Rescaling the DBZ characters from Frieza's small star level feat?

[Antvasima]

Please see here.

The problem with the above feat is that it would throw our scaling for DBZ into disarray.

If Frieza's first form is in the upper borders of small star level, and large star level only takes about 8 times as much energy, then his final form, with over 240 times higher power level, should certainly be well within the large star category, as should Namek Saga Goku, and future Trunks when he first appeared. Namek Saga Piccolo should likely be at least Star level for being about as strong as Frieza's second form, and it would likely affect Gohan and Krillin as well.

Then we get to the android saga, at which point SS2 Vegeta, Goku, and Trunks should likely enter the Solar System level range. And the androids might be in the lower borders as well.

And that is likely just a start of all the changes that would beed to be made. So, basically we need help to hammer out:

A) If we use this calculation, which characters should we change?

B) To which ratings should we change them, based on well-considered rational arguments?

Help would be appreciated.

 

[Sarpanch_Rocks]

to think Trunk at SS level? Nah thats too much.

 

[ThePerpetual]

I'm not entirely in the loop regarding DBZ, but just to clarify, we have established now that power levels at this point in the series are still reliable and are sticking with that, correct?

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

well, frieza can be small star level, with early android saga saiyans at star level, and the andorids at high star +, and everyone from 16 to perfect cell fitting inside the large star scale

and if that doesnt work out well, then the ss sclae may have to be lowered to cell saga goku and perfect ceell in the tournament , still keeps spc at just above ss level, so thats not much of a shift from his current ranking (heck, all stats and his tier remans same)

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we cannot use power levels for exact scaling, but I think that if the power level goes from less than 500000 to 120000000 between 1st to 4th form, it should certainly make up for an 8x energy difference. In addition, Solar System level starts just 1530 times after Large Star level, so it seems logical that various characters should reach it, if we accept this.

 

[LordAizenSama]

I can see this throwing alot of Profiles into the Large star+ Range, hmm..

Heres some Suggestions

For the end of the Namek Saga with SSJ Goku and Frieza, how does At least Star level sound?

For 17,18,Piccolo and first form cell Perhaps at least Star level+

Semi Perfect Cell: Large star

Trunks and Vegeta post RoSaT Training Large Star+

Perfect Cell, SSJ1 Goku, and SSJ1 Gohan at least large star +

also i think we should Definitely Not have characters in the Solar system range before SSJ2 Gohan and Super Perfect Cell, I think that may be a bit too much.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Well, we cannot use power levels for exact scaling, but I think that if the power level goes from less than 500000 to 120000000 between 1st to 4th form, it should certainly make up for an 8x energy difference. In addition, Solar System level starts just 1530 times after Large Star level, so it seems logical that various characters should reach it, if we accept this.

well, yes various characters would reach large star level (currently it starts at perfect cell), but now it wud have to start at earlier on, so if we use 41.41 x 8, we reach star level (high end), so that means the large star scale will now have to start from the androids, but since it has a gap of 1530 betweeen high and low end, we can fit thee androids, imperfect, semi erfect, and even super vegeta in this. Perfect cell wud have to be shifted at high end large star level (tipping on ss level), and so spc will end up being a few times solar system level (still near low end of 4-B)

 

[Promestein]

I agree with Aizen's scaling.

Super Perfect Cell being able to bust the solar system is treated as a big deal, so I don't think it makes any sense for weaker characters to be solar system level when it's a milestone for SPC.

 

[Canis_Latrans2]

Well the problem with that is. thats the upperborders of the calc I think that going to use the lower limits of it is best so having First form frieza at Large Planet then Final Form Frieza and SSJ Goku at Dwarf star and the androids at Small star then scale up from there thats just what I think you should do also say possibly small star and so on using the high end levels thats what I would do

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I also agree with aizen having solar system level characters before spc is a bit too much

 

[Antvasima]

@LAS Well, the problem is that Star level is an extremely narrow category, whereas Large Star level is not, and Solar System level is extremely wide, so although we could place Namek Saga Piccolo at "At least Star level", the others would almost have to automatically be Large Star level or higher from being much stronger than Frieza.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

@LAS Well, the problem is that Star level is an extremely narrow category, whereas Large Star level is not, and Solar System level is extremely wide, so although we could place Namek Saga Piccolo at "At least Star level", the others would almost have to automatically be Large Star level or higher from being much stronger than Frieza.

well, if we use final form frieza = 8x first form, then his final form is in upper limit of star level, so i think piccolo can be kept at small star+ to star level in namek saga, while the large stars can start at the androids (low end large star ofc)

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@LAS Well, the problem is that Star level is an extremely narrow category, whereas Large Star level is not, and Solar System level is extremely wide, so although we could place Namek Saga Piccolo at "At least Star level", the others would almost have to automatically be Large Star level or higher from being much stronger than Frieza.

well, if we use final form frieza = 8x first form, then his final form is in upper limit of star level, so i think piccolo can be kept at small star+ to star level in namek saga, while the large stars can start at the androids (low end large star ofc)

Final form only being 8x first form is too small a gap when namek saga goku who was stronger than his 1st and 2nd form used 20x kaioken and still couldnt beat him at the very least it is 20x between first and final form

 

[Antvasima]

@Celestial Pegasus Exactly.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

@LAS Well, the problem is that Star level is an extremely narrow category, whereas Large Star level is not, and Solar System level is extremely wide, so although we could place Namek Saga Piccolo at "At least Star level", the others would almost have to automatically be Large Star level or higher from being much stronger than Frieza.

well, if we use final form frieza = 8x first form, then his final form is in upper limit of star level, so i think piccolo can be kept at small star+ to star level in namek saga, while the large stars can start at the androids (low end large star ofc)

Final form only being 8x first form is too small a gap when namek saga goku who was stronger than his 1st and 2nd form used 20x kaioken and still couldnt beat him at the very least it is 20x between first and final form

lol..... that puts frieza at the very tip of star + then, dangerously close to large star, maybe we will need a few tier changes, kinda like the ff7 pages

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

well then, it seems if we use the multipliers more than 8, then even ssj goku will be at low end large star level


so, since large star is very wide, it can go on for a while, maybe till semi perfect cell, then perfect onwards will have to be solar system level then... and thats being careful about things (in the scenario of a big gap between first and final form frieza)

 

[Unclechairman]

As I asked in my last thread, is the jump from tenatons to foe really that small, considering this is the kind of scale we're looking at?

 

[Unclechairman]

Meanwhile, I'll just repost one of my replies to the last thread on this.

I'm not sure where the scaling issues come in. The calc puts Frieza's firepower in the tenatons. Is the jump from tenatons to foe really that small?

It'd be folly to disregard this as an outlier merely because we'd have to rescale numerous characters. In case you have forgotten, all of the major characters from the Frieza Saga up until the end of the Cell Saga are scaled from this one feat. Writing it off as an outlier would force us to downgrade all of those characters to Planet level.

I'm also opposed to upgrading Cell beyond Solar System level. It's made pretty clear he put all of his power into that Kamehameha, and so I highly doubt he's able to throw out Solar System level attacks casually. On the plus side, upgrading Frieza to Small Star level based on the calc would help defend Cell as being on that level; of course, on the contrary, classing it as an outlier and downgrading the Namek-Cell Saga characters to Planet level would make the position of Cell being Solar System level tenuous if not nigh-indefensible and may force a reevaluation of Kid Buu's feat as well.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

well, accordding to the ap chart, the difference between first form frieza and a foe is approx 577x

and if we use like 20 x for the difference at minimum (relating to goku haveing to use the kaoiken), it it seems dbz hits the foe mark a lot quicker than imagines...., it really will call for an early ss level

 

[Unclechairman]

So Super Perfect Cell would be around 600x stronger than first form Frieza going by this?

I suppose that sounds believable, aside from Frieza stating that his power increases exponentially with each transformation.

I still think Cell should be capped at Solar System level, though.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

So Super Perfect Cell would be around 600x stronger than first form Frieza going by this?
I suppose that sounds believable, aside from Frieza stating that his power increases exponentially with each transformation.

I still think Cell should be capped at Solar System level, though.

well, if we use powerscaling from here onwards, it is possible for dbz to hit 4-B earlier on, but its hard to say exactly when... maybe perfect cell - just suggesting

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Unclechairman i agree cell should be capped at Solar System level.How large is large star level though would it be possible to hold everyone after freeza in that gap?I would say ssj goku and pc should be at the high end of large star level.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

@Unclechairman i agree cell should be capped at Solar System level.How large is large star level though would it be possible to hold everyone after freeza in that gap?I would say ssj goku and pc should be at the high end of large star level.

upper value is 1530 x lower one

 

[Antvasima]

The Solar System tier range is at an order of 10^12 before it enters the Multi-Solar System range, so no worries, we will not scale any Cell saga characters above this level.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

The Solar System tier range is at an order of 10^12 before it enters the Multi-Solar System range, so no worries, we will not scale any Cell saga characters above this level.

i know that, even at high end, spc, and ssj2 gohan will still be well in the 4-B range, and still far away from the high end, that isnt the concern, the concern is, since frieza's final form is so muhch stronger than base, and since we have seen consecutive fodderizations on such an extent, we have to put a line at the character that will be the start of 4-B in dbz

any characters below this one can be arranged

 

[Unclechairman]

Lustitia, your thoughts sound a lot like what a particular user on Factpile would say. The notion of rating characters based on their portrayal is an attractive one, yes, and honestly, Toriyama would probably balk at the idea of Frieza being able to collapse massive stars. The problems with this, however, are that, for starters, that what level a character is "portrayed" to be at is always up for interpretation with only the author being able to give anything resembling a definitive answer, and so would require a constant and consistent stream of Word of God to be practical, and secondly, portrayal may not be consistent with how the series progresses in power. For example, Kid Buu is arguably only a planet buster by portrayal, as his Vanishing Ball/Planet Burst was among his strongest attacks and yet only destroyed the Earth. Such a feat pales in comparison to Frieza casually destroying the much more massive Planet Vegeta using less than 1% of his full power, and yet Kid Buu, a weaker form of Majin Buu, is supposed to be leagues beyond Frieza at even his strongest.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I think maybe we have to put ssj goku and pc at solar system level spc and ssj2 gohan would still be solar system level and everyone below could be large star level.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

I think maybe we have to put ssj goku and pc at solar system level spc and ssj2 gohan would still be solar system level and everyone below could be large star level.

that can work

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

in this case, we are dealing with the kaoiken multiplier

here is how it goes ok

ssj goku (namek) > final form frieza > kaio ken x 20 goku >> base goku (post zenkai) > base frieza = 41.41 tenatons (approx)

 

[Unclechairman]

The only part of my post where I reference power levels was when I mentioned first form Frieza being less than 1% of what his final form's 100% would be. Other than that, the issue is obvious; Second form Frieza is far above his first form, his power increases massively with each transformation, Super Saiyan Goku fodderized his 50% and was more than a match for his 100%, and then along come Androids 17 and 18 who outclass Super Saiyans. Piccolo post-fusion with Kami also outclasses Super Saiyans and is on par with 17 and 18, and he and 17 get destroyed by post-mass absorption Imperfect Cell, who is only matched by 16. Then Cell absorbs 17 and fodderizes 16, and... you see where this is going. The point is, despite all of this, going strictly by portrayal, Kid Buu is a planet buster, and his best on-panel, fully canon feat is destroying Earth. That's below Frieza being able to destroy more massive planets in his first form and far below Cell being hyped to destroy stars/the solar system.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

the 1.25 difference is a power level difference, and powwer levels are NOT linear, if one could ever make a function of power with the power levels, the graph would look like an awekward curve

but kaoiken is legit linear scaling, and so thats why i used it

 

[Antvasima]

Iustitia, I appreciate that you have helped out a lot with the Transformers and Power Rangers pages, but I specifically asked for help evaluating determining where to scale the DBZ characters in this thread. All of the derailing into discussions about the merits of calculations and powerscaling as concepts will regrettably have to be deleted, to focus on the relevant issues.

 

[Iustitia_Prime]

Iustitia, I appreciate that you have helped out a lot with the Transformers and Power Rangers pages, but I specifically asked for help evaluating determining where to scale the DBZ characters in this thread. All of the derailing into discussions about the merits of calculations and powerscaling as concepts will regrettably have to be deleted, to focus on the relevant issues.

With all due respect, Antvasima, this all originates from your opening post's final questions, specifically A: Should we change the scaling. My answer was no and based on my views in general but also about calculations like this in the first place. To be as plain-spoken as possible, no, I don't think this calc should result in upgrades.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, perhaps I should simply have stuck with questions B and C then, as going by the previous thread about this, most members, including Lord Kavpeny and DontTalk, apparently think that we should use the calculation.

Regardless, I need help to determine how to properly scale the characters from this, and don't want either detailing from these essential mstters, or ill-considered posts (not from yourself, just speaking generally). I need people to put some serious thought into how to best solve this.

 

[Salavtore]

Toryiama is gonna boggle the calcs.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

I'm going to agree with Aizen's scaling plan. I came here late, but i see that the issue on how much this is going to affect the characters after Frieza.

While i do need to relook at the others here, i agree that SPC and SSJ2 Gohan should be capped out at least at SS level, any others before them? Hmm....

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

I'm going to agree with Aizen's scaling plan. I came here late, but i see that the issue on how much this is going to affect the characters after Frieza.
While i do need to relook at the others here, i agree that SPC and SSJ2 Gohan should be capped out at least at SS level, any others before them? Hmm....

they will ofc be at solar system level, since it is sooooooo wide

but putting in the frieza calc and the kaoiken stats multipliers, it seems frieza is basically heading into star level or something , if we take th full 20 x thing, then he is headed into large star level range, but since that is very wide, even if he take final form frireza at high end, we can probably fit all the way up to semi perfect cell in lare star level, with PC being the first ss level

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

But Cell didn't make that infamous "I can bust(pause) the Solar System!" statement until he got that boost from when he came back.

Man i just got on, and even i can tell taht this is really problamatic if we can't solve this out...

 

[Promestein]

Yeah, Solar System busting is a milestone for Super Perfect Cell, otherwise it wouldn't have been shown as such a big deal.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

But Cell didn't make that infamous "I can bust(pause) the Solar System!" statement until he got that boost from when he came back.
Man i just got on, and even i can tell taht this is really problamatic if we can't solve this out...

this is going to be like the ff7 revisions


anyway, i can discuss that statement in favour of pushing PC into 4-B, but it might be controversial

so imma just go with the scaling