Rescaling the DBZ characters from Frieza's small star level feat?

[Kavpeny]

@KamiYasha: No, absolutely not.

Regarding Krillin: Vegeta acquiesced to getting thrashed, and lowered his ki. Definitely not the same as besting someone in AP directly. Also, DB characters have been shown to have been caught off-gaurd, and have much lower durability with ki lowered.

Regarding Tien: LOL, no. Holding back << defeating. It was quite clearly shown that Tien's move was a desperation attack, which was at best stalling Cell. Had Goku not come to save Tien, he would have assuredly died.

 

[Kavpeny]

@Antoniofer: Well, if anybody asks that, it is a simple matter to explain that Large Star level has a range of up to ~1500x (and you saw what a difference of a simple 2x made between SS and SS2). As is stated on the first page, being in the same tier does not make two character's power equivalent, and the very same can be observed in almost all tiers (particularly the higher ones, such as Solar System level).

 

[Antvasima]

So, who will carry out the above statistics changes? I am feeling very tired myself, so I would prefer if one of the other admins could do it.

 

[Kavpeny]

I'm willing to do it, if I see a consensus. I believe we should wait a little, Antvasima. I have asked Azathoth to look into the thread, and am waiting for Sheoth's answer as well.

If they agree, I will make the necessary changes, so take it easy.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I agree with Lord Kavpeny`s ratings

 

[The_Everlasting]

Kav's ratings make sense to me.

 

[Sheoth]

I agree as well.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

i am fine with the newly corrected ones as well

 

[Wade_Kali_Strine]

I almost feel like Dragon Ball Super was made simply for the purpose of upping the casts power. They are retconning feats and showing them at higher levels than they were initially shown and generally messing with scaling. Goku couldn't even bust a Galaxy in SSJ3, which was just under 10% of Beerus. Yet, he becomes 70% of Beerus and he is a Multi-Galaxy to Universe Buster. A roughly 7x Increase made a Multi-Solar character a Nigh-Universe Buster. It's insane and inconsistent.

I almost feel as though the wiki should split DBZ and DBS into seperate categories, but I know that would be too inconveniencing. I just wanted to point out that observation I had. I don't know how much it really means to you guys.

 

[SomebodyData]

I agree @Lord K

I reaaaaalllllly disagree @Wade

 

[AllanSaiyan]

I also agree with Lord Kav proposal

@Wade Goku didn't push Beerus to 70 percent.

 

[Wade_Kali_Strine]

I also agree with Lord Kav proposal
@Wade Goku didn't push Beerus to 70 percent.

Why did Beerus say he used 70% and why did Toriyama say Goku = 7 if Beerus = 10?

That's two times it was given to us that way. UNLESS it was retconned AGAIN.

Toriyama, in one season, has taken DBZ to a level of convolution that American Comics needed DECADES to reach.

 

[Salavtore]

DBS was made for entertainment and toryiama's love for his series that has been hailed by many.

 

[Wade_Kali_Strine]

DBS was made for entertainment and toryiama's love for his series that has been hailed by many.

That's nice, but it doens't make it consistent or well written. It is neither of those.

This is coming from a man who owns two DBZ shirts, three posters, all of the DVDs, and at least ten figures. It's fun, yes. It isn't consitent though.

 

[Salavtore]

Neither are most DC and Marvel comics.

 

[Salavtore]

Also, has there been a calc we all can agree on yet?

 

[AllanSaiyan]

I also agree with Lord Kav proposal
@Wade Goku didn't push Beerus to 70 percent.

Why did Beerus say he used 70% and why did Toriyama say Goku = 7 if Beerus = 10?
That's two times it was given to us that way. UNLESS it was retconned AGAIN.

Toriyama, in one season, has taken DBZ to a level of convolution that American Comics needed DECADES to reach.

Yea it was Retconned.

 

[FTW395]

@Wade SSj3 Goku is waaaaay under 10% of Beerus.

 

[Wade_Kali_Strine]

Neither are most DC and Marvel comics.

Relevance? My previous analogy was just to show how messed up the story is at this point, and I used Marvel and DC as examples of messed up stories. You are simply restating my initial comment with a bit of defense on top.

Do you have anything that actually argues against my points about the series being inconsistent?

 

[Wade_Kali_Strine]

Yea it was Retconned.

When? And in what way?

 

[Salavtore]

No it was an example.

I'm not looking for agrues. If you want to argue, take it to the chat group. But i don't think antivasma would apreciate argues in this thread.

 

[Wade_Kali_Strine]

@Wade SSj3 Goku is waaaaay under 10% of Beerus.

Vegeta was said to have only briefly surpassed SSJ3, so I doubt it was THAT big of a difference between them. Even if he was 1%, it STILL wouldn't even come close to making sense.

 

[Wade_Kali_Strine]

No it was an example.
I'm not looking for agrues. If you want to argue, take it to the chat group. But i don't think antivasma would apreciate argues in this thread.

I said "argue" as in debating or discussing. I never meant the colloquial usage of the word.

 

[Salavtore]

And most of us are supposed to know that's what you meant how? Do you even have any calculations for us?

 

[AllanSaiyan]

Yea it was Retconned.

When? And in what way?

Whis said that Goku and Vegeta power to Beerusis like comparing a tree to a castle.

 

[Salavtore]

Which episode was that in? I need to check and see if that was before any training or not.

 

[AllanSaiyan]

Which episode was that in? I need to check and see if that was before any training or not.

It was after the fight with Beerus when Goku just began to train. So it maybe different now because of all the training.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

The super version of the character are stronger than the movie version toriyama`s statement about goku being a 6,beerus a 10 and whis a 15 doesnt apply to the series as this statement was made long before the series even came out and beerus using 70% was also only a movie line.For a series they had to up the power gap between beerus and goku or else goku would surpass beerus too fast hence whis stated comparing goku and vegeta as a tree and beerus a castle.

 

[Wade_Kali_Strine]

And most of us are supposed to know that's what you meant how? Do you even have any calculations for us?

Yes, that's generally what an argument is.

Calcs for what?

 

[Wade_Kali_Strine]

Whis said that Goku and Vegeta power to Beerusis like comparing a tree to a castle.

1) There were already supposed to be able to do that, so it's an even FURTHER retcon.

2) That STILL doesn't fix the inconsistency. They would need to have increased by a LOT more than that to be on a High Multi-Galaxy + level, like they supposedly are.

 

[Salavtore]

Which episode was that in? I need to check and see if that was before any training or not.

It was after the fight with Beerus when Goku just began to train. So it maybe different now because of all the training.

Thanks fam.

 

[Salavtore]

And most of us are supposed to know that's what you meant how? Do you even have any calculations for us?

Yes, that's generally what an argument is.
Calcs for what?

Read what this thread is about.

 

[Wade_Kali_Strine]

The super version of the character are stronger than the movie version toriyama`s statement about goku being a 6,beerus a 10 and whis a 15 doesnt apply to the series as this statement was made long before the series even came out and beerus using 70% was also only a movie line.For a series they had to up the power gap between beerus and goku or else goku would surpass beerus too fast hence whis stated comparing goku and vegeta as a tree and beerus a castle.

Even then, it is still contradictory and inconsistent. Also, I remember Toriyama saying once that the Anime was canon, which throws this into an even MORE ridiculous loop.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Wade Where exactly are going with this are you trying to say goku being universal is some sort of outlier?

 

[AllanSaiyan]

Even then, it is still contradictory and inconsistent. Also, I remember Toriyama saying once that the Anime was canon, which throws this into an even MORE ridiculous loop.

Hmm when did he say such a thing.

 

[Wade_Kali_Strine]

My point in all of this is the same thing as my point on the post about the original calc.

Accepting all of these retcon style feats in DBS COMPLETELY melts any sense of coherence in DBZ scaling. The previously used "Cell is NOT a Solar System Buster" post made sense before the retcon, but the retcon messes it up. All the other feats become nonsense.

Kid Buu's vanishing ball was calced twice and never exceeded Star Level . ( Corrected Versio got it at Dwarf Star) Yet Frieza in BASE is Small Star Level? This is insane.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Wade still not getting your point your saying the power leap of goku is contradictory/inconsistent right?That doesnt make any sense ssg was new transformation so it wasnt contradictory to anything before because it was a new form.And by feats and statements proved it was multi-galaxy+.Now is that leap ridiculous yes but that doesnt mean we are gonna ignore the feats presented to us.Ssg is the biggest leap a transformation has given in the entire franchise but its suppose to be that way because its a god transformation that was suposse to put goku on the level of the gods.Now incase you havent noticed the gap between beerus and any other dbz character is absolutely absurb.Dbz top out at muti-solar system but beerus is universal the difference between that is massive and to close that gap thats what ssg was for.Now clearly goku isnt on beerus level but as a ssg he was far above anything we had seen in dbz and that was the point because he entered the realm of the gods,so i dont see how its inconsistent.

 

[AllanSaiyan]

My point in all of this is the same thing as my point on the post about the original calc.
Accepting all of these retcon style feats in DBS COMPLETELY melts any sense of coherence in DBZ scaling. The previously used "Cell is NOT a Solar System Buster" post made sense before the retcon, but the retcon messes it up. All the other feats become nonsense.

Kid Buu's vanishing ball was calced twice and never exceeded Star Level . ( Corrected Versio got it at Dwarf Star) Yet Frieza in BASE is Small Star Level? This is insane.

This Feat is not a retconned one it was the same destruction of planet Vegeta in a flash back in the Anime of DBS. Also Cell Solar system buster was backed up with guidebooks, manga, anime.

 

[Wade_Kali_Strine]

Even then, it is still contradictory and inconsistent. Also, I remember Toriyama saying once that the Anime was canon, which throws this into an even MORE ridiculous loop.

Hmm when did he say such a thing.

This image.

Panel 13, 14, and the End translate into this...

"13: For example, drawing an image of a movement in a manga is relatively simple, but to animate this image, you had to decompose the movement and draw all the intermediary movements. That demands a colossal amount of work. (Ok, the example of Kame-sennin might not be the most appropriate...) 14: Of course, those who have read Dragon Ball have noticed that certain stories which are found in the anime didn't existe in the manga. Oolong: What's this? I never saw that in the manga.... END: As one adventure in the manga corresponds to about 10 minutes of animation, and since one episode comprises on average 30 minutes, the entire series of Dragon Ball would have passed by very quickly. The team of animators therefore had to insert some original stories. I admire what they have done, that's a hell of a job! Toriyama: Dragon Ball, it's the anime and the manga""

He has said it on another occasion, if I can find the link I will send you it.