Remake of Jin Mori Dan HDE Removal (Part 1 of ???? HDE Removals)

[CloverDragon03]

I do, Lordgriffin said if his vote is the one holding up the thread, he should be put as agree and that is what I will do.

Okay I'm putting an end to this blatant vote manipulation right now, read his message again. His stance was as follows:

"So if you wanted my opinion I'm neutral and could 100% agree with a possible Higher Dimensional Existence but that's it."

This is not an agreement with your thread. Your thread is advocating for Mori's HDE being removed. He said he's neutral and could agree to a "possible HDE", so please accurately count his vote

Edit: I will admit I didn't fully catch the "if his vote is required" piece, so I checked up (apologies for the "vote manipulation" comment). While his input is obviously valued as he is an admin I wouldn't say his vote is required to move the thread along, as you can just as easily get another staff member's input

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

It's a product of him being a high dimensional being. Even if you want to claim its multi-location, our current wiki standards say for to qualify for multilocation, "it would still require the structure of the being to be spread through space and time in some fashion which still suggest a higher dimensionality. Multi-location is the product of worm hole, it exist in two separate spaces. " that is a feature of 4 dimensional structure

You are putting the cart before the horse. Because he has the multilocation ability, he must have HDE? You can have the multilocation ability without having HDE. It's not enough evidence.

worm hole connects two spaces through a 4dimensional structure. The fact that Mori's physiology is connecting two separate spaces it's being connected to a 4D structure. Something that can extrude in the 4th dimension must make the connection, and that's Mori's body. He's not even a spirit yet, that is a 4D structure.

Again. You can connect two places without being 4D.

 

[KLOL506]

@Planck69 @Emirp sumitpo @Maverick_Zero_X @Just_a_Random_Butler @Sir_Ovens Once again, your input is needed in this thread.

 

[Xinsignia1]

You are putting the cart before the horse. Because he has the multilocation ability, he must have HDE? You can have the multilocation ability without having HDE. It's not enough evidence.

Nirvana was called a higher dimension, and Mori can exist in multiple locations simultaneously, and GoH already incorporates 4D logic to travel between dimensionally separate planes there occam razor says use the most simple phenomena, and we already have a precedent for 4D constructs that appear in verse, there literally is no need to suggest otherwise especially when the use of a 4D structure/gate was already included on the GoH cosmology page

Again. You can connect two places without being 4D.

Occam's razor bruh, like I said GoH already incorporated 4D logic when it comes to traversing different dimensions. This aligns with current thinking of wormholes possessing four spatial dimensions. I don't know why it's necessary for you to suggest another reason when we clearly have established precedents that are much closer.

 

[PrinceofPein]

@Iamunanimousinthat what makes a space time continuum 4D?

@CloverDragon03 its cool, the current arguments are just really weird mental gymnastics that I do not wish to get into but yes Griffin did say I can count his vote as agree.

generally,
the fact that the opposition argument now is that Mori could exist in two places at once due to him connecting wormholes is really something I do not want to get into.
He sent his avatar into creation but somehow someone said he is using wormholes and the fact that there are people who claims that is Occam’s razor when nothing implies such is also shocking

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Nirvana was called a higher dimension, and Mori can exist in multiple locations simultaneously, and GoH already incorporates 4D logic to travel between dimensionally separate planes there occam razor says use the most simple phenomena, and we already have a precedent for 4D constructs that appear in verse, there literally is no need to suggest otherwise especially when the use of a 4D structure/gate was already included on the GoH cosmology page

Do they explain what 4D logic is?

Also where is your evidence that Mori used 4D logic to exist in two places?

Occam's razor bruh, like I said GoH already incorporated 4D logic when it comes to traversing different dimensions. This aligns with current thinking of wormholes possessing four spatial dimensions. I don't know why it's necessary for you to suggest another reason when we clearly have established precedents that are much closer.

Do not invoke Occam's razor please. Because multilocation is more simple than Multilocation via HDE.

 

[DaReaperMan]

@Iamunanimousinthat what makes a space time continuum 4D?

@CloverDragon03 its cool, the current arguments are just really weird mental gymnastics that I do not wish to get into but yes Griffin did say I can count his vote as agree.

generally,
the fact that the opposition argument now is that Mori could exist in two places at once due to him connecting wormholes is really something I do not want to get into.
He sent his avatar into creation but somehow someone said he is using wormholes and the fact that there are people who claims that is Occam’s razor when nothing implies such is also shocking

Pein, read for a moment, I never got involved with the main arguments, my Occam's Razor shit was purely directed towards Mori using magic to get around. Dunno bout others.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

To clarify my position: I found the arguments compelling do to the connection of higher dimensionality and properties that Mori showcases. However, after Deagonx comments, I can agree these do not necessarily have to conclude with higher dimensionality, specially since the examples use also do not denote extra spatial axi. So unfortunately, I've changed my stance to agreeing with the downgrade.

 

[KLOL506]

@Lonkitt @Ultima_Reality @Executor_N0 Your opinion would also be appreciated here.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Okay, now I can more conclusively consider this thread accepted since Lephyr has changed his stance

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Okay, now I can more conclusively consider this thread accepted since Lephyr has changed his stance

Can we wait till Xsin defines 4D logic and confirms if its mentioned if Mori used it do his multilocation. That can change things.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Can we wait till Xsin defines 4D logic and confirms if its mentioned if Mori used it do his multilocation. That can change things.

All good by me. There's no rush, just mainly commenting on what the state of the thread appears to be rn

 

[ImmortalDread]

Pain really fought her entire life to revise HDE just to remove this single ability, this is a true moment of passion and never giving up.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

All good by me. There's no rush, just mainly commenting on what the state of the thread appears to be rn

Agreed.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

While this kitchen is burning, allow me to cook elsewhere

 

[Deagonx]

it was called a high dimension, you have no grounds to assume it wasn't spatial especially when it behaves different than than the lower dimensions.

The fact that it behaves differently from the lower dimensions doesn't mean it is spatial. You've provided no evidence of it being spatial.

It was called a "higher dimension", not "higher realm" why do you keep trying to change the words?

Because it is being treated as a realm, not a spatial dimension.

 

[Xinsignia1]

Do they explain what 4D logic is?

Also where is your evidence that Mori used 4D logic to exist in two places?

Yes they did, they explain that the 4D gate is used to connect to the separate realms Which is a textbook definition of a wormhole. It connects to spaces through 4D space. and that itself is multilocation. Also more information can be found on the GoH cosmology page

Do not invoke Occam's razor please. Because multilocation is more simple than Multilocation via HDE.

Why is multilocation simpler, when it's crucial aspect that an object is a 4D construct, because that aspect? Beyond nirvana was called a higher dimension on panel, so how does the space being called a higher dimension + displaying multilocation = not being 4Dimensional? why does the dimensional context need to be omitted, what makes that more simpler? I've seen arguments saying that "oh it's magic" with no basis and folks seem to think that's fine...why?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Yes they did, they explain that the 4D gate is used to connect to the separate realms Which is a textbook definition of a wormhole. It connects to spaces through 4D space. and that itself is multilocation. Also more information can be found on the GoH cosmology page

Sorry but this just doesn't support Mori being 4D unless you have a statement that says Mori and the gate are similar.

Yes they did, they explain that the 4D gate is used to connect to the separate realms Which is a textbook definition of a wormhole. It connects to spaces through 4D space. and that itself is multilocation. Also more information can be found on the GoH cosmology page



Why is multilocation simpler, when it's crucial aspect that an object is a 4D construct, because that aspect? Beyond nirvana was called a higher dimension on panel, so how does the space being called a higher dimension + displaying multilocation = not being 4Dimensional? why does the dimensional context need to be omitted, what makes that more simpler? I've seen arguments saying that "oh it's magic" with no basis and folks seem to think that's fine...why?

Because you need to demonstrate that the Nirvana has 5 axes of dimension. There are many higher dimensions in fiction that do not qualify for HDE because they lack the evidence that there are extra axes.

You can have multilocation without HDE.

 

[Xinsignia1]

The fact that it behaves differently from the lower dimensions doesn't mean it is spatial. You've provided no evidence of it being spatial.

Yo, you realize Mori existing in two spaces that are temporarily separate quires moving through 4 dimensional space? You can't do that with 3D spaces, Mori didn't access the realm beyond nirvana through 3 dimensional space. You even stated that it was because "magic" with NO precedent, especially when GoH has literally used 4 dimensional gates to move between different dimensions since they're spatially separate.

Because it is being treated as a realm, not a spatial dimension.

Who says it's being treated like a realm? You do know that dimensions are also realms too? Nevermind that, in what ways is it being treated like only like a spiritual realm? It certainly isn't only a spiritual realm that can only hold sprits given that Mori accessed that place without even a spirit form.

 

[Just_a_Random_Butler]

@Planck69 @Emirp sumitpo @Maverick_Zero_X @Just_a_Random_Butler @Sir_Ovens Once again, your input is needed in this thread.

I'm sorry, but I currently don't have the time to give input to this thread. I'm currently preoccupied with several projects on the wiki.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Because you need to demonstrate that the Nirvana has 5 axes of dimension.

Where is this stated that HDE requires this amount of axes?

 

[Deagonx]

Beyond nirvana was called a higher dimension on panel, so how does the space being called a higher dimension + displaying multilocation = not being 4Dimensional?

Because of the absence of evidence indicating that Nirvana being a "higher dimension" is spatial and not something else, of which there are many options.

You do know that dimensions are also realms too?

Spatial dimensions aren't realms, no. Realms can be composed of several spatial dimensions.

Nevermind that, in what ways is it being treated like only like a spiritual realm? It certainly isn't only a spiritual realm that can only hold sprits given that Mori accessed that place without even a spirit form.

Him accessing it without a spirit form doesn't matter. Normal humans can reach spiritual planes in fiction. You haven't provided anything in the way of evidence at this point.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Where is this stated that HDE requires this amount of axes?

I'm assuming that since its 4D logic links two temporally separate places, and nirvana is being positioned as being higher dimension than these places, it would have at least 5 dimensions. The HDE doesn't require that specific number but that's the number that would make narrative sense here based on what has been said.

 

[Deagonx]

Theres no reason for this to have reached three pages. Nirvana is said to be a higher dimension, but there's no evidence anywhere in the story to suggest that Nirvana's nature revolves around having higher spatial dimensionality, and the amount of hoops being jumped through to draw that conclusion alone should give pause.

I genuinely don't understand the motivation to dig ones heels in so deeply on such a minor issue, this isn't even affecting the tier. It's just plain as day that there's no good evidence for Nirvana having more spatial dimensions than the universe, they never mention such a thing in the story. The fact that Mori existed there separately does not increase the likelihood of it being spatial in nature.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I'm assuming that since its 4D logic links two temporally separate places, and nirvana is being positioned as being higher dimension than these places, it would have at least 5 dimensions. The HDE doesn't require that specific number but that's the number that would make narrative sense here based on what has been said.

Well, but again, the opposition can still change this argument from

Why is multilocation simpler, when it's crucial aspect that an object is a 4D construct, because that aspect? Beyond nirvana was called a higher dimension on panel, so how does the space being called a higher dimension + displaying multilocation = not being 4Dimensional? why does the dimensional context need to be omitted, what makes that more simpler?

to

Why is multilocation simpler, when it's crucial aspect that an object is a 4D construct, because that aspect? Beyond nirvana was called a higher dimension on panel, so how does the space being called a higher dimension + displaying multilocation = not being 5Dimensional? why does the dimensional context need to be omitted, what makes that more simpler?

With the same context, and it still makes “sense” and can qualify.

Were you opposing to HDE in general, or you were simply disagreeing with the notion that HDE is 4D and not 5D (but you would agree with 5D HDE)

 

[Xinsignia1]

Sorry but this just doesn't support Mori being 4D unless you have a statement that says Mori and the gate are similar.

so then how we know that the 4D gate is a 4D gate? In what other context is dimension used? beause arbitrarily saying that "dimensions" mean two different things makes absolutely no sense.

Because you need to demonstrate that the Nirvana has 5 axes of dimension. There are many higher dimensions in fiction that do not qualify for HDE because they lack the evidence that there are extra axes.

You can have multilocation without HDE.

who said Nirvana has 5 axes? I said 4 bruh.....and like I said connecting to two temporally separate spaces requires a 4D structure.

Because of the absence of evidence indicating that Nirvana being a "higher dimension" is spatial and not something else, of which there are many options.

"absence of evidence" where? so then how in the world is Mori occupying two spaces? it's not magical, and it's not spiritual. There's a precedent that exist for that condition in the series, and in science why is it being ignored?

Spatial dimensions aren't realms, no. Realms can be composed of several spatial dimensions.

Realms can exist in spatial dimensions, realms are regions in space.

Him accessing it without a spirit form doesn't matter. Normal humans can reach spiritual planes in fiction.

This is god of high school, not all of fiction so are you going to bring any precedents relevant to the series or no? Because it makes no sense to force the workings of another series, on a completely separate work. Humans in fiction can reach spiritual planes via their spirit, it was clearly stated that Mori was not a spirit at that point when he spoke with Xuanzang in the realm beyond Nirvana.

You haven't provided anything in the way of evidence at this point.

what do you mean? when I posted evidence your rebuttal to was that "it's magic" lol like how?

Theres no reason for this to have reached three pages. Nirvana is said to be a higher dimension, but there's no evidence anywhere in the story to suggest that Nirvana's nature revolves around having higher spatial dimensionality, and the amount of hoops being jumped through to draw that conclusion alone should give pause.

The standards clearly state that it would not pass, if it was stated figuratively, you still haven't stated that it was figurative. In fact you suggest it's everything but figurative since you keep inserting your own different versions of higher dimensionality.

I genuinely don't understand the motivation to dig ones heels in so deeply on such a minor issue, this isn't even affecting the tier. It's just plain as day that there's no good evidence for Nirvana having more spatial dimensions than the universe, they never mention such a thing in the story. The fact that Mori existed there separately does not increase the likelihood of it being spatial in nature.

Yeah I know it doesn't affect the tier, but it's a quality that he was stated to have, and I feel that the evidence backing it is sufficient

With the same context, and it still makes “sense” and can qualify.

the realm beyond Nirvana isn't 5D

Were you opposing to HDE in general, or you were simply disagreeing with the notion that HDE is 4D and not 5D (but you would agree with 5D HDE)

No, i'm saying both 4D and 5D are higher dimensions, it's just that I don't believe that the realm beyond nirvana is 5D, I don't think there's anything that suggest that.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Well, but again, the opposition can still change this argument from

to

With the same context, and it still makes “sense” and can qualify.

Were you opposing to HDE in general, or you were simply disagreeing with the notion that HDE is 4D and not 5D (but you would agree with 5D HDE)

I disagree with HDE in general. And to take a step back there are arguments all over the place.

1. Nirvana being higher D
2. Mori has multilocation due to his HDE

They're not reliant on each other. Nirvana could still be 4D and not higher dimension in terms of spatial axes, and Mori can still have HDE and be 4D. However, I don't think OP has demonstrated enough evidence to suggest that Mori is at least physically 4D.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

so then how we know that the 4D gate is a 4D gate? In what other context is dimension used? beause arbitrarily saying that "dimensions" mean two different things makes absolutely no sense.

By your information, it's called 4D and is connecting two 4D places. That's enough evidence for it to be 4D. Do you have evidence of Mori being compared to a gate?

Mori, is existing in two different places or is he connecting two different places and allowing people to travel between them?

who said Nirvana has 5 axes? I said 4 bruh.....and like I said connecting to two temporally separate spaces requires a 4D structure.

Then what is Nirvana higher in relation to?

 

[ImmortalDread]

No, i'm saying both 4D and 5D are higher dimensions, it's just that I don't believe that the realm beyond nirvana is 5D, I don't think there's anything that suggest that.

Given the context and logical perspective (although we're discussing scientific theories that are unproven and paradoxical, so strict adherence to logic may not apply), this statement lacks coherence.

Hence, I hold a different stance than yours based on the above reasons.

I disagree with HDE in general. And to take a step back there are arguments all over the place.

1. Nirvana being higher D
2. Mori has multilocation due to his HDE

They're not reliant on each other. Nirvana could still be 4D and not higher dimension in terms of spatial axes, and Mori can still have HDE and be 4D. However, I don't think OP has demonstrated enough evidence to suggest that Mori is at least physically 4D.

I can still observe valid arguments for Mori being a 5D HDE, as I mentioned earlier. However, Xin fails to propose a logical argument that can be considered acceptable within the given context.

 

[Deagonx]

"absence of evidence" where? so then how in the world is Mori occupying two spaces? it's not magical, and it's not spiritual.

What's the evidence for it being neither magical or spiritual?

This is god of high school, not all of fiction so are you going to bring any precedents relevant to the series or no?

I don't need to. You need to prove it's spatial, I don't need to prove it's something else.

The standards clearly state that it would not pass, if it was stated figuratively, you still haven't stated that it was figurative.

You are being willfully obtuse about the context of that word within the ability criteria. It needs to be proven to be an additional spatial axis, not some other kind of dimension.

Yeah I know it doesn't affect the tier, but it's a quality that he was stated to have, and I feel that the evidence backing it is sufficient

Well, you're quite wrong. You have stonewalled this discussion for multiple days insisting on something you don't have any evidence for.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I can still observe valid arguments for Mori being a 5D HDE

What's your argument?

 

[ImmortalDread]

What's your argument?

Similar to one presented in my previous post.

 

[Deagonx]

Oh, I'm silly. I forgot we already had agreement from Firestorm, which means this has enough votes to pass now that Lephyr has changed his mind.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Pain really fought her entire life to revise HDE just to remove this single ability, this is a true moment of passion and never giving up.

I honestly did it for magi, also he HDE thread was before this thread.
Mori came up in the HDE thread hence this revsion

 

[Xinsignia1]

I disagree with HDE in general. And to take a step back there are arguments all over the place.

1. Nirvana being higher D

It was high dimensional

2. Mori has multilocation due to his HDE

Mori's multilocation is a product of his HDE

They're not reliant on each other. Nirvana could still be 4D and not higher dimension in terms of spatial axes, and Mori can still have HDE and be 4D. However, I don't think OP has demonstrated enough evidence to suggest that Mori is at least physically 4D.

Like I said Mori's multi-location is product of the realm beyond nirvana being a higher dimension, he could not move in that fashion until he achieved it. No matter how you look it at is a product of higher dimensional exist. Mori existing in multiple spaces only happened because of accessing that space. So I don't know why you keep trying to insist one does not determine the other.

By your information, it's called 4D and is connecting two 4D places. That's enough evidence for it to be 4D. Do you have evidence of Mori being compared to a gate?

No, the spatial planes that are being connected are 2 dimensional. Take a look at the annotated diagram. Hyperspace exist in 4 dimensional space, the points that it connects to are 3D. I even annotated the diagram for you.

Mori, is existing in two different places or is he connecting two different places and allowing people to travel between them?



Then what is Nirvana higher in relation to?

Mori is connected to two spaces, but people are not traveling through them, only Mori exist in that four dimensional space.

What's the evidence for it being neither magical or spiritual?

Mori's not a spirit, so not just a spiritual 'realm" and there is no precedent for it being magical in the series.

I don't need to. You need to prove it's spatial, I don't need to prove it's something else.

I already addressed this, seriously?

You are being willfully obtuse about the context of that word within the ability criteria. It needs to be proven to be an additional spatial axis, not some other kind of dimension.


Well, you're quite wrong. You have stonewalled this discussion for multiple days insisting on something you don't have any evidence for.

How am I being obtuse when you're arbitrarily suggesting that the dimension is something that's never been referenced like "magic"? Like it baffle how something can be called high dimension and display qualities of one, yet it gets ruled out? seriously?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Why did you do for Magi? It's not like it has a fan base, or you had difficulty to fight for it. It's only you and the other guy. Lol

 

[Deagonx]

Mori's not a spirit, so not just a spiritual 'realm" and there is no precedent for it being magical in the series.

That isn't evidence of it not being done magically or through some type of power in the verse.

How am I being obtuse when you're arbitrarily suggesting that the dimension is something that's never been referenced?

Irony, thy name is Xinsignia. You are arbitrarily suggesting that the dimension is something that's never been referenced: A higher spatial dimension. I am simply pointing out that there are many other options, and in the clear absence of evidence for it being spatial, we cannot give Mori HDE.

However, this is moot now, as the thread has been accepted by a staff consensus.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Like it baffle how something can be called high dimension and display qualities of one, yet it gets ruled out? seriously?

Standards do be kinda wack, but it is what it is. No direct correlation to spatial axes, no HDE

 

[Deagonx]

We should honestly just rename HDE given the amount of confusion. This never shouldn't have this such a long debate, there's clearly no evidence of Nirvana being related to spatial axes. Its not that type of higher dimensions.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

No, the spatial planes that are being connected are 2 dimensional.

?? If the 4D logic is connecting 2D spaces then it's not 4D.