Removing SoL Kryptonian Heat Vision (DCEU CRT)

[Nullflowerblush]

"I can do things normal people can't... except attack at lightspeed-" (DC Extended Universe)

vsbattles.fandom.com

One of Superman's more unusual powers is his heat vision. He can channel the energy in his cells into a beam of red light that shoots out of his eyes

Currently, this excerpt from an otherwise sizable paragraph forms the basis of the Speed of Light attack speed rating for the DC Extended Universe's Superman and, thus, the Relativistic combat speed ratings for majority of the DC Extended Universe.

However, this is a very blatant example of cherry-picking evidence.

In the blog linked above, we will discuss the invalidity of the aforementioned excerpt as well as go over the nature of Kryptonian Heat Vision and prove why the DC Extended Universe's interpretation of Heat Vision does not qualify to be lightspeed under our current standards.

Also, through this, all Kryptonians should receive Energy Projection and Fire Manipulation.

"'I can do things normal people can't... except attack at lightspeed-'" was originally going to the name of the thread where I planned on writing my points.
I decided that creating a blog would be the best way to do it, though.
I have much more freedom and options on the Wiki (i.e., gallery, tables, references, etc.) than I do on the forums, obviously.
The title itself is a reference to what Clark told Lois before cauterizing her wound in Man of Steel.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

As someone who has seen many threads for this, I agree that this does not qualify as lightspeed.

 

[Dalesean027]

Honestly this is pretty well done I'm neutral for now

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Yes, the excerpt does describes his Heat Vision as a "beam of red light", but that alone would only fulfil one — and arguably the weakest — of the few criteria required to qualify as "real light".

You need contradictions of it being light, it being stated to be light by a reliable source is already enough. Its not the weakest, thats very strong evidence because its literally just saying that its light

However, not even that is completely accurate, as the excerpt also explicitly mentions that Clark "[channels] the energy in his cells" into this "beam of red light", meaning, rather than actually unleashing rays of blistering light, he is simply unleashing blasts of solar energy from his eyes.

Blasts of solar energy which are also light. Not contradictory to anything. Solar energy is mostly light anyways

This article that you linked explaining solar energy just mentions it being energy, it doesn't contradict it being light, since light is also energy. The sun also releases light energy, shown in the link above

In a similar fashion, Clark's cells, being those of a Kryptonian, absorbs the solar radiation and powers his body with the excess solar energy present[1][2].

Clark does not channel solar radiation into his Heat Vision, he channels solar energy, which is not lightspeed; remember, solar energy travels from the Sun to the Earth at the speed of light in the form of electromagnetic radiation, but like with machines, this radiation is then converted back into energy within Clark's cell.

This is not a good analogy. You used human technology as an example and said that they convert light into other forms of energy with their tech, therefore Clark does the same. But this is never stated to be the case for Superman, since it is still stated to be light

Clark is stated to have "total control" over the size, shape, and potency of his Heat Vision[1], which would place it under the supernatural and unrealistic side of the "fictional light spectrum".

Supernatural light is still light, and we don't have any statements that prove his heat vision decreases in speed when he controls it

Remember, Clark can reach temperatures of at least 1000°C with a gentle, non-visible beam, whereas a 5W laser, one of the most powerful[12], can only reach around 1370°C at maximum output. Once again, his Heat Vision supersedes the current limitations of laser technology and real life light. It is unrealistic.

Once again, it being unrealistic doesn't contradict it being light. Its just light, except with new things added to it, like more power and all that, which wouldn't lower its speed

Throughout the entirety of this passage, his Heat Vision is described as a concentration of solar energy in the form of energy beams and blasts, but never directly as light or as a laser or photonic[1].

No, the first scan calls it light

Oh, and just to hammer the point home, "blast of energy"

Light is a form of energy

The rest of the arguments are just "it doesn't look like light" like as if you can tell by looking. It would just mean its both fire and light anyways

Along with appearing like flames when unleashed, instead of diffusing upon impact with a non-reflective surface as real light does[18], scattering its molecules across or through said surface[19] — one of the few Laser/Light Beam Dodging Feats criteria — Kryptonian Heat Vision distinctly explodes and bursts into flames upon making contact with other matter, showering the target in scorching hot fire, with several examples pictured below.

If the light is powerful enough, it can simply make explosions like that and start fires

As seen in the Justice League clip above, Cyborg resisted the power of Clark's Heat Vision for about three seconds before being ultimately outmatched and flung away by its force[3]. And, that right there is really bad, because it proves that Kryptonian Heat Vision yields a heavy, tangible force; in fact, in the Snyder Cut, Batman momentarily defends against Clark's Heat Vision using a heat-resistant gauntlet[14], with the force of the attack pushing him a bit before completely thrusting him into a police car, strengthening the claim that Kryptonian Heat Vision yields a tangible force that can be felt by normal humans...

Light can emit kinetic energy too

It is tangible and can be interacted with physically by normal humans.

This is talking about humans touching and moving light around. A normal human can interact with light by reflecting it or blocking it, like you are doing right now. Batman simply used a gauntlet and blocked it, wtf do you think actual light should do? Phase through solid objects?

 

[Propellus]

Oh boy, this is literally so wrong on many levels that I can't even describe.

"But if his Heat Vision is comprised of solar energy, then his Heat Vision should be lightspeed."

That is simply incorrect.

Dude, the sun is literally the natural source of light, and it's still considered energy either way.

On top of that, the excerpt points out the fact that Clark can slice through sheets of metal with his Heat Vision, but he can also slice through the metal lining Kryptonian spacecrafts[2], entire I-beams[2], machine gun turrets[4], Kryptonian armor[2], and police cars[3] with ease, and reach a temperature of at least 5,500°C[13] without even being at his strongest; in the Snyder Cut, the aforementioned spacecraft metal could withstand temperatures of 3,500,000 K[14].

Just because it's much hotter than a laser doesn't mean it's slower, infact, Temperatures does not determine the speed of a beam.

A "gentle beam" of Clark's, as seen here, can heat up a doorknob to the point the surface glows red-hot in an instant[2]. Additionally, an adult Clark used a "gentle beam" to cauterize a hemorrhaging stab wound Lois Lane received[2].

Clark cauterizing a wound does not contradict anything, it's possible for light to appear like that.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

i'm only replying to a few of these points before heading to bed
only the really idiotic ones that pissed me off
we gotta bunch of jokers here. some jared letos.

Supernatural light is still light,

Once again, it being unrealistic doesn't contradict it being light. Its just light, except with new things added to it, like more power and all that,

zoomed in for you so it's all nice and pretty and easy to see m'kay buddy

and we don't have any statements that prove his heat vision decreases in speed when he controls it

which wouldn't lower its speed

Just because it's much hotter than a laser doesn't mean it's slower, infact, Temperatures does not determine the speed of a beam.

Clark cauterizing a wound does not contradict anything, it's possible for light to appear like that.

Do you guys only read what you want to read? Is "selective blindness" a thing?
What part of your brain would lead you to believe that my argument was "hurr durr, his beams are hotter, so they are slower"?

Read the entire ******* passage.
Then go write me an ACES essay, nitwits.

 

[Dalesean027]

i'm only replying to a few of these points before heading to bed
only the really idiotic ones that pissed me off
we gotta bunch of jokers here. some jared letos.

zoomed in for you so it's all nice and pretty and easy to see m'kay buddy




Do you guys only read what you want to read? Is "selective blindness" a thing?
What part of your brain would lead you to believe that my argument was "hurr durr, his beams are hotter, so they are slower"?

Read the entire ******* passage.
Then go write me an ACES essay, nitwits.

They kinda don't deserve this kind of language for just trying to make counterpoints regardless of how you feel about the intelligence of those points

 

[FinePoint]

Honestly, I agree.
It seems to be more like heat vision (as it's called) than laser vision.

But I also have to agree with Dalesean, I don't think that level of aggression was really warranted.

 

[Propellus]

i'm only replying to a few of these points before heading to bed
only the really idiotic ones that pissed me off
we gotta bunch of jokers here. some jared letos.

zoomed in for you so it's all nice and pretty and easy to see m'kay buddy




Do you guys only read what you want to read? Is "selective blindness" a thing?
What part of your brain would lead you to believe that my argument was "hurr durr, his beams are hotter, so they are slower"?

Read the entire ******* passage.
Then go write me an ACES essay, nitwits.

You didn't need to just insult us just because we disagree with you, not acceptable behavior.

 

[Dalesean027]

Okay but that said back on track because that whole deal can be dealt with somewhere else, now with this CRT do you two @Propellus and @XXKINGXX69 have any counterpoints to what Null sent in response to point you to specific sections

 

[AKM sama]

Aye! Let's take a chill pill, Null.

I agree with the thread.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I agree with this.

BTW, what replacement feats do we have if we're kicking out Relativistic? I do recall an MHS feat somewhere

 

[Dalesean027]

I agree with this.

BTW, what replacement feats do we have if we're kicking out Relativistic? I do recall an MHS feat somewhere

Doesn't wonder woman have some HHS calcs?

 

[WanderingGecko]

agree with this thread

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Doesn't wonder woman have some HHS calcs?

Ye, for her first key. And it's High Hypersonic+ btw.

 

[Dalesean027]

Ye, for her first key. And it's High Hypersonic+ btw.

Oh nice but yeah we'd likely have to look for more feats or calcs to see about speeds

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

HH+ isn't too bad, but yeah, better to have more solid feats.

Superman was punching Doomsday into space in a short amount of time, something like that should be in the MHS ranges. Superman's flight speed is stated to be the same as his regular speed, so MHS should scale normally from him.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I agree with the thread btw

 

[Qawsedf234]

BTW, what replacement feats do we have if we're kicking out Relativistic? I do recall an MHS feat somewhere

Superman and Zod have that sub-rel or MHS satellite feat.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Superman and Zod have that sub-rel or MHS satellite feat.

Sauce?

 

[XXKINGXX69]

i'm only replying to a few of these points before heading to bed
only the really idiotic ones that pissed me off
we gotta bunch of jokers here. some jared letos.

zoomed in for you so it's all nice and pretty and easy to see m'kay buddy




Do you guys only read what you want to read? Is "selective blindness" a thing?
What part of your brain would lead you to believe that my argument was "hurr durr, his beams are hotter, so they are slower"?

Read the entire ******* passage.
Then go write me an ACES essay, nitwits.

Supernatural is an arbitrary term. Superman's heat vision isnt "supernatural" in the sense that it defies how all light is supposed to act

Its possible for light to simply be that strong

 

[Hellbeast]

Going into downgrades I'd note that Diana outright blocks lightning in her film after unlocking her potential which would easily scale to Steppenwolf and Aquaman would likely backscale or outright scale from this since Arthur can compete with Steppenwolf as well
Id also be careful with scaling anyone to Supes rn since I hate that.

I'd also tagg M3X since he was a big initial fan of the idea

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Going into downgrades I'd note that Diana outright blocks lightning in her film

That could be good addition for MHS if Rel gets yeeted

Id also be careful with scaling anyone to Supes rn since I hate that.

Scaling the likes of Diana and those comparable to her to Pre JL Supes is fine imo. She's able to keep up with Doomsday, who can keep up with Pre JL Supes.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Sauce?

MoS - Flying to the satellite

vsbattles.fandom.com

MHS+ was accepted

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Coolio

 

[Hellbeast]

That could be good addition for MHS if Rel gets yeeted

Prolly
I can imagine decent results

Scaling the likes of Diana and those comparable to her to Pre JL Supes is fine imo. She's able to keep up with Doomsday, who can keep up with Pre JL Supes.

I kinda hate the pre-JL thing ngl
There's not really a separation implied by the films beyond JL and he outright has the best feats by a landslide

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I kinda hate the pre-JL thing ngl
There's not really a separation implied by the films beyond JL and he outright has the best feats by a landslide

I'm just using what's on the profile smh.

But I should point out if we do skip the whole separation key thing, then the guys like Diana and co. should probably downscale to 7-A+ or something. But that's for another time, scaling can be talked elsewhere

 

[Qawsedf234]

There's not really a separation implied by the films beyond JL and he outright has the best feats by a landslide

The issue is just that JL Superman curbstomping the League, and more specifically Wonder Woman, just messes with scalingn for everyone.

Either he was nerfed fighting Doomsday/Zod so most of the cast requires a downgrade or he was buffed by JL, which would only effect him.

 

[Hellbeast]

Eh it's possible since she Diana did stun him with a headbutt.
They could still backscale since Supes has grown immensley since MOS but hey I need the World Engine recalculated

 

[Hellbeast]

The issue is just that JL Superman curbstomping the League, and more specifically Wonder Woman, just messes with scalingn for everyone.

Then take the DD fight as the outlier
He's explictly < Zod at the start and becomes > Zod at the end and Diana's scaling is never repeated in JL

We also have no reason to assume the Boxes amped Supes since Bruce seemed convinced he was the Ace in the Hole regardless and Steppenwolf only invaded because Supes died, when current scaling implies he'd be stronger then Supes already. Less explicit then the Snyder Cut sure but it's certainly there

 

[Qawsedf234]

Then take the DD fight as the

Sure. But what ratings would we give Zod and Doomsday? 8-A for the one crater feat during his clash with Superman?

 

[Hellbeast]

Supes would still get High 7-A from the World Engine feat at the end of the film and Zod can scale to that but I need to check if Supes is at his prime for that fight at the end there. (and the World Engine being 1000 feet high could change the Kinetic Energy significantly)

Doomsday also needs a variable tier since that's how his powers work but he should prolly top out at whatever Diana is since he's on her level and has a 7-A feat on par with Arthur's own (although It could be higher).

 

[Qawsedf234]

Supes is at his prime for that fight at the end there.

I mean if direct sunlight after the nuke didn't bring Superman to 100% instantly I doubt the light he received after the world engine would being him to 100%.

 

[Qawsedf234]

has a 7-A feat on par with Arthur's own (although It could be higher)

Didn't we get rid of the kraken scaling because of those issues? Are are you talking about Ares scaling to Zeus' creation feat?

 

[Hellbeast]

I mean if direct sunlight after the nuke didn't bring Superman to 100% instantly I doubt the light he received after the world engine would being him to 100%.

Supes during the WE feat was already weakened though (I'm suggesting an at most for Zod or so)

Didn't we get rid of the kraken scaling because of those issues? Are are you talking about Ares scaling to Zeus' creation feat?

No Karathen was High 6-C
Arthur's feat is the Trident sinking Atlantis (which was 7-A) and Arthur and Orm aren't overwhelmingly weaker then the Trident since that wasn't why Arthur won his fight with Orm at all (it's because he moved the fight to the surface)

 

[Propellus]

Let's see what @M3X has to say about this

 

[FanSyst]

Following

 

[Hellbeast]

It's actually High 7-A

7-A was accepted iirc not High 7-A
could be higher since Atlantis might be bigger but hey

Actually if High 7-A was accepted that helps my point since it's a 1.1 Gigaton feat vs Superman being > casual 1.7 Gigatons when weakened during his earlier years (mind you at the end of a progression in that film)
It's certainly consistent with him rocking the JL in both cuts

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

OP seems reasonable.

Also regarding Superman scaling; wouldn't the possibility that he was still recovering from Kryptonite during the DD fight account for all the discrepancies between his scaling in BvS and JL? WW and DD would scale to a weakened Supes, which would explain why he's much stronger than WW during JL.

 

[Hellbeast]

It's possible yeh
We could still backscale from High 7-A since Supes was visibly weaker during that MOS scene but either way we shouldn't outright scale here