierarchy in the verse, but above its logical framework. That is the distinction the Tiering System makes.

So the point is moreso that her kind of transcendence is a new one, which is fundamentally above the kind by which the hierarchy below functions. So, again, new hierarchy, not an extension of the previous one. That's largely what High 1-A is based on; the math is secondary.

Same deal here. The multiversal hierarchy works on a system of dreams within dreams, but outside of the omniverse, that metric is completely surpassed (Or else it wouldn't be beyond all levels of dreams, just another level of dream), and there's just the machinery that brings it into existence instead.

I see a difference there. It's one thing to just have another kind of transcendance above a hierarchy and being transcendent to the hierarchy's logical framework.

For example:
Assume a character has a 1-A+ dimensional hierarchy and transcends that via a R>F hierarchy, but then it turns out there is a higher level of the dimensional hierarchy, which still transcends the character.
Such a character transcends a 1-A+ hierarchy by a different kind of transcendance, but it doesn't transcend its logical framework. It is still bound by dimensional logic.

Like look at the Tiering System definition precisely:

can affect structures that are larger than what the logical framework defining 1-A and below can allow

It's specifically being above what can possibly be allowed by the logical framework, not just above the actual hierarchy.


You are absolutely right when you say I don't consider those frameworks and ZFC equal anyway. That's one of my gripes with the Tiering System. But that's the current rules. Gotta play by the rules.

 

[Eseseso]

Bump

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I'm sorry but the argument between you and DT has been a back and forth with neither side conceding, and it doesn't seem like that'll change. As for staff, asides from Ant there aren't that many who seem that involved in this thread and/or knowledgeable about the cosmology of Marvel.

There were plenty of staff members participating on this thread before. If needed, they can just be called back. No biggie there.

Overall, I'd appreciate if regular users refrained from further commenting from here and onwards. Any further derailing will be deleted.

I see a difference there. It's one thing to just have another kind of transcendance above a hierarchy and being transcendent to the hierarchy's logical framework.

For example:
Assume a character has a 1-A+ dimensional hierarchy and transcends that via a R>F hierarchy, but then it turns out there is a higher level of the dimensional hierarchy, which still transcends the character.
Such a character transcends a 1-A+ hierarchy by a different kind of transcendance, but it doesn't transcend its logical framework. It is still bound by dimensional logic.

That point only really applies if you assume that the "different kind of transcendence" is just that, different, but not completely above, the kind of transcendence defining the lower hierarchy. By extension, meaning that the lower hierarchy could reach a level comparable to the one above if it were hypothetically expanded.

It hardly works here, since Marvel's cosmology works by a process where creation works by a process of self-limitation starting from above. That is to say, whatever is created or formed in the omniverse first goes through the layers outside of it, which are more "rarified" planes where creation is still underway but hasn't manifested yet. Those planes are not just different from the omniverse's hierarchy in their trancendence, but are indeed completely above the nature of it. It's not like the hierarchy could be potentially expanded to reach them, because how primal and basic they are in relation to the things below is directly related to their transcendence over them.

Not to mention your hypothetical is also just very strange (Bordering on nonsensical, I would say). The character transcends a 1-A+ dimensional hierarchy and yet there is a level of that same hierarchy which transcends them? Sounds like they just don't transcend the hierarchy to begin with.

You are absolutely right when you say I don't consider those frameworks and ZFC equal anyway. That's one of my gripes with the Tiering System. But that's the current rules. Gotta play by the rules.

Yet the arguments you've done still show traces of these gripes of yours, like you saying "The hierarchy ideally shouldn't be significantly more limited than ZFC" (That's not the case, transcending even a countably infinite amount of layers is High 1-A if done correctly), or "This means that we'd allow even hierarchies factually smaller than ZFC to reach higher tiers!" (Only "factually smaller" in terms of layer count, and you yourself acknowledge that, with regards to High 1-A, that's not really everything we use to evaluate things)

So, the rules don't terribly support any of your points, regardless, and neither does the existing precedent.

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT

It would be good if you prioritise finishing this discussion, as Ultima's available time seems to be running out.

 

[DontTalkDT]

That point only really applies if you assume that the "different kind of transcendence" is just that, different, but not completely above, the kind of transcendence defining the lower hierarchy. By extension, meaning that the lower hierarchy could reach a level comparable to the one above if it were hypothetically expanded.

I agree.

It hardly works here, since Marvel's cosmology works by a process where creation works by a process of self-limitation starting from above. That is to say, whatever is created or formed in the omniverse first goes through the layers outside of it, which are more "rarified" planes where creation is still underway but hasn't manifested yet. Those planes are not just different from the omniverse's hierarchy in their trancendence, but are indeed completely above the nature of it. It's not like the hierarchy could be potentially expanded to reach them, because how primal and basic they are in relation to the things below is directly related to their transcendence over them.

Can you show a scan that says that creatures beyond the hierarchy of dreams can, by nature, not be part of any theoretical higher dreams?

Not to mention your hypothetical is also just very strange (Bordering on nonsensical, I would say). The character transcends a 1-A+ dimensional hierarchy and yet there is a level of that same hierarchy which transcends them? Sounds like they just don't transcend the hierarchy to begin with.

I don't really see how that argument would be strange. A creature can be above an infinite hierarchy of dreams yet still part of some higher entities' dream.

Yet the arguments you've done still show traces of these gripes of yours, like you saying "The hierarchy ideally shouldn't be significantly more limited than ZFC" (That's not the case, transcending even a countably infinite amount of layers is High 1-A if done correctly), or "This means that we'd allow even hierarchies factually smaller than ZFC to reach higher tiers!" (Only "factually smaller" in terms of layer count, and you yourself acknowledge that, with regards to High 1-A, that's not really everything we use to evaluate things)

So, the rules don't terribly support any of your points, regardless, and neither does the existing precedent.

When I say ideally that was supposed to express that this isn't a necessary criteria. Knowing that the logical framework isn't just 5 levels of infinity big is just making things look a lot more reasonable.

For the other thing, I don't think I'm contradicting myself at all. The spirit behind the logical system thing was, in my understanding, to count above how many different "natures" (i.e. types of hierarchies) the character is and equalize those different natures of hierarchies in scale. Point of the example is that you can have a mixed hierarchy that is factually not larger than the nature of any one of them. (The logical framework of the dimensional hierarchy is ZFC) Mixed hierarchies, yes, but not above the logical system of any of them, even if we equalize them.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I don't really see how that argument would be strange. A creature can be above an infinite hierarchy of dreams yet still part of some higher entities' dream.

It can't, no. If there's a system of layers defined by the kind of interrelationship they have with each other (Dreams, dimensions, and etc), then, as far as we are concerned, the "hierarchy" is the entirety of that, not whatever arbitrary subdivisions of it. If you have an infinite series of dreams and then a last dream ontop of it, that last dream is not above the hierarchy of dreams, it's a part of it.

When I say ideally that was supposed to express that this isn't a necessary criteria. Knowing that the logical framework isn't just 5 levels of infinity big is just making things look a lot more reasonable.

For the other thing, I don't think I'm contradicting myself at all. The spirit behind the logical system thing was, in my understanding, to count above how many different "natures" (i.e. types of hierarchies) the character is and equalize those different natures of hierarchies in scale. Point of the example is that you can have a mixed hierarchy that is factually not larger than the nature of any one of them. (The logical framework of the dimensional hierarchy is ZFC) Mixed hierarchies, yes, but not above the logical system of any of them, even if we equalize them.

By your own logic, it wouldn't really be any more reasonable one way or another. You know full well how much larger "All cardinals" is than "Infinite layers," quantity-wise.

The rest I feel is already covered by the above, so, moving on.

Can you show a scan that says that creatures beyond the hierarchy of dreams can, by nature, not be part of any theoretical higher dreams?

To explain roughly how it works:

The functioning of the cosmology from the outer omniverse and upwards (The spheres that are collectively called "the Mystery") hinges on a succession of levels, which aren't solely realms or places as much as they are states. They're stages which the essence of the Godhead passes through before it finally manifests as reality. These stages are:

The House of Ideas = There's nothing here, no structure, just God's oneness.

The Land of Can-Be-Shall-Be/Couldn't-Be-Shouldn't-Be = Everything is still just a possibility (This scan also informs how the spheres in general work, in conjunction with this one, from the same story)

White-Hot Room = Ocean of unmanifest energy. Form doesn't exist here, yet, just raw material (The "flame of becoming") which permits the transition between possibility and actuality. This is still totally abstract, obviously, but it's the first level where some kind of "substance" starts to be a thing.

The Beyond = Reality kinda is here, but not as below. It's basically the level where the multiverse starts being designed and sketched out (By drawing from the aforementioned raw material), so here it's reduced to just a blueprint ready to be projected downwards.

Far Shore = Void that serves as a bridge between the omniverse and above. The concept of "reality" and "existence" ceases to be here, and everything that the omniverse is, isn't.

Neutral Zone = The outer omniverse. This is the backdrop for all the layers of reality, and is a "liminal space" whose nature is in-between that of reality and that of what lies outside. It's kinda a bit of both.

So, like I mentioned before, each descending realm is more concrete, less rarefied, more manifest. There can't exist higher dreams that reach these higher planes because reaching such a level would necessitate a return to these more primal states, and since said states are prior to the formation of the hierarchy of dreams/worlds (Because the void is God's dreamless sleep), by definition its layers can't extend there.

And to avoid concerns like "Existing prior to something doesn't mean being superior to it": The position of each realm in their hierarchy is dictated by the degree of unmanifestation they stand in (So for example the White-Hot Room is above the Beyond because it's a less congealed and more primordial facet of the Godhead), so, them being "prior" to the stuff below them is indeed synonymous with their transcendence over it in this case, as said

For analogy's sake: If reality is an ice cube, then having it transcend its current state and reach the stuff above wouldn't be increasing the ice cube's mass but just melting it back down to water. Saying that the hierarchy of dreams could reach the higher planes if it were expanded by one layer would be like saying that you can return the ice back into water by enlarging its size.

---

Since this thread has gone on for long enough and time keeps shrinking, also. I'll just let the final verdict hang on a vote tally, whether or not DT and I come to an agreement. I'll be calling back the admins that inputted here before, though everyone else is free to chime in as well.

@Sir_Ovens @Maverick_Zero_X @ByAsura @Qawsedf234

Hihi. Can you all read the thread starting from here and then here? The former leads to my explanations on the current state of affairs and the latter to a relatively short discussion, so, shouldn't take long at all.

 

[DontTalkDT]

It can't, no. If there's a system of layers defined by the kind of interrelationship they have with each other (Dreams, dimensions, and etc), then, as far as we are concerned, the "hierarchy" is the entirety of that, not whatever arbitrary subdivisions of it. If you have an infinite series of dreams and then a last dream ontop of it, that last dream is not above the hierarchy of dreams, it's a part of it.

For a start, that wouldn't change that the character is above a 1-A+ hierarchy, as the removal of that 1 level will not change the prior thing to a lesser tier. If you remove 1 level from an infinite 1-A hierarchy, you still have an infinite 1-A hierarchy. So it doesn't change the fact that a character can transcend an infinite 1-A hierarchy by 1 level and yet have a level above that. That the infinite hierarchy mentioned in the fiction would somehow cover the extra 2 levels is a rather arbitrary assumption. It would be weird to believe that a hierarchy can not have sub-hierarchies.

Also, think in terms of ordinals. If you enumerate the levels then the infinite hierarchy has natural numbers, a dream level above that would be omega and a dream level above that would be omega +1. In terms of ordering omega is special in that it has no predecessor, by which one can tell it apart. Similarly, a dream level above an infinite hierarchy would have no predecessor. So you can actually distinguish between the two cases in fiction.

By your own logic, it wouldn't really be any more reasonable one way or another. You know full well how much larger "All cardinals" is than "Infinite layers," quantity-wise.

Decide whether we go by the word of the current rules or by how I would like things to be. I'm currently arguing by current rules.

By word of the current rules, you have to prove that it isn't just above a hierarchy, but above the logical system of it. As you said yourself, you would need to show that the lower hierarchy couldn't reach a level comparable to the one above if it were hypothetically expanded. (Which kinda just makes sense when we acknowledge that hierarchies can be extended)

By my opinion you have the additional problem that even then the systems aren't equivalent in size... but that is not something I'm currently taking into consideration as it's not the current rules.

The Land of Can-Be-Shall-Be/Couldn't-Be-Shouldn't-Be = Everything is still just a possibility (This scan also informs how the spheres in general work, in conjunction with this one, from the same story)

This mentions concepts are in the Arbiter. I thought they were the Superflow?

White-Hot Room = Ocean of unmanifest energy. Form doesn't exist here, yet, just raw material (The "flame of becoming") which permits the transition between possibility and actuality. This is still totally abstract, obviously, but it's the first level where some kind of "substance" starts to be a thing.

The Beyond = Reality kinda is here, but not as below. It's basically the level where the multiverse starts being designed and sketched out (By drawing from the aforementioned raw material), so here it's reduced to just a blueprint ready to be projected downwards.

Far Shore = Void that serves as a bridge between the omniverse and above. The concept of "reality" and "existence" ceases to be here, and everything that the omniverse is, isn't.

Neutral Zone = The outer omniverse. This is the backdrop for all the layers of reality, and is a "liminal space" whose nature is in-between that of reality and that of what lies outside. It's kinda a bit of both.

So, like I mentioned before, each descending realm is more concrete, less rarefied, more manifest. There can't exist higher dreams that reach these higher planes because reaching such a level would necessitate a return to these more primal states, and since said states are prior to the formation of the hierarchy of dreams/worlds (Because the void is God's dreamless sleep), by definition its layers can't extend there.

And to avoid concerns like "Existing prior to something doesn't mean being superior to it": The position of each realm in their hierarchy is dictated by the degree of unmanifestation they stand in (So for example the White-Hot Room is above the Beyond because it's a less congealed and more primordial facet of the Godhead), so, them being "prior" to the stuff below them is indeed synonymous with their transcendence over it in this case, as said

For analogy's sake: If reality is an ice cube, then having it transcend its current state and reach the stuff above wouldn't be increasing the ice cube's mass but just melting it back down to water. Saying that the hierarchy of dreams could reach the higher planes if it were expanded by one layer would be like saying that you can return the ice back into water by enlarging its size.

For the most part I don't see why in principle there can't be a dream of unmanifest energy or similar. Dreams themselves are rather abstract things.

And in terms of your water analogy: While an ice cube can't be water by getting larger, water is not superior due being a liquid. If you can make the cube larger than the water, the water being liquid doesn't make it more impressive.



Anyway, as usual I'm fine with people just voting.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

For a start, that wouldn't change that the character is above a 1-A+ hierarchy, as the removal of that 1 level will not change the prior thing to a lesser tier. If you remove 1 level from an infinite 1-A hierarchy, you still have an infinite 1-A hierarchy. So it doesn't change the fact that a character can transcend an infinite 1-A hierarchy by 1 level and yet have a level above that. That the infinite hierarchy mentioned in the fiction would somehow cover the extra 2 levels is a rather arbitrary assumption. It would be weird to believe that a hierarchy can not have sub-hierarchies.

It would not be an arbitrary assumption at all, no. A hierarchy is defined by the system of relationships between the ranks of it. If I have a 3-dimensional space contained by a 4-dimensional space and then add a 5-dimensional space around both, that 5-dimensional space is definitionally part of the overall dimensional hierarchy.

I would not call it "beyond all dimensional levels" because it is itself a dimensional level. That's essentially what you're doing when you say "Beyond all levels of reality and dream can still be in a higher dream."

This mentions concepts are in the Arbiter. I thought they were the Superflow?

Different stories using differing languages, really. For instance, in stories that focus on the omniverse and such, the whole thing will sometimes be referred to as a "Firmament" (See this guy) and then the void(s) beyond as "wild space." Then in a story focusing more on lower scale stuff, single universes are "Firmaments" and the Superflow is "Wild Space."

Basically, Marvel Cosmology in the higher echelons is pretty much like, the same essential thing going through several different stages before it finally reaches its "densest" form. Eternity is really just the House of Ideas made manifest in that sense, so it's kinda like a fractal in that all the layers are rescaled images of each other. "As Above, So Below" is a recurring motto throughout recent stories due to that.

Though that's not to say concepts remain constant or at all in recognizable forms between layers. For instance, as said, the Far Shore doesn't have even a concept of existence.

And in terms of your water analogy: While an ice cube can't be water by getting larger, water is not superior due being a liquid. If you can make the cube larger than the water, the water being liquid doesn't make it more impressive.

You kinda missed the point entirely if that's your answer to it, since, as I said, the hierarchical positions of the realms are dictated entirely by how unmanifested they are. In this case, water is, in fact, superior due to being liquid. You can't have dreams above the omniverse for the same reason ice won't remain ice when you melt it back into water.

I specifically noted that in this paragraph, so, either you didn't read it or didn't get it.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Give me some time to go over this again and formulate an answer.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for helping out.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I'd say such a thing is indeed what happens here. Conceptually speaking, the point of High 1-A (As I think you've been told not that long ago) is pretty much that the character transcends lesser states of existence to the extent that they exist in a new hierarchy of [whatever] altogether, and not just in an extension of an already-existing hierarchy.

Higher into 1-A+ (1-A++?) would be if you took a hierarchy and, say, added an "infinitieth" (or ω-th if you prefer) level to it. High 1-A is when you're fundamentally above what the hierarchy is to begin with. Quite a few characters abide by that definition, presently. The Ultimate Gods from Cthulhu Mythos are an example, and I believe so is the Law of Identity from Daimaou?

And, for reference, the hierarchy inside the inner omniverse works on a system of "dreams within dreams." Outside the omniverse, however, you transcend all levels of reality and dream, so what I said above does hold here.

I think this should be sufficient evidence to justify High 1-A.

 

[Antvasima]

Thanks again.

 

[Excellence616]

Bump

 

[Eseseso]

Bump

No point in bumping since we need new staff to come and look at the High 1-A stuff (good luck getting that to happen).

 

[Udlmaster]

After a week of no arguments, we go to grace and tally the votes.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I'm fine with this revision.

 

[Eseseso]

I'm fine with this revision.

What about the High 1-A argument? Do you agree with Ultima (High 1-A) or DT (1-A+"+")? Because that's the only thing preventing this thread from being approved and finished.

After a week of no arguments, we go to grace and tally the votes.

Well asides from IdiosyncraticLawyer, the last vote on the High 1-A argument was on Monday (in favor of it).

However, the only valid staff votes have been 2 in favor of High 1-A (Ultima and Sir_Ovens) and 1 against High 1-A (DontTalkDT), and we need more than 3 votes since this concerns tier 1.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

What about the High 1-A argument? Do you agree with Ultima (High 1-A) or DT (1-A+"+")? Because that's the only thing preventing this thread from being approved and finished.

I'm leaning High 1-A, but I'll wait for them to finish talking before I make my decision.

 

[Eseseso]

I'm leaning High 1-A, but I'll wait for them to finish talking before I make my decision.

I'm pretty sure both Ultima and DT said they'd leave it up to the staff votes.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I'm pretty sure both Ultima and DT said they'd leave it up to the staff votes.

Then put me down for High 1-A. I've also taken the liberty of tagging some more staff to evaluate this.
@DarkDragonMedeus @Mr._Bambu @Celestial_Pegasus @Andytrenom @Wokistan @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @Just_a_Random_Butler @Agnaa @Shadowbokunohero @Ogurtsow @QrowBarr @Crazylatin77 @Zaratthustra @ElixirBlue @Tllmbrg @Nehz_XZX @Dereck03 @Marvel_Champion_07 @Therefir @JustSomeWeirdo @Theglassman12 @Eficiente @DarkGrath @Moritzva @DemonGodMitchAubin @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @KingTempest @Armorchompy @CrimsonStarFallen @UchihaSlayer96 @LordTracer @Emirp sumitpo @Lonkitt @LephyrTheRevanchist @Deagonx @FinePoint @Elizio33 Would you please help with this?

 

[Eseseso]

Then put me down for High 1-A. I've also taken the liberty of tagging some more staff to evaluate this.
@DarkDragonMedeus @Mr._Bambu @Celestial_Pegasus @Andytrenom @Wokistan @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @Just_a_Random_Butler @Agnaa @Shadowbokunohero @Ogurtsow @QrowBarr @Crazylatin77 @Zaratthustra @ElixirBlue @Tllmbrg @Nehz_XZX @Dereck03 @Marvel_Champion_07 @Therefir @JustSomeWeirdo @Theglassman12 @Eficiente @DarkGrath @Moritzva @DemonGodMitchAubin @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @KingTempest @Armorchompy @CrimsonStarFallen @UchihaSlayer96 @LordTracer @Emirp sumitpo @Lonkitt @LephyrTheRevanchist @Deagonx @FinePoint @Elizio33 Would you please help with this?

Thank you, you absolute legend.

Btw, the vote is based on this post (and DT's response to it):

I'd say such a thing is indeed what happens here. Conceptually speaking, the point of High 1-A (As I think you've been told not that long ago) is pretty much that the character transcends lesser states of existence to the extent that they exist in a new hierarchy of [whatever] altogether, and not just in an extension of an already-existing hierarchy.

Higher into 1-A+ (1-A++?) would be if you took a hierarchy and, say, added an "infinitieth" (or ω-th if you prefer) level to it. High 1-A is when you're fundamentally above what the hierarchy is to begin with. Quite a few characters abide by that definition, presently. The Ultimate Gods from Cthulhu Mythos are an example, and I believe so is the Law of Identity from Daimaou?

And, for reference, the hierarchy inside the inner omniverse works on a system of "dreams within dreams." Outside the omniverse, however, you transcend all levels of reality and dream, so what I said above does hold here.

 

[Elizhaa]

I vote for Ultima’s points, from what I read; High 1-A seems fine.

• These scans are not working; I think there was another one earlier:
• it was beyond all concepts of time and space.
• a geyser of light reflecting all of spacetime

 

[Eseseso]

I vote for Ultima’s points, from what I read; High 1-A seems fine.

• These scans are not working; I think there was another one earlier:
• it was beyond all concepts of time and space.
• a geyser of light reflecting all of spacetime

Thank you.

That makes it 3 admins as well as Lawyer (while he's not a thread moderator, he's still staff) in support of High 1-A. So 4 to 1.

 

[Eseseso]

Should one more yes vote be enough? It's either that or we likely wait a week for grace.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Would you please help with this?

I get what DT is getting at, but at least for the Far Shore I don't see why it wouldn't still qualify for High 1-A due to it's nature.

 

[Eseseso]

I get what DT is getting at, but at least for the Far Shore I don't see why it wouldn't still qualify for High 1-A due to it's nature.

And with that we're at 4 admins (@Ultima_Reality, @Sir_Ovens, @Elizhaa, @Qawsedf234) plus @IdiosyncraticLawyer who are in favor of high 1-A.

 

[Eseseso]

And with that we're at 4 admins (@Ultima_Reality, @Sir_Ovens, @Elizhaa, @Qawsedf234) plus @IdiosyncraticLawyer who are in favor of high 1-A.

Welp, that's 5 staff in favor against 1 not, so is it enough for us to conclude this part?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Welp, that's 5 staff in favor against 1 not, so is it enough for us to conclude this part?

@Antvasima @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality

 

[KLOL506]

And with that we're at 4 admins (@Ultima_Reality, @Sir_Ovens, @Elizhaa, @Qawsedf234) plus @IdiosyncraticLawyer who are in favor of high 1-A.

Sadly only thread mod votes, admin votes and bureaucrat votes count for CRTs in general, so 4 against 1. (OP's own vote counts BTW, obviously)

 

[Eseseso]

Sadly only thread mod votes, admin votes and bureaucrat votes count for CRTs in general, so 4 against 1. (OP's own vote counts BTW, obviously)

Oh yeah I know, hence why I mentioned his vote separately. I checked the discussion rules.

That still makes it 4-1.

 

[Antvasima]

@Elizhaa @Sir_Ovens @Qawsedf234 @IdiosyncraticLawyer

Did you read through DontTalk's and Ultima's arguments following Ultima's quoted post above?